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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
My experience with trying Linux as an experienced Windows user (about 3-4 years ago I think).

I downloaded a live-CD version of a distro (I forget the name, sorry)

I burned it and booted it. It came to a text screen (after about 60 seconds of nonsense looking messages) and helpfully said "type 'Start X' for GUI" or something to that effect, anyhow I think you get the idea.

So I type 'Start X'. BUT, what I typed was not what was displayed in the screen (I forget exactly). Problem 1: The keyboard driver didn't know my laptop and chose an inappropriate layout.

Okay, so after much frustration with trial and error I eventually managed to get the needed 'Start X' and the GUI showed. BUT the mouse was frozen, no movement at all. Problem 2: The mouse driver (or maybe the USB driver) didn't recognise my laptop hardware.

Okay, so I know how the navigate a GUI with the keyboard, so I continue on. I started up the browser and got errors. No Internet access. Problem 3: The network driver doesn't recognise my laptop hardware.

So now I am stuck, without the network connection I can't search for and download drivers (assuming they are available of course). I was very thankful that I used a live-CD and that I didn't make the error of overwriting my HDD.

So to review.

Problem 1 (keyboard layout wrong) - I can cope but frustrating, how would a newbie feel?

Problem 2 (mouse dead) - I can cope but frustrating, how would a newbie feel? Would a newbie even get this far?

Problem 3 (no network) - I can't cope, death has occurred.

Who was I to turn to for help? The Internet? Forget it, all I find is "man blahblah". Call the developer? Forget it, s/he is doing it free so no phone support. So, I give up, I don't have time to sort it all out, I need the system working to do my work.

Now that was some few years ago and naturally things have improved since then. But it is not just me that has tried this experiment and been bitten but the nasty Linux incompatibility problem, newbies will run screaming and I don't blame them.

If Linux is to succeed this issue needs to be addressed. The manufacturers need to get on board and make drivers to support Linux. Of course, this is not the only problem I see, see my post above about the problem of too much choice. People need guidance with that.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 21:45
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
my actual concern with OS is, does the OS knows how to utilize my computer hardwares?

eg. in the windows world, manufactures with their hardware secrets then make driver that utilize their hardware fully.

eg. in other world, the hackers/programmers/etc person did the dirty job to dump and read how to control the hardware.

so, to any other world users, please convince me by providing benchmark that on the same pc hardware.
one with windows driver, another one with their who know where the drivers came from.

benchmark the performance on both, same parameters.

if other world did perform better than windows, i will switch no matter wat.

benchmark possibly on. (they can tweak the OS to perform fullest)

disk I/O.
timing guest OS with same software version, eg. using virtualbox.
graphic acceleration marks. speed of calculating the mandelbrot and so on graphic calculation software.
downloading 1GB file from a local network pc.
uploading 1GB file to a local network pc.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 21:57
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
Addendum: Yes, I know I chose the wrong distro, but I didn't know what to choose, I was spoiled for choice. What is the ratio of good/bad distros out there? Was I just unlucky, or are there a lot of bad distros and many people will get this problem?
Post 02 Jan 2009, 21:58
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
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LocoDelAssembly
Take a look at www.distrowatch.com . It is not only Linux distros listed there, but also FreeBSD and OpenSolaris among others (but only Linux is on the top 10).
Post 02 Jan 2009, 22:12
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
distrowatch.com says: 1000+ versions Linux & BSD Shocked !
Post 02 Jan 2009, 22:39
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


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LocoDelAssembly
I was expecting you would pick only those that are top 5 or so Smile
Post 02 Jan 2009, 23:01
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
Like I said earlier, if you want the easiest way to get started and test drive this, go to wubi-installer.org. You don't have to burn anything. Just use the installer and a few minutes later you can reboot, select Ubuntu, and you're up and running. Won't hurt your Windows stuff. Don't like it, uninstall from Windows uninstaller and you'll never know it was in there. Otherwise you're asking us questions we have no way of answering easily on this forum.

