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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
MichaelH wrote:
view on the news what is happening at this very moment in Gaza

Well, elect a terrorist organization as your government, start launching rockets at your neighbor, and this is what happens..... don't dish it if you can't take it.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 04:42
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
How about that vid, still not hate mongering, still not worthy of an admin rebuke????? ..... staggering stuff I must say Sad
Post 04 Jan 2009, 04:54
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
MichaelH - name one thing that was inaccruate, hyperbole, or untrue in my post you reference.

I'll help you with your research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas wrote:
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[18] the European Union,[19][20][21][22] Israel,[23] Japan,[24] and the United States,[25] and is banned in Jordan.[26] Australia[27] and the United Kingdom[28] list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian people. A terrorist organization elected as the government.

AP News Service Dec. 27, 2008 wrote:
Palestinian militants have fired some 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week.

So there you have the facts: Terrorist organization elected as government, which began launching rockets at neighbor, or at a minimum does nothing to stop it. Neighbor gets fed up and takes action. That's generally what is expected to happen in the real world. If you can't stand to accept the consequenses of your actions (launching rockets at your neighbor), don't do it. If you do it, accept the consequences.

So, what is so offensive about my post? Facts? I know from past experience with you that facts bother you most. So tell me MichaelH, what is so offensive and "staggering"? State one thing in my post that is innacurate. I challenge you, ... again.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 05:14
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r22



Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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r22
Some (IMHO) interesting points.

- Logic and empirical reasoning seem to get thrown out the window very quickly when religion or politics is discussed. Comparisons to "Hitler" and "Stalin" start popping up like sunflowers to help amp up the rhetoric scale. Drawing on emotions and proving one's point should be mutually exclusive. Maybe it's easier said than done if you actually have emotional ties to the situation.

- Is war necessary? If a war can save a country from economic collapse is it justified? If a war can gain resources badly needed by a country is it justified? 'Moral war' and 'holy war' are oxymorons.

- Israel got their land/country because the "LOSERS" of a World War were forced to give it up. "Holy land" and "chosen people" aside the WINNERS take from the LOSERS that seems to be how war works. So the whole cause and effect thing started with picking the wrong or right side of a World War.

- All of the following cause MORE deaths yearly than terrorism:
1 Car accidents
2 Medical malpractice and mistakes
3 Starvation (famine, lack of clean water or food)
I think terrorists are evil people (if your back is against a wall kill yourself in protest not some innocent) but they should have to wait in line to be dealt with. Also fixing the above problems first may actually lead to a dramatic decrease in terrorist acts.

- As for FREEDOM, it should be absolute only constrained if it effects the FREEDOM of others. That said, if you want to act outside of social norms you should expect to be treated abnormally.

BACK TO ACTUAL TOPIC OF THREAD:
The airline should of rescheduled them for free and given them an apology.
The family could have likely avoided being profiled by dressing according to the social situation, BUT the question then becomes should they have to conform? Is conformity part of accepting citizenship (all but one of them were American born citizens)? I think the answer to both questions is NO but I'm pretty indifferent.

Meh, I could elaborate further but I find the topic depressing and irrelevant. But I'm sure the wronged family will be well compensated in the lawsuit sure to come. Maybe I'm materialistic but a few million dollars would help me wash away a fair bit of public embarrassment, ridicule and inconvenience.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 05:58
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
r22 wrote:

Comparisons to "Hitler" and "Stalin" start popping up like sunflowers to help amp up the rhetoric scale.


Agreed, vid's rantings often destroys any intelligent debate (my words not yours), however he is young and hence I hope he grows out of it.

War is never necessary, nor is it justifiable .... ever!!!!

r22 wrote:

I think terrorists are evil people


Agreed, hence the terrorists that are the American people and their munitions dump they call Israel, are totally evil.

r22 wrote:

The family could have likely avoided being profiled by dressing according to the social situation, BUT the question then becomes should they have to conform


It's not conformity, it's basic human rights to be given freedom FROM religion and anyone disrespecting this right needs to suffer the consequences (even jail).
Post 04 Jan 2009, 06:44
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vid
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vid
HyperVista: My point is that even though civilan targets are "unintended", every decision maker is well aware of them in advance even before starting any military action of the kind. They must have known more friendly civilans than enemy troops would die, when they started bombing Cambodia. And they must have known their reasons for war are very unjust, against democracy, against peace, against right to self-determination, against everything US claims to stand for. But still they did it. This, in my view, is ignorance of human lives fighting for their case, just as bad as terrorists do, and really prompts more and more terrorists to do what they do.

