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vid
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vid
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I already explained that with the parent analogy. Why do I even bother?

Maybe if you also bothered to read our replies, you would see I already refuted your analogy, because it only covers subset of "evil acts" that can provide useful experience.

And it still doesn't justify the punishment.

Your analogy is IMO based on incorrect generalization that since some evil can provide useful experience, all evil is acceptable by benevolent omnipotent deity. It only makes some sense at whole humankind level, but fails for particular humans. For example Stalin, whose policies led to deaths of several million people, including infants, lived a quite nice life and was respected and praised all over the world. How was it helpful for to let Stalin do SO MUCH evil? Was it better for Stalin to let him do so? Was it helpful for those inants that Stalin could do it? Was it better for people who were under threat of death forced to commit evil acts and are now in hell for eternity? How?

Another point: dividing of all people based on their acts into only two groups is really really unjust - if someone barely makes it to heaven, is it okay for him to get same reward as someone who was all-good? Or punishing someone who was almost neutral just a bid worse with same (most extreme imaginable) punishment as Pol Pot, Hitler, etc?
Post 21 Feb 2009, 19:51
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
And it still doesn't justify the punishment.
Well judgment is always subjective. A loving and just viewpoint. Notice: we may not consider it just, but some people do, since it's subjective. (am not talking about God, but other judgments as well).

This would go even into the Death Penalty if we were debating about it -- you can see the multitude of viewpoints available on what's "justice" and what's "loving". Suffice to say it's subjective I guess (among us, not sure how God thinks!) Smile

vid wrote:
Your analogy is IMO based on incorrect generalization that since some evil can provide useful experience, all evil is acceptable by benevolent omnipotent deity. It only makes some sense at whole humankind level, but fails for particular humans. For example Stalin, whose policies led to deaths of several million people, including infants, lived a quite nice life and was respected and praised all over the world. How was it helpful for to let Stalin do SO MUCH evil? Was it better for Stalin to let him do so? Was it helpful for those inants that Stalin could do it? Was it better for people who were under threat of death forced to commit evil acts and are now in hell for eternity? How?
I thought we were talking about the mentality of evilness not act itself Smile
Well, it certainly IS possible. If it weren't, there would be no choice. For example, if Stalin was afraid of some "Angelic police" he wouldn't be able to do out his plans. This does NOT mean he would be an angel, because in his mind, it wasn't the goodness that made him not do it, but the fear. This is a major point I see on many forums where stupid so-called "christians" only believe in God out of fear. With that, I agree with atheists, that it doesn't change you or how 'good' you are.

vid wrote:
Another point: dividing of all people based on their acts into only two groups is really really unjust - if someone barely makes it to heaven, is it okay for him to get same reward as someone who was all-good? Or punishing someone who was almost neutral just a bid worse with same (most extreme imaginable) punishment as Pol Pot, Hitler, etc?
You don't have to be perfect. In fact, we are never perfect, since we all sin. Doesn't matter whether you are religious or not; I'm not saying by any means religious people are "more perfect". But if you want to view it, it only matters if you are honest about being good or if you regret your "sins" (well let's just say, bad stuff you've done).

Do keep in mind that there are many evil dudes in mentality, but do not ACT (either out of fear or whatever else). This doesn't make them any less evil.

Anyway this is a bit off topic. I think the Devil is sort of like the Joker in Batman -- always trying to "prove" to God that humans are more evil and that they are like him more or act as he says; and of course showing that they prefer their free will to be selfish or evil or whatever. (this is metaphorical of course). If I remember there was a story about this in the Bible but it's been a lot since i read it. Sorta explains why I think he doesn't know what we think, but he "predicts" (like the Joker predicting they are all bastards, which he was false). However the "real life" Devil is much more clever. (please notice quotes as I do not want to get into a "Devil, does he exist or not?" thread Wink)

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Post 21 Feb 2009, 21:17
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Well judgment is always subjective

I believe you would have hard time finding "subject" that thinks infinite punishment for finite sins is benevolent.

Quote:
Well, it certainly IS possible. If it weren't, there would be no choice. If it weren't, there would be no choice. For example, if Stalin was afraid of some "Angelic police" he wouldn't be able to do out his plans.

I don't see how this hypothetical scenario answers my question.

