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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Post 01 Mar 2009, 19:18
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
cool. is that serious?
Post 01 Mar 2009, 20:35
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
I have always thought of life as being very efficient at "finding a way" to survive. I think if insects and seeds are sent to almost anywhere that life will begin to adapt to the environment. Perhaps the most extreme environments (core of sun, inter-galactic space) might pose a particularly difficult problem but I still think that, given enough time, it can find a way to survive.
Post 02 Mar 2009, 06:18
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
revolution wrote:
Perhaps the most extreme environments (core of sun, inter-galactic space) might pose a particularly difficult problem but I still think that, given enough time, it can find a way to survive.

I think that the core of sun is a much more difficult place to live than inter-galactic space. But perhaps I just lack imagination. Very Happy
Post 02 Mar 2009, 08:00
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The core of the sun has a good energy base and abundant material resources to live from but of course the radiation and heat will pose significant problems.

The inter-galactic space has the opposite problem, lack of energy sources and material resources to live on, but given a large enough organism it may have enough surface area to find nutrients and absorb energy.


Last edited by revolution on 02 Mar 2009, 13:02; edited 1 time in total
Post 02 Mar 2009, 08:23
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Madis731



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Madis731
I was thinking on the lines of Tomasz's thoughts, when trying to reply revolution, but then I though - we are understanding life very differently, and indeed why hasn't the Sun "died" yet, if there's so much radiation.

Radiation, that we know of, only destroys weak cells and some DNA/RNA occasionally. If it is small and strong enough and has some really clever "armor" and even cleverer multiplication algorithm ... Very Happy Well, it might be possible.

Regards to "inter-galactic" what's the point of living where nothing exists anyway... Sun is at least *something* Wink
Post 02 Mar 2009, 12:58
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Regarding Sun's core, I would think it's not radiation that is the problem (actually it's a great source of energy), but the fact, that molecules and even atoms may no longer hold their structure there, it's just hot plasma - the soup of energized nuclei and electrons.
But, still, perhaps there would exist life so different from what we know, that it would be able to make some stable structures even in such environment - perhaps maybe even some kind of self-replicating magnetic field structures or other such bizarre things.

As for the intergalactic, it's not that there is "nothing". It's just much smaller amount of "anything", that in the galaxies. In fact, it was recently discovered that there might be more stuff in the intergalactic space, that we used to think.
Post 02 Mar 2009, 14:55
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Regarding Sun's core, I would think it's not radiation that is the problem (actually it's a great source of energy), but the fact, that molecules and even atoms may no longer hold their structure there, it's just hot plasma - the soup of energized nuclei and electrons.

But isn't that unstability caused exactly by radiation?
Post 02 Mar 2009, 15:27
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Well, it's effect of temperature, which in turn is cased by radiation from the nuclear reactions, but also by the gravitional interactions and the pressure they cause. In fact, if there is not enough radiation, the gravitational collapse continues until you get neutron star - certainly not atoms or molecules exist there. But perhaps some other fascinating structures may...

Hmm, and maybe, if there was some living being able to absorb all the radiation and use it for its own purposes, it would perhaps be able to keep its own temperature low, so that it would exist even in the hot plasma environment - it would itself get hot, because it would absorb all the radiation that would otherwise increase its temperature...
Post 02 Mar 2009, 16:06
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I think the gravity is just too big of a problem for any organism to "move around" there, intact (not crippled) Razz


Then again, regarding the topic, we might just fuck up Mars Rolling Eyes
Like we nuked Jupiter. Sad

damn humans (or should I say, idiots Razz)

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Post 02 Mar 2009, 19:05
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Borsuc wrote:
Like we nuked Jupiter. Sad

I really doubt that's anything more than another "conspiracy theory".
Some counter-arguments on a forum I've just found.
Post 02 Mar 2009, 20:03
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vid
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vid
Certainly it would have been some sort of complex structures we are not aware of. Surely nothing composed of traditional atoms, at least AFAIK those can form comples molecules with C-based or S-based molecules, and those wouldn't be stable there. But maybe if we dive deeper (quarks or deeper?), there could be some mechanism which would form bond even at those conditions, or maybe thanks to them (bond takes energy, plenty of energy there).