Quote:
Logic and empirical reasoning seem to get thrown out the window very quickly when religion or politics is discussed. Comparisons to "Hitler" and "Stalin" start popping up like sunflowers to help amp up the rhetoric scale. Drawing on emotions and proving one's point should be mutually exclusive. Maybe it's easier said than done if you actually have emotional ties to the situation.

I agree it is "cheap tactics" (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Godwin's_Law Smile ) and provoking emotions, but I also think it is a good way to demonstrate why many people despise US military actions, by analogy how almost everyone now despises Nazi actions. Fact that analogy wakes emotions in people is IMO good thing, not bad, because emotions we have against Nazis for their actions in our homes are the same emotions countries invaded by US have against them, for their analogous actions.

Quote:
- Israel got their land/country because the "LOSERS" of a World War were forced to give it up. "Holy land" and "chosen people" aside the WINNERS take from the LOSERS that seems to be how war works. So the whole cause and effect thing started with picking the wrong or right side of a World War.

I may be wrong, but wasn't Palestine british colony during WW2, eg. anti-nazi WINNER country?
Post 04 Jan 2009, 11:59
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
vid - you are arguing against the nature of all wars, i.e civilian casualties. i agree with you on that point. no argument there. again, i'm arguing tactics. surely you must agree that there is a difference between unintended civilian casualties and deliberate murder of innocent people who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The final outcome may be the same, but I'm arguing intent and tactics.

Now for the question about the necessity of war. Since you are fond of bringing up Hitler as an example, Very Happy , was the war against Hitler's Nazi Germany justified? Was the war against US in Vietnam justified? How about the US war against Bosnia where the US defended Muslims against a genocidal regeme? It's all well and good to say that no war is justified, but in reality that's unfortunately a starry eyed pipe dream.

MichaelH - I'm still waiting for you to tell me what is incorrect, offensive, and "staggering" Laughing in my previoius post.
I wrote:
Well, elect a terrorist organization as your government, start launching rockets at your neighbor, and this is what happens..... don't dish it if you can't take it.

Name just one innacuracy in that post. (Facts are stubborned and inconvient things, aren't they MichaelH?)

I'm also waiting for you to produce one post from me where I advocated the bombing of innocent people ... Come on now, "stand up to me".... Very Happy
Oh, and I almost forgot.... can you please enlighten us and "connect those dots" between how I post and whats happening in Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere? I'd love to hear that explaination. If world peace can be obtained by my changing the way I post, I'm all ears. Laughing Laughing
Post 04 Jan 2009, 12:42
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vid
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vid
Quote:
you are arguing against the nature of all wars, i.e civilian casualties. i agree with you on that point.

Not really... prior to WW2, wars were often happening outside of cities, where two armies met without any civilans (what victor did with population is different question). Only WW2 started "total war", which included bombing of cities to dust. But that is slight offtopic.

Quote:
Again, i'm arguing tactics. surely you must agree that there is a difference between unintended civilian casualties and deliberate murder of innocent people who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The final outcome may be the same, but I'm arguing intent and tactics.

Not to extent you do. There is some difference in other points, but in my view BOTH tactics include deliberate civilian killings, and NEITHER intent is primarily killing civilans. For terrorists killing cilivilians is IMO more often tactics than intent. Intent is to show people in a small scale what war they support is about, to retribute for what their country did to other countries, or to declare some message like with Pentagon/WTC. There might be some anger-blind terrorists who simply hate civilians of enemy nation and don't follow any particular goal by killing them, but I doubt they make some considerable part of successful terrorists. That seems to me more like a picture of terrorists western media wants us to believe.

Quote:
Now for the question about the necessity of war. Since you are fond of bringing up Hitler as an example, was the war against Hitler's Nazi Germany justified?