Quote:
You don't have to be perfect. In fact, we are never perfect, since we all sin. Doesn't matter whether you are religious or not; I'm not saying by any means religious people are "more perfect". But if you want to view it, it only matters if you are honest about being good or if you regret your "sins" (well let's just say, bad stuff you've done).

Again, I don't see how this explains the great unfairness on dividing people to only two groups with extreme reward/punishment.

Few more questions: If you damage persons left brain, he becomes more sad and angers easier, and so is more likely to commit sins. So by doing this, you worsen his chances not to stay above heaven/hell threshold. It is no longer just his free will to commit bad. How about free will of insane people, people with alien hand syndrome? What about people with split brain, who basically have two personages, does their soul split to two too (too too too)?
Post 21 Feb 2009, 21:40
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Borsuc wrote:

You don't have to be perfect. In fact, we are never perfect, since we all sin.

if human cannot control the factor that make him/her think of commit sin, eg. just out of no where, upon seeing a person withdraw cash from ATM machine, he wanna snatch that person money.

so, what makes him has a thought like that upon seeing a person withdraw cash?

if we couldn't control our mind before our thoughts came, so ... what sin human gain???? it is not us who wish and want to think like that, it just came out of nowhere, and we have no idea what cause it.

assume it is devil who whisper all these to us, so it is devil who commit sins, not us human. because if the devil do not whisper to adam, then would adam fall from the garden of eden?

we couldn't be perfect, that is quite for sure for me, but we don't have to be labelled sinner just upon we arrived on earth delivered by our mother.
Post 22 Feb 2009, 00:50
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revolution
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Something that has always intrigued me is the notion that killing is evil. Okay, before I give the reason my my intrigue let first state that I don't condone killing, this is merely a discussion point that I've never understood. So, why is killing evil? I have met many people that are deeply religious, they tell me that dying is not the end of their existence and they will go to a "better place". Okay, I am sure we have all known people with this view. Now this is where I get confused, it seems to me that these people should want to die (and thus go to the "better place"). Or even alternatively, they should be happy when someone else dies because that other person is now in the "better place". So therefore my confusion, why is it evil to send someone to a better place?
Post 22 Feb 2009, 01:45
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
I believe you would have hard time finding "subject" that thinks infinite punishment for finite sins is benevolent.
hehe no you didn't get what I meant Wink
There isn't "finite" sins because the mentality matters. Your mind which defines what you are. It is what matters, not the actions themselves. Of course in life you can only do finite actions. But your mind... it needs to be honest and genuine, not "fear" or other crap like I said above where I perfectly agree with atheists that it's a stupid thing to believe in God for. For example "I fear Hell so I don't kill people" or "I fear jail so I don't kill people" will not make you an angel, or 'good' or whatever you wanna call it. This isn't honest/genuine. Does that make sense?

vid wrote:
I don't see how this hypothetical scenario answers my question.
Well, in that example Stalin wouldn't do any "finite" sins, in fact any sins at all as an "action". He would still be evil though, in mentality, which is what matters. Smile

vid wrote:
Few more questions: If you damage persons left brain, he becomes more sad and angers easier, and so is more likely to commit sins. So by doing this, you worsen his chances not to stay above heaven/hell threshold. It is no longer just his free will to commit bad. How about free will of insane people, people with alien hand syndrome? What about people with split brain, who basically have two personages, does their soul split to two too (too too too)?
That's not free will. If you can't reason or get to animal's level then you are innocent regardless of what you do. It is when you have a choice and deliberately choose the 'sinful' way or whatever you wanna call it. Again, think it's not the ACTION that matters, but the thought Wink

sleepsleep wrote:
we couldn't be perfect, that is quite for sure for me, but we don't have to be labelled sinner just upon we arrived on earth delivered by our mother.
Well actually that's because of (y)our relentless pursuit for knowledge. Well from what I remember from that story, Adam & Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge and disobeyed God. The thing is they even tried to cover it up. They craved for knowledge!

But with knowledge comes knowledge of pain and suffering as well, and of evil as well. If you don't want to inherit sins, then you wouldn't have the relentless pursuit for knowledge which you have.

