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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
ok, this is quite interesting subject.

according to most religion from skies, the devils and angels exist.
let us focus on devil, do they know what we are thinking right now at this moment?

it is a yes or no question.

if yes, then obviously, they are stupid. and obviously too, we wouldn't have any little chances to fight against them.

if no, then base on wat they whisper on us for some evil thoughts? it is just a random guess when watching us.

then if our thoughts generate some new idea, ways, methods, is it from them or from the almighty one? or they can affect the ideas from almight passes to us?

damn, i just hope edgar cayce still alive so we could have some deep clue from him.
Post 19 Feb 2009, 23:56
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I don't think any religion states that the devil can read your mind. They usually are very "cunning" and predict what you think, like a psychologist would, but not know exactly what's in your head. That's why they're so good (at least according to sources) at manipulating people, because they can predict what they think.

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 01:48
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revolution
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revolution
Haha, perhaps we can also discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! The depth of assumptions made here is enormous.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 02:29
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I dunno, this may be documented somewhere (of course whether it is true or not, is a different matter, and not for this thread).

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 02:45
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vid
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vid
I don't agree with your claim that most religions include some devil. AFAIK only late helenized jews and only few of many sects of early christians "imported" the greek idea of devil into Judaism and Old Testament. Can you name other religions (not based on those few sects of christianity) that have some evil power?

You know, theologically existence of evil power causes lot of problems with benevolent omnipotent god (so-called "problem of evil": why did he create evil power? why does he allow it to exist?), so I think that this notion isn't very popular among religions.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 11:32
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
One must to assume so much before even discussing the actual Q in the opening post.
  1. Assume we know a religion
  2. Assume religion has a devil
  3. Assume our thoughts can be "transmitted" in some way
  4. Assume the devil can receive our "transmissions"
  5. Assume everyone uses a different channel to avoid collision/corruption of the signal
  6. Assume the devil is powerful enough to record/store/recall billions of simultaneous channels
vid: Your only discussing at level two!
Post 20 Feb 2009, 12:23
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
(so-called "problem of evil": why did he create evil power? why does he allow it to exist?)
freedom. if we want to be evil, or choose the Devil, he gave us the choice.

A robot never turns or disappoints his master, but doesn't mean the robot is happy. Look at children. Which are happier, those who are overly-protected and oppressed by their parents or those who have a sense of freedom? Even if they do stupid things.

@revolution: Points from 3 and beyond above are kinda weak. I mean, even in the Matrix (nothing sort of supernatural depending on your definition) it was able to run this up. Of course if the Universe is some computer it is "powerful" enough to handle it, otherwise we would see lag in our world. Laughing

You as a human know what any article "thinks" by just looking it up Razz

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 16:37
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revolution
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revolution
Sure, the points may be weak from a certain perspective. But I like to put things in physical terms, and then the points become very valid. If the devil (assuming exists etc.) is able to know our thoughts then how would that be achieved? They must be transmitted somehow, right?

I don't like to invoke the silly "magic" excuses like "oh, it just happens, but don't ask me how, it is magic". Because those excuses lead to nowhere. We could just claim anything we wanted and then say it is magic that does the manifestation.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 16:47
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
No I mean, if we are in a computer simulation and he has access to this, then he can just look it up like we look up articles in wikipedia Razz
Post 20 Feb 2009, 17:10
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vid
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vid
Quote:
freedom. if we want to be evil, or choose the Devil, he gave us the choice. A robot never turns or disappoints his master, but doesn't mean the robot is happy. Look at children. Which are happier, those who are overly-protected and oppressed by their parents or those who have a sense of freedom? Even if they do stupid things.

It is not a real freedom of choice, when one of choices means eternal suffering and other one eternal happines. That's even worse than the freedom when I hold gun by your head and tell you you can either freely give me your wallet, or be shot.

But anyway, that wasn't point of my post. Point was that AFAIK most religions doesn't really have concept of all-evil deity, I listed problem of evil just as one example why. They have trickster god (Loki), accuser (Satan in old testament), etc. but rarely two more or less equal gods, one evil and one good.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 17:14
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
It is not a real freedom of choice, when one of choices means eternal suffering and other one eternal happines. That's even worse than the freedom when I hold gun by your head and tell you you can either freely give me your wallet, or be shot.
Actually it's like freedom of letting you do stupid things, which you want to do. If you want we can put this in perspective.

You are a parent and have a son. This son is "charmed" by some girl (let's call that girl the Devil) and he wants to be with her. However she is a killer, but he is blinded by her charm. If you lock him up in his room he'll cry and hate you forever. If you let him out, he'll go with her and get killed or tortured or suffer.

Here's the catch: If you go and kill her yourself instead of locking him up, he'll also hate you for it.

EDIT: That's like smoking as well. People will suffer because of it and KNOW THAT (some anyway), but do you think you can just prohibit it from them and call it "freedom"?

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 17:17
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revolution
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revolution
Borsuc wrote:
No I mean, if we are in a computer simulation and he has access to this, then he can just look it up like we look up articles in wikipedia Razz
Exactly. This is one of the "magic" excuses.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 17:23
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edfed



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edfed
of course devil knows what we think. as well as god and angels.
why am i convinced of this?

devil, god and angels are not individual entities.
they are the symbols of what WE (humans) are.
everybody is a part of devil, god and angels.

from a spiritual point of view:
the life on planet earth is a little trip inside the infinity.
outside of life, there is a world consituted of spirits and materials.

all the universe is full of vacum, ether, gas, energy and spirits.
not phantoms, but spirits.
and ones we born, one spirit or more comes inside our body to be us.
I am a spirit from universe, arrived on earth the 6 june 1982 in frnce.
there are a lot of spirits.
life is the only thing temporary in the universe.
the rest is permanent.
matter is permanent.
spirit is permanent.
and of course, devil is permanent.
devil is the oposite of god.
angels are only what is not god xor devil.
human is what is devil, god and angels.
and when we die, our spirit return to vaccum.

this is my belief.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 17:32
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Actually it's like freedom of letting you do stupid things, which you want to do.