It was defense war - all major countries fighting against Hitler were attacked by him first. Yes, such kind of war is nescessity, only other option is to surrender. And that would be suicide in case of Hitler, he openly stated his plans to eradicate Slavic race. And US knew very well who would follow if Hitler won over USSR, and Hitler indeed did have such plans.

Quote:
Was the war against US in Vietnam justified?

As much as US war of independence was. North Vietnamese were fighting for independence and right for self-determination, and US was fighting against it, because it knew Vietnamese people would elect guy US didn't like. If major part of population is under foreign rule and willing to die to become independent, I think it is up to their ruler to move away, or suffer consequences.

Quote:
How about the US war against Bosnia where the US defended Muslims against a genocidal regeme?

Unfortunately, I lack info about this one, and it is probably too soon to even be able to get some unbiased information about it.

Quote:
It's all well and good to say that no war is justified, but in reality that's unfortunately a starry eyed pipe dream.

Yes, I agree. Sometimes there is no way to evade war, or evading it would have even worser consequences. But that in my opinion WASN'T the case in many US wars.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 13:12
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
I don't strongly disagree with any of the points you made, except this:
vid wrote:
all major countries fighting against Hitler were attacked by him first.

Hitler did not attack the U.S. before we entered the war. Nevertheless, we sent troops there and nearly 150,000 US soldiers died fightging against Hitler. New Zealand, Australia, and Canada also fought against Hitler and none of them were attacked by him.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 13:28
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Hitler did not attack the U.S. before we entered the war. Nevertheless, we sent troops there and nearly 150,000 US soldiers died fightging against Hitler.

German submarines were attacking US ships supplying UK, even though there was not a state of war between Germany and US. So US president commanded US ships to shoot-on-sight at German submarines. Germany responded by declaring war on US first, and then US immediately declared war with Germany too. (German declaration of war, subsequent US declaration of war)

However, interestingly I found out that first US ship was sunk well over month after US president declared shoot-on-sight at german war ships... I need to research this more, maybe there were some clashes before without actually sinking a ship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245)

Quote:
New Zealand, Austrailia, and Canada also fought against Hitler and none of them were attacked by him.


New Zealand, Canada and Australia were autonomies under British rule, so they were bound to war by British-Polish treaty of mutual assistance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Westminster

(Actually such assistance aagainst Germany should have been provided even before, when Hitler was weaker and doing aggression against Czechoslovakia, but Britain and France sacrifaced us in a hope Hitler wouldn't want more. Some people still call that a "Munich Betrayal" here. That's example when evading war and ignoring traty is a bad decision)
Post 04 Jan 2009, 14:01
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vid
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vid
vid wrote:
I need to research this more, maybe there were some clashes before without actually sinking a ship.

Indeed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Greer_(DD-145)#The_Greer_Incident.2C_Sept._1941

Here is the shoot-on-sight speech: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-29.html
Post 04 Jan 2009, 14:05
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
I stand corrected! (And you didn't have to resort to calling me a coward, accuse me of being a racist, or blame my postings for war in Gaza, Afghanistan, and Iraq ... hint, hint MichaelH). Very Happy
Post 04 Jan 2009, 14:13
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
r22 wrote:
Comparisons to "Hitler" and "Stalin" start popping up like sunflowers to help amp up the rhetoric scale.
If people would stop blaming religious people for wars maybe comparisons "like that" won't come up anymore.

MichaelH wrote:
War is never necessary, nor is it justifiable .... ever!!!!
Funny wasn't you who said that we should purge and kill all religious people because they "look down on us" and are arrogants and such?

MichaelH wrote:
Agreed, hence the terrorists that are the American people and their munitions dump they call Israel, are totally evil.
I partly agree on the US being terrorists. However I also acknowledge some form of terrorism in Gaza. Heck, for me, both are terrorists. If both are terrorists, then none are, since anyway, anyone is a terrorist. Depending on what convention or what people agree on being called 'terror' Razz

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Post 04 Jan 2009, 19:37
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Borsuc wrote:

Funny wasn't you who said that we should purge and kill all religious people because they "look down on us" and are arrogants and such?