But without any actual data, that is all just fantasy, like fairy tales just a bit more closer to reality.
Post 03 Mar 2009, 00:25
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shoorick



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shoorick
do not forget about other dimensions!
Post 03 Mar 2009, 09:57
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Borsuc wrote:
Then again, regarding the topic, we might just fuck up Mars Rolling Eyes
Just a small point, the article is about sending life to Phobos (a small moon of Mars).
Image

The link I gave is from the same site:
Universe Today wrote:
If you saw Phobos in space, you would think that it's nothing more than an asteroid.
So there is not really much to "fuck up", just an asteroidal type object.
Post 03 Mar 2009, 10:13
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
I really doubt that's anything more than another "conspiracy theory".
Some counter-arguments on a forum I've just found.
What counter arguments? That those things happen "naturally" on Jupiter? It is already suspected that they are made because of external objects, like asteroids.

However, in this particular case, we can either believe it was an asteroid or our "nuke". Since the time window, so to speak, is pretty approximated, my bets are on the latter.

vid wrote:
But without any actual data...
Wow slow down a bit. You know, sometimes we just have to be more responsible than that, I think it's called being cautious about what you DON'T KNOW and isn't your business, so to speak. You know, once you say "oops" you don't really have any chance of turning back. And yes it is fully your fault if you were the one in charge to command it.

"no actual data" or "I didn't know that" won't cut it, since you HAVE been warned, so you could have at least used a more responsible method. In fact "actual data" is kinda subjective, since there was this engineer called Jacco van der Worp who even predicted Jupiter would turn into a Sun by that, or at least had a CHANCE, so in HIS viewpoint there was plenty of data, which NASA dismissed as 'unlikely'.

Better excuse would be "I don't care about that data, in my opinion using my logic, the chances are too small, so I'll ignore it" -- but then again, that is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't affect others and other 'things' so to speak.

Sorry but if some scientist says "you leave me alone and I leave you alone" and then decides to nuke out a planet because, in his probably twisted logic (in this example), he thinks it's going to "go through" it and not nuke it, he ain't exactly leaving me alone, so to speak. In other words, he takes ACTION. And so the burden of all responsibility AND proof without causing disturbance falls on them, especially if they received warnings.

But then again if some NASA wacko (who holds command) decides to use some device which I highly suspect is going to freeze the Sun (lol just bear with this example Wink), but he thinks otherwise, guess what is going to happen: will it be launched or not? Guess we aren't living in better times than when religion had the authority.

revolution wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
Then again, regarding the topic, we might just fuck up Mars Rolling Eyes
Just a small point, the article is about sending life to Phobos (a small moon of Mars).
Image

The link I gave is from the same site:
Universe Today wrote:
If you saw Phobos in space, you would think that it's nothing more than an asteroid.
So there is not really much to "fuck up", just an asteroidal type object.
Here's something I found on some page, edited a bit to fit this thread's subject Very Happy
Quote:
Such negative thoughts! Asteroids are benign entities of nature. If anything they are freedom fighters just like al Qaida in Iraq. The only reason they want to blow up the earth is because we are violating nature in the first place. Rocks are just as important as people, maybe more so since they've been around longer. If a rock wants to stay clear of bacteria, even a very large rock like an asteroid, it has every galactic right to do so, and to infect it is simply arrogant, which is typical of you terrorist nuts on the right.

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Post 03 Mar 2009, 17:47
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Borsuc wrote:
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
I really doubt that's anything more than another "conspiracy theory".
Some counter-arguments on a forum I've just found.
What counter arguments? That those things happen "naturally" on Jupiter? It is already suspected that they are made because of external objects, like asteroids.
However, in this particular case, we can either believe it was an asteroid or our "nuke". Since the time window, so to speak, is pretty approximated, my bets are on the latter.

