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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 337
dosin
Since this is a good topic - lets share ideas on how linux could over come windows..


1. Develope there own graphics cards
2. Create a standard for all the linux OS to follow for compatibility
or it could not have the linux name..
ect...

Just want to here everyone thoughts on how this could happen!

and if linux did become the next big thing would you stop using it...
and look for the next underdog!


Last edited by dosin on 13 Jan 2009, 03:19; edited 1 time in total
Post 12 Jan 2009, 19:59
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
1) I'm pretty sure someone is working on this now. I'll get the link later. I think its done and works, iirc.
2) Linux is standardized. Linus is the only kernel decider. GNU handles most of the rest.
3) In a way, people have started saying "I run Ubuntu" or RedHat and not Linux.

Without advertising dollars, they need an evangelist and a grassroots movement. People who set up a booth at conventions and show Linux working just like Windows and can counter arguments from Windows people.
Post 12 Jan 2009, 20:46
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
What do you mean "make their own graphics card"? You mean drivers?

I would like to give Linux a try on my next machine (after I buy it) with virtualization. I like the concept of "no need for upgrading to the 'next' OS", but just updates. I like that it has no registry. I don't like that it is unix-style instead of DOS-style (i.e C:\, and such, instead of /root or whatever).

However what I don't like are:

1) support (drivers)
2) application support (MANY apps are for Windows -- this doesn't make windows great by itself, but it makes people writing for it Sad).

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Post 12 Jan 2009, 22:00
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 337
dosin
Quote:
make their own graphics card


Design a series of graphics card...
Why for funding and gaming..
Post 12 Jan 2009, 22:26
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

I would like to give Linux a try on my next machine (after I buy it) with virtualization.

I suggest you to do both, install it on the hard drive with multi-boot and install it on a virtual machine (if you really think that you could need working Windows and Linux at the same time).

About developing hardware to support linux, some distros apparently do it, check http://damnsmalllinux.org/store/ (Not sure if they actually design the hardware but it is clear that they don't design the chips).
Post 12 Jan 2009, 22:36
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Borsuc wrote:
I don't like that it is unix-style instead of DOS-style (i.e C:\, and such, instead of /root or whatever).
Once you see what you can do from the command line you will laugh that you said that.
Quote:

However what I don't like are:

1) support (drivers)
While Linux doesn't have as widespread support as Windows, don't think that what you run isn't supported. All the hardware I have works with Linux and FreeBSD except Nvidia.
Quote:

2) application support (MANY apps are for Windows -- this doesn't make windows great by itself, but it makes people writing for it Sad).
Again, that doesn't mean you can't get equivalent software on Linux. For example, I frequently hear "I need my Photoshop" but they don't realize The Gimp does everything they used Photoshop for. I'm not saying Photoshop doesn't have more features. I'm saying they don't use all those and Gimp has everything they do use.
Post 12 Jan 2009, 22:49
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
Post 12 Jan 2009, 22:57
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 337
dosin
Thanks for the links! Has some good info!
Post 12 Jan 2009, 23:28
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Those might all be noble causes, but how many years are they behind performance-wise? 5? 10?

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Post 13 Jan 2009, 00:53
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
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LocoDelAssembly
http://www.traversaltech.com/ogd1p_faq2.phtml wrote:
What kind of graphics performance can I expect from OGD1?

There is currently no GPU available for OGD1, although we do have a specification for one. OGD1 is not actually intended for high-performance graphics applications, although having FPGAs, it is suitable for hardware implementations of the kinds of computations you might perform using GPGPU. We should also shortly have available logic for OGD1 that will allow it to behave as framebuffer graphics device with no acceleration. Shortly following that, we will support VGA emulation so that OGD1 can be used as the boot console in an x86 PC.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 03:03
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
If Linux ever reaches 5-10% of the market, it will become a viable platform that software would develop for it.
Basically development for windows >> linux thats linux's problem.
windows programs >> linux programs.
computers with windows preinstalled >> computers with linux preinstalled.

If you can solve that, then linux will grow rapidly Smile.

Oh hangon, i've made a contradiction.

Oh damn, I'm a linux user....

dosin, if the Wine project gets better, linux would become a viable option (its good already - but not perfect).
Wine just needs to have its bugs ironed out and become more "newb" friendly, then its all good.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 07:20
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
Actually I think Raedwulf has hit the nail in the head with the mention of friendly. Linux users MUST improve the image of Linux. Without the public feeling comfortable with it, then it will remain in the "alternative" category forever. Just facts folks, face it, Linux currently has a bad Joe-public image as being difficult and unfriendly.

Ubuntu is getting close to the way to get things going but it still falls short at the moment.

WINE should be top priority focus to bring people into Linux. People will use every little excuse available to avoid having to change (not just OS but in everyday life also). If they have even one app that doesn't run in WINE that will be enough to keep them in Windows. This is something that MS have known for a long time. Keep it compatible and the users will stay. Very important to MS.

Quite simply, I think Linux should be able to truthfully claim it can run ALL Windows apps and then Joe-public will start to say "Hmm, sounds promising, let me try". And when they do try it MUST be painless and it MUST be a gentle learning curve. Don't force Joe-public into a command prompt to do something, wrap it all behind a GUI for them (with command prompt still there for advanced users of course). Hold users by the hand and lead them nicely. Don't scold them when they don't understand something, just say "yeah we need to work on improving the interface", this gives JP confidence that things will improve, rather than "tough, like it or lump it" which will send them running.