For those interested in FreeBSD, you can try PC-BSD, which you might say is the Ubuntu equivalent but on a BSD platform.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 23:52
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
revolution,
You are comparing your experiences with some version of Linux 3-4 years ago. If you don't need a gui, and are experienced, that install might be just what you would want. Nowadays, if you need a gui to get around, new users should use Ubuntu or Fedora.

Not that you can't get any of Ubuntu/Fedora features on any other distro but those two come packaged with them and don't need to be added.

With FreeBSD, I install with no added ports or packages. Get just a plain command line. Then I install what I want. Add X. Add a window manager. Customize if I wish. Start it up and you wouldn't know if I was on Windows or FreeBSD (or Linux). Ubuntu/Fedora do that work ahead of time for you.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 23:58
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
revolution:


http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-8.10-desktop

Quote:

3G Support
For constant connectivity public WiFi has limitations. Improvements to the network manager in Ubuntu 8.10 makes it simple to detect and connect to 3G networks and manage connectivity. This connectivity is delivered through an inbuilt 3G modem, through 'dongle' support, through a mobile phone or through Bluetooth. It is a complex environment that Ubuntu 8.10 simplifies through a single interface and the auto-detection of many of the most popular devices.


What .... a single interface and the auto-detection of many of the most popular devices.

Quote:

Write Ubuntu to and Install from a USB Drive
Ubuntu has been made available to users as an image for CDs and DVDs to date. But CDs and DVDs are slower, less portable and less convenient than USB sticks. Now, a simple application in Ubuntu will allow users to write Ubuntu to a USB drive, even a modified version of Ubuntu with their data on it, so it can be carried everywhere to plug in and use on any machine.



You write your OS to a flash stick and put it in you pocket, plug it into any computer any where and it auto detect 3G WiFi..... are you so sure windows isn't dead!

See the get support link!

The above link dispels all your negative posts of the last few days.

If you have broadband you could have virtualbox and ubuntu 8.10 downloaded by tonight. Set up a default machine in virtualBox, create a hard disk and point the cd to the ubuntu ISO you downloaded. Have a look at the live ubuntu, install it, install Guest additions, just click on install guest additions in virtual box, extract the archive to some folder and open a terminal cd to the folder you extracted guest additions files to, type "sudo ./install.sh", and if your host OS is connected to the net, you should be able to open firefox and come to the fasm forum all before you go to bed tonight ...... so stop coming up with excuses and get motivated!
Post 03 Jan 2009, 01:35
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17270
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revolution
I appreciate that you are all trying to give me good advice, but that is not my goal. Try to look at my posts as if you are an average computer user. Can you see my experience above through the eyes of a non-tech-savvy person? This sort of experience is very damning to the image of the OS. And once the user tells all their friends at their next get together they will also be reluctant to "give it a go".

Compare that to a typical Windows system. The user buys it and it is already installed ready to go. The first hurdle is solved, the user doesn't even know the pain of installation. Some time later when the HDD crashes the user is very happy that they can call on the help of any number of friends to assist with the reinstall of the OS from that little CD they got when they bought the system. And it also works first time (they just sit back and watch it install). Sure they lose all their data because they never backed up but they don't blame the OS for that, they know it was the HDD.

So let's summarise here:

The user got Windows "for free" when they bought the system and they just used it. They became familiar with it and were happy.

When something fucked up, they were able to easily find someone else that knows about Windows and got up and running again quite easily.

Right now, Lunix/Unix cannot come close to that experience for the average person. They will never switch, they have no reason to switch. These "alternative" OSes need a killer app to force people to want it badly. They need to coddle user as much as possible if they want to get into the mainstream. Making it free or open source means nothing to the average computer buyer. They already get Windows "for free" (they are not aware it is bundled in the purchase price) and the open source thing might as well be advanced quantum mechanics as far they could care.
Post 03 Jan 2009, 02:11
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Well from my own experience, I've had vista for a while now, I'm no mug when it comes to windows but I have numerous problems that I haven't managed to get on top of and to be quite frank, I can't be brothered trying to find out what's the fixes for these problems are simply because I installed ubuntu on virtualBox and my hard drive and I've had nothing but pleasure using it.