Analogy: some father (God) has a son and a daughter (Adam & Eve). He keeps them cozy in the house, warm etc... dad tells them not to go outside because it's not very pleasant (let's say they live in Antarctica). But they still want and go out (eat from the tree). Now let's say they have some children which are born outside. That's how you "inherit" these things.

Well that's how you take it if you take it as moral story. Hope it helped.

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Post 22 Feb 2009, 02:13
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Does that make sense?

Only until you start affecting mind physically, then it stops making sense.

Quote:
He would still be evil though, in mentality, which is what matters.

His intentions were all good. It is just that he was willing to use method many people wouldn't dare. If it was only about mentality and not acts, he wouldn't be evil IMO.

But that still isn't what I was asking about. I was following your let-kid-do-mistakes-it-is-better-for-him analogy. Who was it better for that god lets Stalin and alikes do their acts?

Quote:
Again, think it's not the ACTION that matters, but the thought
Damage to right brain affects only thought. So do some drugs. You can't really draw a line between material brain and conciousness, because then nothing would remain on the conciousness side.

Quote:
Analogy: some father (God) has a son and a daughter (Adam & Eve). He keeps them cozy in the house, warm etc... dad tells them not to go outside because it's not very pleasant (let's say they live in Antarctica). But they still want and go out (eat from the tree). Now let's say they have some children which are born outside. That's how you "inherit" these things.

Actually, in the bible, god was threating people with killing them if they eat from the tree, but he was lying about that. In you analogy, to be correctl you should say that father/god throws kids away from his home for going outside once, and never ever lets them or their innocent offspring back. After that, yes, the analogy with Adam/Eve myth works.
Post 22 Feb 2009, 03:03
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bitRAKE



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Causality is bunk and therefor the whole notion of good and evil collapses. We merely assign based on our limited focus after the fact! If I say, "I killed a man because he was going to end the human race", do you commend my foresight or put me in a loony bin? What if I say, "God told me to kill a man because he was evil"?
Post 22 Feb 2009, 03:46
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Borsuc wrote:

Well actually that's because of (y)our relentless pursuit for knowledge.


Borsuc wrote:

But with knowledge comes knowledge of pain and suffering as well, and of evil as well. If you don't want to inherit sins, then you wouldn't have the relentless pursuit for knowledge which you have.


for God sake. what you replied was backward thinking.
since all knowledge belong to Almighty, the path to reach Almighty included the path to pursuit knowledge.

if knowledge brought desire, sins, pain, suffering, then it is knowledge too that could help us liberate our souls and breakthrough all these.

解铃还需系铃人

the person who took the wrong roads would know and understand more compare to the person who took only the right road to one destination.

just imo.

Quote:
"God told me to kill a man because he was evil"

the situation nowadays is, who really got the so called authority, future vision that can conclude the "he" was evil? and never repent? doomed to hell ???

if there exists person like that, ala, God spokemen, then, does God ever need a spokemen to deliver what God intends to deliver to us...
through third-party??? the religion of God requires a third-party human to deliver what God intends?
Post 23 Feb 2009, 16:50
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dosin



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dosin
Quote:
does the devil know what you are thinking right now?


He sure does and he likes it! Evil or Very Mad


What can I say.. The only evil is the evil created by humans...
how can people keep going like this.. being afraid that there going to
hell if they are bad from breaking rules created by humans...

I guess in some respect it keeps people from killing,steeling... ect..

would you feel the same way if the devel was big bad easter bunny!

everthing you think and know is human-

I think there for I am ...
I learn so there for I question...

what a suprise it would be to all - if we were in the matrix! Laughing
Post 23 Feb 2009, 18:15
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macgub



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macgub
Question: Does the devil know .. Question
Answer: No Exclamation ( This christian point of view)
I have another question: does atheist belive in devil ?


Last edited by macgub on 23 Feb 2009, 18:37; edited 1 time in total
Post 23 Feb 2009, 18:33
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bitRAKE



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sleepsleep wrote:
the religion of God requires a third-party human to deliver what God intends?
...only if God gets bored - we were created in His image. Very Happy I have often argued that it is impious to perpetuate the "message" of God. My ancestors were Quakers (and Native Americans) who believe it is enough to embody the message of God and do good work. No one has the authority and some go as far as to never say "God" or speak of Him at all - it's a type of blasphemy.

