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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
ManOfSteel wrote:

Raedwulf wrote:
3.) Hardware support - The major problem! Install it on a laptop and SUFFER!

Again, it must be a Linux thing. I've tried an old FreeSBIE (based on FreeBSD 5.4!!!!) on a 6 months max old laptop. 1 minute after booting, it had detected all hardware and Firefox had successfully opened Google's first page (through a cable modem).


Oh, its not everything that doesn't work, things do run, but not all hardware will work straight away. For example, certain keys on the keyboard (brightness buttons), LCD brightness (yea linux kernel thing that was fixed in 2.6.28 ), in-built webcam (you have to find the right drivers), sound doesn't work straight off sometimes - requires correct variation of drivers for onboard sound.

These are things in general, that do not work on some laptops but other laptops are fine.

But you can't expect a user to know this, he expects "out of the box" functionality and gets pissed off if that doesn't happen.

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Raedwulf


Last edited by Raedwulf on 14 Jan 2009, 13:40; edited 1 time in total
Post 14 Jan 2009, 12:29
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
f0dder wrote:
revolution: IMHO you give too much credit to the importance of WINE. While it might help to win some Windows users over, there's more important areas to focus on. One would be hardware support - sure, a lot of devices are supported now, but not all of them are fully-featured (graphics drivers that basically only give framebuffer access, NICs without offloading support, etc.) Obviously the hardware mfgrs have most of the blame for this, not feeling positive about making their R&D open.
Okay, I have considered this and can see that you may be correct. But I feel that WINE should be very high up on the list, perhaps even equal with hardware support, especially for the gamers.

The other option is for people to run VMs and get the Windows environment through that, but that is a heavyweight solution that is perhaps overkill. And poor JP would probably feel quite bewildered about how to set up the VM properly. Plus, of course, still having to own a copy of Windows to install in the VM kind of makes the whole thing rather pointless IMO but it may be another path to allowing Linux to get a foot-in-the-door.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 13:27
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
f0dder wrote:
revolution: IMHO you give too much credit to the importance of WINE. While it might help to win some Windows users over, there's more important areas to focus on. One would be hardware support - sure, a lot of devices are supported now, but not all of them are fully-featured (graphics drivers that basically only give framebuffer access, NICs without offloading support, etc.) Obviously the hardware mfgrs have most of the blame for this, not feeling positive about making their R&D open.


There is no need to open it, granted they may still get hate for not making it open, but they can still provide binary blobs and get less hate ^^. (e.g. Nvidia)
Or at least provide a specification to their hardware so other people can work on it. (e.g. Ati)

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Post 14 Jan 2009, 13:37
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:

So it all boils down to this: Windows and Linux have similar functionality. They do it differently of course, but mostly similar capabilities. And for the things that Windows does have (that Linux doesn't have), it would seem they are things that you don't really need anyway so stop whining. Or, if you do need it then you are one of only 10% and thus don't count as a significant portion of users.
I think I agree with that.
Quote:

BTW: 10% of the 98% of users of Windows is still a very large number! Just saying "90% of people don't need it" is not a good justification for not having a useful tool.
Not trying to justify it. It's that I think we were talking of what the average Joe uses and not other special niches.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 14:15
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
...and you can dig a hole using a tea-spoon, but that doesn't award you a cleverness medal. Visual Studio as a tool is better suited for software development than emacs or whatever.
For Windows development probably but in case you missed the links above, two VS users disagree and prefer emacs.