No that wasn't me who said that. No one should be killed. Everyone should be treated with respect. To show everyone respect you must take your religious beliefs and practice them in your homes and worship places. Once you step outside, if you don't leave your beliefs at the door, you're trampling over a basic human right of those who wish to be free FROM your religion.

I wish all people of all faiths and non faiths a happy existence on this earth and hope when they die they reach what they see as their heaven.


In the mean time we must gather together (all faiths/non faiths) and stand up against the people who wish to inflict pain and destruction on others ..... and right now I see a disgusting hate monger spewing US propaganda all over this forum and if anyone speaks out against him, vid the dictator admin will step in and protect him Sad


Borsuc wrote:

I partly agree on the US being terrorists


Only partly ....how is that possible, either a terrorist event occurs or it doesn't, there is no partly! ...... now read that line again with a yoda (star wars) accent Smile
Post 04 Jan 2009, 20:41
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
MichaelH wrote:
and right now I see a disgusting hate monger spewing US propaganda all over this forum and if anyone speaks out against him, vid the dictator admin will step in and protect him

LOFL Laughing Laughing . No one is stopping you from posting what you wish. Why don't you start by answering my questions?

I wrote:
MichaelH - I'm still waiting for you to tell me what is incorrect, offensive, and "staggering" in my previoius post.

I wrote:

Well, elect a terrorist organization as your government, start launching rockets at your neighbor, and this is what happens..... don't dish it if you can't take it.


Name just one innacuracy in that post. (Facts are stubborned and inconvient things, aren't they MichaelH?)

I'm also waiting for you to produce one post from me where I advocated the bombing of innocent people ... Come on now, "stand up to me"....
Oh, and I almost forgot.... can you please enlighten us and "connect those dots" between how I post and whats happening in Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere? I'd love to hear that explaination. If world peace can be obtained by my changing the way I post, I'm all ears.


They're simple questions, MichaelH. Why don't you answer my questions??

You really are inconsistent, aren't you?
MichaelH wrote:
No one should be killed. Everyone should be treated with respect.

MichaelH wrote:
A rope around his neck would surely be a great sight too see.

Consistency isn't one of your strong suites, is it? Laughing Laughing

Seriously, I'm curious why you say I'm spewing US propaganda. I provided a list of muslim terrorist attacks between 1968 and 2004. That list was factual. I stated a fact that the Palestinian people elected a terrorist organization as their government. I stated a fact that Hamas, the government of Gaza, have launched multiple rockets at their neighbor. So, seriously, MichaelH, how is that US propaganda?
By your logic, I spew US propaganda, which is factual, so US propganda is factual. (Even I don't beleive that! Laughing ).
Post 04 Jan 2009, 21:40
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
Still feeling good about things vid?
Post 04 Jan 2009, 22:51
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vid
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vid
MichaelH: Not sure which things you mean, but I do feel good about most things here, except for your abundance of personal attacks where facts and arguments should be.
Post 04 Jan 2009, 23:19
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
vid wrote:

except for your abundance of personal attacks


Strange comment, I'm the one posting no more attacks, your "friend" is the one who wants to attack, with bombs no less.


I was just wondering whether you wanted to add to the "facts" or whether you're happy with the "facts" as posted by your "friend" Confused
Post 05 Jan 2009, 02:08
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
For those who haven't experienced terror in person I guess media is the next best thing.
WARNING: extremely graphic.

The source of the video is not the current conflict:
Quote:
The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas.
Post 05 Jan 2009, 07:14
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Geez bitRAKE, posting things that violate the already stated "facts" as stated by vids "friend" risks the wroth of our esteemed admin, deletion and the direct involvement of Tomasz himself ..... OH well, you brought it upon yourself, don't say I didn't warn you Wink

Quote:

uncensored footage from Palestine has been completely blacked out in the US.


Yep, that's how hate mongers are created ..... aren't we lucky the fasm forum has our own hate monger ..... a personal friend of our admin did you know


Thanks bitRAKE, very much appreciated! ..... I wonder now you've started, if any others will help out ..... the list of atrocities dished out by the American backed Israelis are so many, surely others can do there part ..... hint hint to anyone reading this!!!!!!
Post 05 Jan 2009, 08:00
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