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Post 23 Feb 2009, 18:36
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tom tobias



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bitRAKE wrote:
...never say "God" or speak of Him at all - it's a type of blasphemy.
Interesting perspective. I am curious about one thing: By what right do mere humans dare to assign male gender to a supernatural power? Do we possess omniscience? Is not the assignment of gender by theoretical documents claiming to elaborate a particular religion, clear evidence of a hoax, perpetrated upon unsuspecting children/childish adults, by providing anthropomorphic details to reassure naive followers in the validity of the myth, to which they subscribe?

Your suggestion then implies a relatively silent congregation, since silence can in no way correspond to "blasphemy". The dictate prohibiting speech represents an evolutionary retreat, back to prehistoric times when homo could not speak. Religions thus aim for a group of slaves, silent, dependable, giving up all their worldly wealth, in exchange for the opportunity to sit quietly, while listening to platitudes and inane stupidities like dumb animals.
Post 24 Feb 2009, 14:15
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bitRAKE



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Are you suggesting we might have created a myth in our image? Seems the most plausible scenario to me. Others might think there was an original message which transformed over time into something else.

Of course, the silent ones are the extreme - assigning that interpretation to the collective is not realistic. Nor is the silent treatment itself when viewed in a larger context.

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Post 24 Feb 2009, 16:45
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
But that still isn't what I was asking about. I was following your let-kid-do-mistakes-it-is-better-for-him analogy. Who was it better for that god lets Stalin and alikes do their acts?
Is it better to let your kid go to parties, get drunk and maybe get hurt or get in trouble?
I dunno, but he would surely be pissed off on me if I don't let him. Not to mention if I follow his every step.

vid, what you suggest is making us robots, or over-protecting us. This is bad because it has no limits. Maybe we, as humans, should ban computers, because they are dangerous to health? No matter how insignificant some things are, they may be dangerous, so let's ban it from our children and lock them in the basements?

Why would God lock us up somewhere where we can't, let's say, choose the Devil if we wish? He may be loving but a loving parent isn't necessarily an overprotective parent. (not to mention he is just but that's a different matter)

vid wrote:
Damage to right brain affects only thought. So do some drugs. You can't really draw a line between material brain and conciousness, because then nothing would remain on the conciousness side.
Well vid, if we are talking about God, we have at least to assume Free Will exists Wink

vid wrote:
Actually, in the bible, god was threating people with killing them if they eat from the tree, but he was lying about that. In you analogy, to be correctl you should say that father/god throws kids away from his home for going outside once, and never ever lets them or their innocent offspring back. After that, yes, the analogy with Adam/Eve myth works.
Of course he "lets" you in if you want to get back, at least it's what I understood from going to Heaven. Nevertheless Heaven is the place it is (i.e full of happiness or whatever other stuff) because of the people in there, not automatically. That is, a serial killer going there (without being sorry for it) will not fit, like putting the processor in the wrong motherboard socket Razz

sleepsleep wrote:
for God sake. what you replied was backward thinking.
since all knowledge belong to Almighty, the path to reach Almighty included the path to pursuit knowledge.

if knowledge brought desire, sins, pain, suffering, then it is knowledge too that could help us liberate our souls and breakthrough all these.
no sleepsleep, what I meant is that by eating from the tree, we took the stuff (knowledge) but with it comes pain and suffering as well.

it is like a child eating some apple to become a parent. You may think that it is "forwards" or "progress" to become a parent, but remember that a parent has a lot more responsibilities and a lot more difficulties, compared to a child who mostly plays around. Wink

bitRAKE wrote:
My ancestors were Quakers (and Native Americans) who believe it is enough to embody the message of God and do good work. No one has the authority and some go as far as to never say "God" or speak of Him at all - it's a type of blasphemy.
That is an interesting viewpoint. Can't say I think very differently than this though (am not too fond of authority either Razz) Smile
maybe sounds weird lol



@dosin: even more surprise would be if we were here for entertainment purposes. Imagine those starving children in Africa: maybe they are people who said "You know God, I just got bored of living a happy life, bring it on and plug me in with some tragedy this time!" Laughing

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Post 25 Feb 2009, 02:33
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dosin



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dosin
Laughing


I cant say its good for the starving children .. but false gods .. praying for food and rain... Is a creation of religion!!! People need to be educated... you could sit around waiting forever for god or get off your buts and do something about it.... Life dont wait - there are no experation dates on our lives.. it could end at any second... you can spend you time looking for a reason.. or except that you are here! you are a live.,.. and you have a choice!!!