Yes, I am talking basic psychology here, but it can't be ignored. JP doesn't care one iota about the technical brilliance of it, they don't care that 1000's are working free to give it to them, all they want to know is "does it run my app XYZ?" and "do I need to spend countless hours in confusion trying to get it working the way I like?"
Post 13 Jan 2009, 09:00
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Raedwulf wrote:
If Linux ever reaches 5-10% of the market, it will become a viable platform that software would develop for it.
Basically development for windows >> linux thats linux's problem.
?
Quote:
windows programs >> linux programs.
Why does Linux have to run Windows programs? There are equal programs on Linux.
Quote:
computers with windows preinstalled >> computers with linux preinstalled.
Dell tried that long ago and almost lost their license to install Windows (see US Justice lawsuit).
Quote:

Wine just needs to have its bugs ironed out and become more "newb" friendly, then its all good.
Again, you presume Linux must run Windows programs to be successful. Does anyone think Windows must run Apple programs? Why not? Apple has some great stuff that's far better than anything on Windows.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 14:36
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
drhowarddrfine: If you want people to start using Linux the you must change to suit them. They are the bigger bunch and as such can demand that Linux run all their programs before switching. Simply facts of human behaviour. If you keep saying "Linux has it all, but different", then average Joe won't care to try Linux. Do you see that average Joe is scared of change? You have to give the average Joe's what they want else they will just ignore you.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 14:49
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
If Linux offered the same thing as Windows, why should they change? You MUST offer something different as a reason to change.

Apple sales doubled this past year without running Windows software.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 15:49
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Linux is free, that is already different enough. But to answer your Q: Offering WINE is a way "to get your foot in the door". Once Linux is installed and working THEN you can move people across to native Linux apps.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 15:53
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Raedwulf wrote:
windows programs >> linux programs.
Why does Linux have to run Windows programs? There are equal programs on Linux.
There's a lot of programs for Windows that don't have any (proper) equivalent on the linux platform. Basically, all the IDEs available for linux are toys compared to Visual Studio (with the exception of Eclipse, but that still isn't all the way there yet). OpenOffice is OK, but it's about the feature level of Office2000 while a good amount slower and somewhat buggy. Program documentation is often horrible, and for development... well, MAN pages are a joke compared to MSDN.

revolution: IMHO you give too much credit to the importance of WINE. While it might help to win some Windows users over, there's more important areas to focus on. One would be hardware support - sure, a lot of devices are supported now, but not all of them are fully-featured (graphics drivers that basically only give framebuffer access, NICs without offloading support, etc.) Obviously the hardware mfgrs have most of the blame for this, not feeling positive about making their R&D open.

Distros also have a far way to go, still. Ubuntu is pretty friendly, but there's still situations where you have to edit config files manually or drop to a console to fix things (last time I played with Ubuntu, multi-monitor and JAVA support were two examples). This needs to be fixed - even power users should never need to drop to a console to do anything.

And then there's "look and feel uniformity". Sure, Windows has some skinned apps, and Microsoft violate their own design guidelines... but the situation is worse on linux. A standard desktop environment with the default applications is pretty coherent, but once you start installing other applications, things get ugly quickly because of the plethora of widget toolkits out there. IMHO that situation is just about unfixable...

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Post 13 Jan 2009, 17:04
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Raedwulf wrote:
windows programs >> linux programs.
Why does Linux have to run Windows programs? There are equal programs on Linux.
There's a lot of programs for Windows that don't have any (proper) equivalent on the linux platform. Basically, all the IDEs available for linux are toys compared to Visual Studio (with the exception of Eclipse, but that still isn't all the way there yet).
I love how Windows users find one program (and it's always VS) as proof that Windows apps are better than Linux apps. In Linux, you don't need all that stuff and VS does to organize their SDK mess (now up to 1GB). I know som eEmacs people that would go up against VS anytime. I wish I was good enough at it to show something but, like I said, 'nix users don't need all that VS stuff.
Quote:
OpenOffice is OK, but it's about the feature level of Office2000
As if 90% of everyone uses 90% of Office features. Just like Photoshop, I'd bet Linux apps do everything the typical Office user does. As far as buggy, I don't know. It does everything I need it to do and I don't see any bugs.
Quote:
Program documentation is often horrible, and for development... well, MAN pages are a joke compared to MSDN.
Linux man pages don't compare to FreeBSD man pages but they don't change, are accurate and understandable, with program examples and installed and available on every system. There is nothing wrong with man pages. Want to know how anything works? "man 'myprogram'". Want to know how a library or system call works? "man 'systemcall'" from anywhere.


Last edited by drhowarddrfine on 13 Jan 2009, 23:09; edited 1 time in total
Post 13 Jan 2009, 18:40
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
drhowarddrfine wrote:
I love how Windows users find one program (and it's always VS) as proof that Windows apps are better than Linux apps.
But do you see how your response here is seen by those users? Translation into the Windows user's head: "Linux ain't Windows, tough, learn to use new tools". And that is hardly going to attract people to Linux.
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Want to know how anything works? "man 'myprogram'"
But where is the help button for them to click? You only serve to alienate users by telling them they have to leave their comfy mouse button and use a console Shocked
Post 13 Jan 2009, 18:52
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
I always hated the command 'man' it sounds so... weird (man? woman? Laughing). Why not "help"? Confused

(I know it comes from manual, but heck why truncate it to that word?)
Post 13 Jan 2009, 19:39
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