Is asteroid hit supposed to have the same visual effect as a "nuke"? That perhaps is unknown, at least until we try to explode some real nuke out there. By Ockham's razor, supposing that the source of this spot was the same or similar as of other such looking things in Jupiter atmosphere seems the most reasonable.

And time window is approximated only, if we follow the assumptions of the author, and they doesn't seem very believable to me, especially that the whole thing would somehow be able to withstand Jupiter's conditions for a month, after the rather violent entry into atmosphere. Compare some other analysis (well, this one was disproving one even more ridiculous theory, that Galileo would ignite fusion reaction, but some of the facts apply here aswell), and one more up-to-date - I thought it was mentioned in the thread I linked, but perhaps I saw it elsewhere.


Last edited by Tomasz Grysztar on 03 Mar 2009, 18:32; edited 3 times in total
Post 03 Mar 2009, 17:59
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Tomasz Grysztar
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Tomasz Grysztar
Funny, just as Borsuc quotes about the asteroids as the "freedom fighters", the one of them almost scored a hit. Wink
Post 03 Mar 2009, 18:27
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Funny, just as Borsuc quotes about the asteroids as the "freedom fighters", the one of them almost scored a hit. Wink
I think he taunted and gave us a threat/warning Laughing

@Tomasz: I do not think this is a conspiracy at all. I think that the NASA dudes are just too irresponsible and sadly, the sense of power of decision and authority still prevails as it did in the past it seems.

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Post 03 Mar 2009, 18:39
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vid
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vid
Borsuc wrote:

vid wrote:
But without any actual data...
Wow slow down a bit. You know, sometimes we just have to be more responsible than that, I think it's called being cautious about what you DON'T KNOW and isn't your business, so to speak. You know, once you say "oops" you don't really have any chance of turning back. And yes it is fully your fault if you were the one in charge to command it.

"no actual data" or "I didn't know that" won't cut it, since you HAVE been warned, so you could have at least used a more responsible method. In fact "actual data" is kinda subjective, since there was this engineer called Jacco van der Worp who even predicted Jupiter would turn into a Sun by that, or at least had a CHANCE, so in HIS viewpoint there was plenty of data, which NASA dismissed as 'unlikely'.

Better excuse would be "I don't care about that data, in my opinion using my logic, the chances are too small, so I'll ignore it" -- but then again, that is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't affect others and other 'things' so to speak.


WTF are you talking about?!?!? Did you even read what I wrote? Here is the full quote with context:

Quote:
there could be some mechanism which would form bond even at those conditions, or maybe thanks to them (bond takes energy, plenty of energy there).

But without any actual data, that is all just fantasy, like fairy tales just a bit more closer to reality.

I just said that speaking of possibilities of bonds between subatomic particles, than can form complex structures under sun's core conditions without data is just fantasy. And in fact, I didn't even claim we don't have such data...
Post 04 Mar 2009, 23:44
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revolution
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revolution
Tardigrades are really interesting creatures. Just amazing where they can survive.
  • Temperature — tardigrades can survive being heated for a few minutes to 151 °C, or being chilled for days at –200 °C, or for a few minutes at –272 °C. (absolute zero is −273.15 °C).
  • Pressure — they can withstand the extremely low pressure of a vacuum and also very high pressures, more than 1200 times atmospheric pressure. It has recently been demonstrated that tardigrades can survive the vacuum of open space and solar radiation combined for at least 10 days. Recent research has notched up another feat of endurance: they can withstand 6,000 atmospheres, which is nearly six times the pressure of water in the deepest ocean trench.
  • Dehydration — tardigrades have been shown to survive nearly one decade in a dry state.
  • Radiation — as shown by Raul M. May from the University of Paris, tardigrades can withstand 5,700 grays or 570,000 rads of x-ray radiation. (Ten to twenty grays or 1,000–2,000 rads could be fatal to a human). The only explanation thus far for this ability is that their lowered water state provides fewer reactants for the ionizing radiation.
It will be interesting to see how they survive the trip to Phobos.
Post 05 Mar 2009, 01:29
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