Quote:
...and you need to swap around between windows (usually shell windows or kinda crappy frontends), instead of having things nicely integrated.
Text is text whether it's in a terminal window or in VS but having immediate access to the debugger without having to click on anything is pretty nice; especially with a multimonitor set up where everything is open in front of you and you don't need drop down menus to access anything.
Quote:
As for not missing the features VS (or other decent IDEs offer), it's probably because you've never used them and gotten used to the powerful features they offer. It's not like I miss VS when dealing with small projects with a handful of files of a few hundred lines of code each, but when dealing with larger projects - especially digging into other people's code - it's invaluable. Class browser, showing call sites, going to symbol definition, showing class/struct members through intellisense, ... - invaluable.
Like I said, wading through Windows complications, you need something to handle all that for you. We don't.

drhowarddrfine wrote:
f0dder wrote:
Not possible to bookmark, no hyperlinking, not easy to search (sure, there's "aprospos" but it doesn't compare), doesn't have a proper index, and requires dropping to a console - whereas MSDN can be used either separately
FreeBSD man pages. Similarly available with Linux and all the GNU tools.
Ah yes, so I need to be online to access the documentation in a usable format - great.[/quote]You have to be online to access MSDN except, yes, you can download it, but the man pages are downloadable, too.
Quote:
And in the usual pre-formatted manpage style that doesn't resize very well... but at least hyperlinked. Still inferior to MSDN. (Oh, there's also gnu texinfo, but that system is horrible).
Not interested in the bling. Yes, MSDN has pretty pictures.

Quote:
But from the "move and change without notice", I guess you might be talking about the online version - I prefer offline docs.
The only reason offline doesn't change is because it can't. If it changes online then something is going on I'd like to know about.

drhowarddrfine wrote:
f0dder wrote:
And Office2000 has a better environment (debugger + help) for scripting.
Ah, specialization. I don't do that. 90% of the world doesn't do that. And that's what I'm talking about.
Do you have any idea how much VBA scripting is used in the corporate world?[/quote]I thought we were talking about the average user.

Quote:
different widget sets (and UI rendering styles) across more "standard" applications is less excusable. And I don't think it's uncommon to end up with a mix of KDE, GNOME and raw xlib applications if you use your computer for more than simply writing a few mails and surfing the web.
Yes but, again, the average user won't switch around. Even if they do, they know what to expect.
Quote:
kernel, desktop, userland, documentation, everything. And there's still too many points where it's lagging behind for my needs (and a lot of other people, mind you).

Have you seen the 'Seinfeld' episode where Kramer starts working at a place by just walking in and mingling with people. He works his way into an executive position but was never hired and never paid. His boss gets on his case for not turning in a report on time so when he does:
Boss: "Kramer, this report is terrible!"
Kramer: "I did the best I could."
Boss: "Yes but this looks like it was written by someone who has no idea what he's doing. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to let you go."
Kramer: "But I don't really work here."
Boss: "That's what makes this so hard!"

What makes me supporting Linux so hard is that I don't really use Linux. I use FreeBSD and I do so because I think it's better than Linux in almost all areas. The kernel is better, the docs, just about everything. Both kernels spit in Windows face, though.
Quote:

And then there's of course the issue about everything having to be open and "free". Since I plan on intend making a living off programming, I find this demand rather insulting...
I don't sell software but I understand your point. Apparently the idea of giving it away but selling support is the idea, and working for a lot of companies, but I don't know if it has legs. RedHat does well with it.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 14:40
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TmX



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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TmX
f0dder wrote:

Anyway, does linux even want to be "everything for everyone"?


Well...
Quote:

Linux is not interested in market share. Linux does not have customers. Linux does not have shareholders, or a responsibility to the bottom line. Linux was not created to make money. Linux does not have the goal of being the most popular and widespread OS on the planet.

All the Linux community wants is to create a really good, fully-featured, free operating system. If that results in Linux becoming a hugely popular OS, then that's great. If that results in Linux having the most intuitive, user-friendly interface ever created, then that's great. If that results in Linux becoming the basis of a multi-billion dollar industry, then that's great.

...

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

f0dder wrote:
(*gasp*!) closed-source software.


You remind me of Stallman
Laughing
Post 17 Jan 2009, 15:01
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Link

New York Times - Jan 21 2009 wrote:
If the French National Assembly gets its way, the open-source Linux operating system will take over the governments of Europe, seizing on a weak economy to displace Windows.