I once thought of writing a book about an alien race that was so bored with there lives and were so techno..advaced that they created the game called life..

were they would enter the game and be tranformed into a human..
live that life and then another and so on... but it grew in popularity and
more aliens began to play.. hhhhmmm - the population problem...
lol

but I never got around to it... and began programming instead... Laughing
Post 25 Feb 2009, 03:04
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Azu



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Azu
revolution wrote:
perhaps we can also discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

The answer is len(pi), of course.



tom tobias wrote:
vid wrote:
...theologically existence of evil power causes lot of problems with benevolent omnipotent god (so-called "problem of evil": why did he create evil power? why does he allow it to exist?), ...
How about the beautiful young girl, 16 years old, I watched die from cancer of the thymus gland? Isn't that a terrible phenomenon? I think so.
But, what if, had the cancer not destroyed her, she had gone on to procreate seven children, and each of them carried with them genes rendering their own children susceptible to cancer prematurely

BOTH of those are *evil, though. If there was no *evil, NEITHER of those things would happen.





*assuming that by "evil" you meant "whatever homo sapiens don't like" (this is how the word is usually used).
If you meant something else please clarify.
Post 25 Feb 2009, 10:01
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vid
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vid
Quote:
vid, what you suggest is making us robots, or over-protecting us. This is bad because it has no limits. Maybe we, as humans, should ban computers, because they are dangerous to health? No matter how insignificant some things are, they may be dangerous, so let's ban it from our children and lock them in the basements?

Why would God lock us up somewhere where we can't, let's say, choose the Devil if we wish? He may be loving but a loving parent isn't necessarily an overprotective parent. (not to mention he is just but that's a different matter)

Problem of evil is by no means only related to human decision. Entire life on earth is based on killing others and stealing their "matter" (flesh, vitamins, etc.). Why did benevolent god make the world where staying alive for any animal/human nescessary requires killing some life form, where suffering is omnipresent constant that only people managed to decrease a bit, etc. The way this world works, even when we don't take humans into account, is completely "evil" by itself.

Quote:
Well vid, if we are talking about God, we have at least to assume Free Will exists

That "free will" is still problematic term, I think not well defined against notion of omnieverything god. Is the will free just from this material world, or is it free from god too (eg. he can't predict decision of this free will, eg. he is not omnipotent)? If the will is not predictable in a material world, but is predictable at the god's level, is it free? I don't think so, it is same determinism, just beheaving according other "higher level" rules. If a will is completely unpredictable, god can't know future. Pick one.

Quote:
Of course he "lets" you in if you want to get back, at least it's what I understood from going to Heaven.

Since when is the requirement to get to haven "wanting" to get there? In situation where there is hell and heaven to choose, everyone wants to go to heaven. If it was as you say, we would already be back in heaven/paradise.
Post 25 Feb 2009, 11:15
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Azu



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Azu
vid wrote:
That "free will" is still problematic term, I think not well defined
Put simply, it means actions by *sentient beings are random rather then being based on reality/causality/observable phenomenon/laws of physics/etc.

Basically, it is the complete denial of all cognitive science and neurology.

The belief that our actions are not the result of anything that exists or has existed.





*According to most religions; homo sapiens and deitie(s) (which resemble homo sapiens in both appearance and personality) only.






Borsuc wrote:
Is it better to let your kid go to parties, get drunk and maybe get hurt or get in trouble?
I dunno, but he would surely be pissed off on me if I don't let him. Not to mention if I follow his every step.
It would be better if he could do all those things without any chance of anything bad happening. Presumably deitie(s) are omnipotent and can make things be like this, if they want to.
Post 25 Feb 2009, 11:22
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Coddy41



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Coddy41
Borsuc wrote:
No I mean, if we are in a computer simulation and he has access to this, then he can just look it up like we look up articles in wikipedia Razz
Ha ha ha, OK my brain has an IP Laughing and the devil is an hacker?
You are right, If we ran like a pc... I could hack revolutions brain Wink

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Post 25 Feb 2009, 19:31
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