Will Vista ever support sql server 2000 .... something I paid thousands of dollars for .... I doubt it ..... wankers!!!!!!!

Windows XP service pack 3, has the manifest problem where xp themes are broken been fixed????? .... will it ever be fixed? M$ has known about it forever, so I doubt it.


You say things like "they just sit back and watch it install", maybe but vista has now got so many security restrictions (why, because of endless buffer overflows .... yes linux is not ammuned) that many programs either won't run or you need to come up with work arounds to make them run.

Mean time I sat back, watched ubuntu install, found the synaptic Package Manager and still get a kick out of finding neat programs that you simply check a checkbox and they are all downloaded and installed for you without any further input by me .... anyway -



The ubuntu theme is horrible so with a quick google search

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=linux+themes&meta=

check these themes out -

http://www.sizzledcore.com/2008/08/09/ubuntu-themes-awesome-themes-for-linux/

http://www.linuxhaxor.net/2008/10/10/10-finger-licking-linux-desktopthemes/


Vista aero ..... yawn ..... are you really sure windows isn't dead!
Post 03 Jan 2009, 02:35
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17270
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
MichaelH: Post more about you Vista problems.

I am dead keen to avoid Vista completely because of the DRM, but I know that somehow I will end up with it (or it's successor). Next time I upgrade my PC I expect to find it very hard to avoid getting it "for free" Sad

I am also in the app-trap mentioned by thimis above. Many of the commercial apps we use in the office are not available for anything except Windows. And there are no alternatives available for Linux we can switch to.
Post 03 Jan 2009, 02:49
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:
Can you see my experience above through the eyes of a non-tech-savvy person?
But your experience is from 4 years ago but once they meet better friends Smile they'll be told it isn't that way anymore.

[quote] the user is very happy that they can call on the help of any number of friends to assist with the reinstall of the OS from that little CD they got when they bought the system.[./quote]If you mean on forums then the situation is no different with Linux.
Quote:
And it also works first time (they just sit back and watch it install).
Just like Linux.
Quote:
So let's summarise here:

The user got Windows "for free" when they bought the system and they just used it. They became familiar with it and were happy.

When something fucked up, they were able to easily find someone else that knows about Windows and got up and running again quite easily.

Right now, Lunix/Unix cannot come close to that experience for the average person.
Not true but you can get deeper into fixing things which will lead to editing conf files. That may scare the average guy but it's more than they would get with Windows.
Quote:
They will never switch, they have no reason to switch. These "alternative" OSes need a killer app to force people to want it badly.
This is true.

The thing people forget about, with open source, is that it is not a product. Windows is a product. It has marketing and big dollars behind it. Open source stuff are tools used by people who know how to use them. A carpenter won't walk down the street and pitch his latest great hammer to everyone he meets but his brother, who makes a commission off each one he sells will; even if it's inferior and more expensive to everything else.

But, then, how did Firefox capture over 20% of the market in browsers in less than four years? This, I believe, was a grassroots movement. I was first turned onto it by my son who was steered to it by his gaming buddies. Linux now has a millionaire backer with Ubuntu along with Google, IBM, etc. but I don't see the same movement.

I haven't given it any thought myself. How would you start one? What would grab someone's attention? I'm not sure a killer app is necessary for such a movement but it wouldn't hurt.
Post 03 Jan 2009, 02:55
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:

I am also in the app-trap mentioned by thimis above. Many of the commercial apps we use in the office are not available for anything except Windows. And there are no alternatives available for Linux we can switch to.
Such as?
Post 03 Jan 2009, 02:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17270
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Such as?
Embarassed Well, even without having to mention specific programs, also the apps that we create ourselves are for Windows only. So even my company puts our customers into the app-trap. Embarassed

It is a vicious circle, we have apps only suitable for Windows, so we use Windows. Then we create apps only suitable for Windows and now our customers have to use Windows. Round and round we go. We don't create Linux/Unix apps because our customers don't ask for it (and we don't know how to anyway), they already have Windows there waiting to run our programs. Round and round we go. How to break that?
Post 03 Jan 2009, 03:12
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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dosin
When I 1st got Vista 64..