About 18 months ago, the Assembly shifted from running Windows on the 1,100 computers of its members and their assistants to running a version of Linux called Ubuntu.

The French Parliament should save about 500,000 euros over the next five years, thanks to the low price of Ubuntu –- free –- and have lower management costs. Linux tends to have fewer security issues than Windows, for example.

I disagree with the lower management costs part of that statement, and the fewer security issues statement too. Wink
You really have to hire and/or train highly skilled and knowledgeable Linux administrators, which is expensive, in order to maintain a secure Linux enterprise environment. If you make one mistake in configuration or kernel compile, you can introduce all manner security vulnerabilities without realizing it before it's too late.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 16:44
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
HyperVista wrote:

You really have to hire and/or train highly skilled and knowledgeable Linux administrators, which is expensive, in order to maintain a secure Linux enterprise environment. If you make one mistake in configuration or kernel compile, you can introduce all manner security vulnerabilities without realizing it before it's too late.
Are you saying neither of those statements is true for Windows?
Post 22 Jan 2009, 17:24
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
Dr. Fine wrote:
Are you saying neither of those statements is true for Windows?
Sure, you are correct, and one must also add, Hypervista, the cost of Windows, which, for government operations, cannot be black market priced, it must be bona fide, i.e. hundreds of dollars PER COMPUTER. That's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees, outside of the cost of the maintenance.
Another point though, and I think this trumps even the economic issues:
Europeans, ALL Europeans, even F0dder, think of themselves as at least slightly, if not VASTLY superior, intellectually, to their poor cousins in North America, whence cometh M$. So, especially for the French, Germans, and Scandanavians, including the Baltic republics, there is a pronounced satisfaction associated with using one of "our" own homegrown products, which cannot be translated into mere economic sense.
Personally, I have had nothing but difficulty attempting to install either Solaris, BSD or Linux, on any machine also sporting Win$, but, I continue to try, hoping that the next version of *nix will solve some of the outstanding issues, associated with a simple installation.

I thought I finally had achieved a suitable environment with the most recent version of the Canadian-German version of Linux: SUSE. It is rather good, but still, not quite there.....I cannot yet throw XP in the waste basket.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 17:36
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
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HyperVista
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Are you saying neither of those statements is true for Windows?

No, absolutely not. However, I do believe it's much easier to maintain Windows enterprise systems in a secure manner because it's all canned, pre-configured, and there are a wide range of certification programs and training available. It's very difficult to find truely knowlegeable Linux administrators and they tend to charge quite a bit for their time (rightfully so).
A little antecdot, a friend of mine runs a gamer website near Seattle, WA. A few years ago he decided to save some money and switched all his servers from Windows to Linux. It didn't take him long to discover that the O&M costs far outstripped those of his Winows system because he had to hire very expensive Linux gurus to keep the system running properly and upgraded. After about a year, he switched back to Windows. I'm agnostic. I did find the article about the French government switching over of some interest.

tom wrote:
and one must also add, Hypervista, the cost of Windows, which, for government operations, cannot be black market priced, it must be bona fide, i.e. hundreds of dollars PER COMPUTER.

Well, certainly the government must purchase bona fide copies of Windows, but they get such a volume discount that the per copy price is well below "hundreds of dollars per computer", well below one hundred dollars in fact.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 17:45
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
tom tobias wrote:
Europeans, ALL Europeans, even F0dder, think of themselves as at least slightly, if not VASTLY superior, intellectually, to their poor cousins in North America, whence cometh M$.
Maybe it's because we are more concerned with thinking than verbosity/talking Razz

j/k LaughingWink

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Post 22 Jan 2009, 19:27
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
tom tobias wrote:

Personally, I have had nothing but difficulty attempting to install either Solaris, BSD or Linux, on any machine also sporting Win$, but, I continue to try, hoping that the next version of *nix will solve some of the outstanding issues, associated with a simple installation.
Maybe it's Windows causing problems for those installs. I've dual booted FreeBSD and Ubuntu with XP without issue for several years. Windows was always the one trying to wrest control away from the other systems, not the other way around.