But bitches and smoking are damaging to yourself. However, many "evil" things (like praising different deity, or different lifestyle) are not inherently bad, it is only judged as such by the "good" deity. For many cases of acts religously deemed as evil (those which you chose to not mention), much better analagy would be: I am a republican, and I let my son be whatever he wants, democrat or republican, but if he chooses to be democrat I will beat him up every day.

Also, infinite punishment for finitie set of "sins" is not really the most benevolent type of judgement in my view.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 18:02
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DJ Mauretto



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DJ Mauretto
Hello guy,
please stop with drugs, Evil doesn't exist Evil or Very Mad

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 18:04
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
But bitches and smoking are damaging to yourself.
Devil is the bitch Wink

Drugs may also be damaging to yourself, let's say just like "Hell", and past the point of no salvation if you're too deep into it, but hey they sure are charming first time.

@revolution: why would that be magic? If anything it's the closest we, as programmers, could come up with (aka virtual simulation). Question

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Post 20 Feb 2009, 21:26
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
vid wrote:

Also, infinite punishment for finitie set of "sins" is not really the most benevolent type of judgement in my view.

nice Smile

vid wrote:

You know, theologically existence of evil power causes lot of problems with benevolent omnipotent god (so-called "problem of evil": why did he create evil power? why does he allow it to exist?)

if evil is not created, so much evil tat we are seeing each day on earth is created by whom? human himself? but if without the almighty consent, it is impossible too for us to runs mischief on earth.

Quote:

I am a republican, and I let my son be whatever he wants, democrat or republican, but if he chooses to be democrat I will beat him up every day.

nice one 2.
Post 20 Feb 2009, 23:32
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
(Okay, I'll play along with story time...)

IIRC, the devil is a fallen angel - a tool of God. Therefor, the devil would only be able to see what God allowed. The devil only sees the bad side of things, and God uses this as He sees fit.
Post 21 Feb 2009, 16:54
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
vid wrote:
...theologically existence of evil power causes lot of problems with benevolent omnipotent god (so-called "problem of evil": why did he create evil power? why does he allow it to exist?), ...
powerful. excellent rejoinder.
I like it.
Umm, in thinking about this, though, I wonder whether or not it is possible that "evil" is a bit like a rainstorm.
If one lives in the Sahara desert, is a rainstorm a welcome event? I think so.
If one lives in Bangla Desh, during the monsoon season, right after a typhoon has brought flooding everywhere, closing roads, and destroying homes, is a rainstorm of the same magnitude as the one cited above from the Sahara desert, a welcome event?
I think not.
How about the beautiful young girl, 16 years old, I watched die from cancer of the thymus gland? Isn't that a terrible phenomenon? I think so.
But, what if, had the cancer not destroyed her, she had gone on to procreate seven children, and each of them carried with them genes rendering their own children susceptible to cancer prematurely? Is evil absolute, or is it relative? The massacre of the VietNamese at MyLai, and the destruction of the villagers in Iraq by the Americans, and a decade earlier, by Saddam Hussein, we know of, and we think of these events as ABSOLUTE Evil. But, how do we know? Maybe those deaths were not senseless, tragic acts of random violence directed to completely innocent victims? I know in my own mind, because I am rigid and inflexible in my thinking, certain acts, such as those described are absolutely evil, but, I am not sure that I could defend that opinion in a debate.

With regard to vid's point, i.e. doesn't the existence of evil refute the notion of an omnipotent supreme being with supernatural power, I fear that since we are mere mortals, we cannot presume to understand "God's" purpose, any more than we can understand some of the other universal questions, such as the origin of the universe....In other words, I don't accept the argument that the existence of evil refutes existence of an omnipotent, supposedly benevolent, god. For all we know, the "god" is the devil. Certainly, when we look about us, there seem to be a lot more of the devil's disciples at play, than those of the erstwhile benevolent supreme being.
Post 21 Feb 2009, 18:35
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
tom tobias wrote:
With regard to vid's point, i.e. doesn't the existence of evil refute the notion of an omnipotent supreme being with supernatural power
no. I already explained that with the parent analogy. Why do I even bother? this isn't the first time this was discussed, and every single time it starts out with this. Like all of the other threads or discussions where this popped up are either invisible, or we have a bad memory and forgot them. In short, like resetting to ground zero each and every time.

Don't ask questions if you are not going to change your mind no matter the response and you'll ask same question later again and again. You could say the same about me, but I don't ask questions on this subject, because I know it's pointless as I have said above Razz

But the other thing you mentioned is interesting and my humble opinion on it is the following: since we are not omniscient beings, we cannot know the outcome at all times. Therefore, it doesn't matter what the outcome IS, it matters what you THINK or what's your MOTIVATION behind it. If the thinking is selfishness at the expense of others, even if you make a good outcome that wasn't your intention, you're not going to be an angel...

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Post 21 Feb 2009, 19:21
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