It was a little different.. Just with installing applications... after a few days I had all the software I use on it.. That include Lightwave, Visual C++ 6.0, Fasm,Paintshop pro,Dreamweaver 8, all of my favorite games - Call of Duty ect.. and now everything is good... Only thing not supported is the 16 bit apps.. I can live with out them or find 32/64 app versions if avail!
if not I have a WinXp sys if I need them or use an emulator... As far as finding driver - no prob ..

Finding everthing on Vista was not that hard...

On my linux I still do not have my favorite games, have to use there apps or make my own - some things are not very user freindly.. Plus if you like open office and a lot of linux apps they are avail for Vista and Xp..

I have Gimp 2 installed on Vista... and I can download open office ect...

But this is my experience with both OS... I use Vista more than XP, and way more than Linux... Why - because it makes sence! Very Happy

Just a sugestion to anyone wanting to learn linux.. Download Qemu or Other emulator .. The Qemu I have has an example image of a linux kernel.. its just a command line interface.. But would give you a place to start with out having to install a bunch of software!
Post 03 Jan 2009, 03:29
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
dosin wrote:
When I 1st got Vista 64..

It was a little different.. Just with installing applications... after a few days I had all the software I use on it.. That include Lightwave, Visual C++ 6.0, Fasm,Paintshop pro,Dreamweaver 8, all of my favorite games - Call of Duty ect.. and now everything is good... Only thing not supported is the 16 bit apps.. I can live with out them or find 32/64 app versions if avail!
if not I have a WinXp sys if I need them or use an emulator... As far as finding driver - no prob ..

Finding everthing on Vista was not that hard...

On my linux I still do not have my favorite games, have to use there apps or make my own - some things are not very user freindly.. Plus if you like open office and a lot of linux apps they are avail for Vista and Xp..

I have Gimp 2 installed on Vista... and I can download open office ect...

But this is my experience with both OS... I use Vista more than XP, and way more than Linux... Why - because it makes sence! Very Happy

The thing we can't seem to ever get around is games. Seems all Windows users ever use their computer for is playing games.

It's nice to see they ported Lighwave over to Windows from Unix a few years ago. I see they even ported over Maya, too. I used both for years before that when I worked at SGI and Pixar. None of the good stuff ran on Windows but it didn't matter since all the high end graphics shops are Unix.

I didn't understand your point but my point is I think you are trying to say you don't use Linux because it won't run Photoshop and Visual C ignoring the fact that 'nix has Gimp and Emacs and we don't expect Windows to act like Linux (though those programs have been ported over to Windows, too) so you shouldn't be trying to make Linux act like Windows.
Post 03 Jan 2009, 03:39
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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dosin
No the point was - some people are still afraid of Vista.. and that it was easy to pick up.. and made sence for me to use...

and then added my experience with Linux...

As far as Visual C++ 6- Vista says its not supported.. but it will install and run!

But for me using the programs I know - and just learn vista

or learn linux and all the apps over again!
Post 03 Jan 2009, 03:47
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
drhowarddrfine wrote:
... you shouldn't be trying to make Linux act like Windows.
This is part of my point above. You can't go telling the average user that "you shouldn't be trying to make Linux act like Windows". They will run away. You have to coddle them to make them comfortable. People are reticent to change, and the harder you make it for them that more they resist. If you want people to switch "to the good side" then don't alienate them with a whole new paradigm of "it's not Windows, get over it".
Post 03 Jan 2009, 03:47
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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dosin
Quote:
You have to coddle them to make them comfortable


Well its like driving on the wrong side of the road.. It would take time to get use to it! Very Happy

Linux has good and bad just like everthing else.. It just come down to whats pratical for that one individual!

What programs they have to run!
What games they like!
and the list goes on..

I am not trying to get anyone to switch to Windows or linux... or any other program mentioned...

Just my own experience with both systems!
Post 03 Jan 2009, 04:01
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