Last edited by drhowarddrfine on 22 Jan 2009, 20:30; edited 1 time in total
Post 22 Jan 2009, 20:25
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
HyperVista wrote:

A little antecdot, a friend of mine runs a gamer website near Seattle, WA. A few years ago he decided to save some money and switched all his servers from Windows to Linux. It didn't take him long to discover that the O&M costs far outstripped those of his Winows system because he had to hire very expensive Linux gurus to keep the system running properly and upgraded. After about a year, he switched back to Windows.

meh. Google around and you'll find articles about companies switching to Linux because it's cheaper. btw, Germany switched over all 10,000 of their world wide systems in their embassies last year because it was cheaper and easier.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 20:29
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
Borsuc wrote:
Maybe it's because we are more concerned with thinking than verbosity/talking
Bleh. Who can think and code at the same time?


Last edited by drhowarddrfine on 22 Jan 2009, 21:38; edited 2 times in total
Post 22 Jan 2009, 20:31
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
hey, it was a joke addressed to tom WinkRazz
Post 22 Jan 2009, 21:30
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vador



Joined: 12 Nov 2006
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vador
In my opinion, we are doing it wrong.

Of course every one of us has arguments against Linux/Windows/FreeBSD. But what is important is the needs of the average users. We think average users think like us, but that's not the case.

For me, what we should do is to take a small number of average users, make them use linux, and then ask them their opinion. And then we could know what is wrong with linux (in the average user sight of view), be it lack of documentation, GUI frontends, etc...

After we correct that, then we move on convincing users of the utility of Linux. For it we need opinion leaders which use Linux. For example, celebrities.

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Post 23 Jan 2009, 12:25
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
vador wrote:
... celebrities.
Sad to say but unfortunately that has a lot of truth these days. The appeal of a celeb seems to trump many a good argument. Crying or Very sad
Post 23 Jan 2009, 12:28
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
vador wrote:
But what is important is the needs of the average users. We think average users think like us, but that's not the case.
This is true. And what will attract the average user is the bling over substance. 'nix is written by software engineers who don't all have an eye for the bling. That's why I said we need an evangelist to take this by the horns and turn it into Windows.............Nah! Just kidding.

See, that's the bad part of it. Personally I have no use for the bling of Windows. Except for flash, I know everything I do runs better in FreeBSD and Linux, and is easier, than in Windows. I dislike the fact that it's not so simple to switch to the command line (sans gui) in Ubuntu. If you add all the unnecessary glitz and glamor of Windows to this, I'll get mad I have to buy a more powerful computer to run it.

Of course, some company could create a distro that still allows you to not turn those things on in the first place but you know some software vendors will then require the gui for everything which is not part of the Unix philosophy; that all programs run from the command line and accept input from anything and output to everything.
Post 23 Jan 2009, 14:15
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
drhowarddrfine wrote:
vador wrote:
But what is important is the needs of the average users. We think average users think like us, but that's not the case.
This is true. And what will attract the average user is the bling over substance. 'nix is written by software engineers who don't all have an eye for the bling. That's why I said we need an evangelist to take this by the horns and turn it into Windows.............Nah! Just kidding.

See, that's the bad part of it. Personally I have no use for the bling of Windows. Except for flash, I know everything I do runs better in FreeBSD and Linux, and is easier, than in Windows. I dislike the fact that it's not so simple to switch to the command line (sans gui) in Ubuntu. If you add all the unnecessary glitz and glamor of Windows to this, I'll get mad I have to buy a more powerful computer to run it.

Of course, some company could create a distro that still allows you to not turn those things on in the first place but you know some software vendors will then require the gui for everything which is not part of the Unix philosophy; that all programs run from the command line and accept input from anything and output to everything.


I couldn't agree with that more.

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Post 24 Jan 2009, 08:46
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
check this out,
http://www.susestudio.com/

nice idea to know what people really want....
Post 27 Jan 2009, 20:47
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