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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
One major problem though is solving the fractionalisation, i.e. which version of Linux to promote?
Yes. If you promote any one distro then you alienate all the others. What's strange is, when you say Linux, we really mean GNU/Linux (as Richard Stallman will scream at you). Linux is only the kernel and much of everything else comes from GNU. So it's the inbetween stuff that needs to be solved...maybe. I say maybe because I haven't given it any thought.

Mark Shuttleworth is doing a good job with Ubuntu. I've never watched any videos of him, so I don't know his personality, but maybe he could work on getting a spokesman. Or spokeswoman! That could be so hot.


Last edited by drhowarddrfine on 22 Jan 2009, 14:28; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jan 2009, 18:08
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
It's so lame that the egotist Stallman keeps screaming about "GNUGNUGNUGNUGNU/Linux" - sure thing, a lot of the important base tools are from GNU, but consider just how much other (non-gnu!) software every linux distribution consists of... GPL license != GNU software. It's unfair that he wants so much attention to GNU, as it kinda diminishes the effort that a lot of other programmers have put into their projects.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 00:12
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Mark Shuttleworth is doing a good job with Ubuntu. I've never watched any videos of him, so I don't know his personality, but maybe he could work on getting a spokesman. Or spokeswoman! That could be so hot.
Sure, that might be good, but who's gonna pay for it? Presumably it would still be a free download. So if no cash then no hot babe flashing her wears (not wares) to promote it.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 10:03
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Actually I asked this question on another topic but it went unanswered.

What makes something an OS?

Not as easy to answer as it might seem.

Think about it. Ask ten people for their opinion about what is an OS and you will get eleven different opinions.

Is an OS just the kernel? Is it a kernel with some development tools? Is it a kernel with user apps? Does it need to have a browser? Media player? Games? Does it have to support a file system? Network? Which things are extras/add-ons and which are required to make something an OS? What if I remove one tool and replace with a different tool, have I made a new OS? What if I remove one tool and don't replace with anything, have I made a new OS? What if I just add a new tool, have I made a new OS?

Confused
Post 22 Jan 2009, 10:12
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f0dder



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f0dder
revolution: what makes a great OS depends on what you're going to use it for, imho. But it's always more than just the kernel. For a desktop OS, I expect it fills my basic needs out of the box - graphics and sound should work out of the box (or at least require no more than installing hardware drivers), I want a webbrowser (or a repository system so I can grab one), file browser/manager, etc...
Post 22 Jan 2009, 10:24
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
It's so lame that the egotist Stallman keeps screaming about "GNUGNUGNUGNUGNU/Linux" - sure thing, a lot of the important base tools are from GNU
GNU got Linux off the ground and forms more of the core software while all the other apps revolved around that.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 14:30
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:
who's gonna pay for it? Presumably it would still be a free download.
Shuttleworth. Ubuntu makes money selling services like support.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 14:32
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
revolution: what makes a great OS depends on what you're going to use it for, imho. But it's always more than just the kernel. For a desktop OS, I expect it fills my basic needs out of the box - graphics and sound should work out of the box (or at least require no more than installing hardware drivers), I want a webbrowser (or a repository system so I can grab one), file browser/manager, etc...
You can't use that as a definition because you eliminate all operating systems from the definition but Windows. Linux has none of those tools built in but it's still an operating system. Real time embedded operating systems have none of those.

Yes, I'm nitpicking the definition and I know we're generally talking about desktop/notebook operating systems but there.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 14:37
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f0dder



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f0dder
drhowarddrfine: please re-read my post. Or let me try cutting it out in cardboard:

1) an "OS" is more than just the kernel. This generally goes for RTOS as well, you get either a framework or at least a few libraries.

2) notice that I wrote "for a desktop OS" for the rest of the quote. And every linux distro I've seen (that are desktop rather than appliance oriented) have included those things.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 14:43
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
No matter how "good" an OS is, people will still stay away from it if it can't run most of the apps they want/need.

That's what Windows so popular. It may not be a "great" OS but sure as hell popular because of the huge selection of apps (everyone has different tastes). If someone wants their Photoshop, that's what they want -- sure Gimp is good too, but seriously, if someone said to YOU that you should use Windows & Photoshop, would you? Why do you expect him to learn a different program?

At best, he will probably forget about learning Linux if he will still have his favorite apps ready to work.

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Post 22 Jan 2009, 15:40
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
And every linux distro I've seen (that are desktop rather than appliance oriented) have included those things.
Let me color this in crayon for you. I wwsn't talking about desktop only distros and distros are NOT operating systems unto themselves. I'm not surprised you don't know that.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 15:48
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f0dder



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f0dder
drhowarddrfine wrote:
f0dder wrote:
And every linux distro I've seen (that are desktop rather than appliance oriented) have included those things.
Let me color this in crayon for you. I wwsn't talking about desktop only distros and distros are NOT operating systems unto themselves. I'm not surprised you don't know that.
Er, say what?

Revolution asked what makes up an OS - I answered that what makes a (great) OS depends on what your needs are, but that an OS is more than just a kernel. Do you disagree with that?

Then I moved on to what *I* expect from a desktop OS - which is a matter of taste, so hardly something that you can argue about (your needs might be different, good for you).

But wtf do you mean with "distros are NOT operating systems unto themselves"? Saying that a linux distro isn't an OS is about as silly as claiming that kernel32.dll, user32.dll (etc) are part of the NT kernel.

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Post 22 Jan 2009, 16:02
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
Let's leave it at this. I'm talking about the very basic fundamental of what an OS is and you are talking about the overall system. That's why I said I was nitpicking the definition.
Post 22 Jan 2009, 17:22
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
As a programmer I think the idea of having the source code to the OS as a great advantage. I can change things to suit myself. But changing it to suit me creates a huge amount of incompatibility, especially when everyone is changing their own source code in different ways.

Would Linux be where it is if the source code were closed? Who would pay the people working on it if it were closed source? How would it compare to FreeBSD? If Linux were instead a pay-for OS what incentive would there be to use it? Can it compare to Windows if they were priced the same? What if it were only half the price, would it be worth the cost? What if it were twice the price (thinking about TCO here), would it be worth it?
Post 23 Jan 2009, 03:04
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Coddy41



Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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Coddy41
if dexos gets a browser, and suports my wifi,sound, gets a notepad, ill laugh Laughing at the the rest Smile unless win 7 is realy good ill only have ubuntu and dexos.
Post 23 Jan 2009, 10:33
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drhowarddrfine



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drhowarddrfine
Having to pay for 'nix would create a paradigm shift that would change everything.
Post 23 Jan 2009, 14:17
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
A recent thread has reminded me of this thread.

I have been travelling a lot lately and have had some time to ponder what it could be that is stopping a wider audience from accepting non-Windows OSes. Below is perhaps one of the reasons (among the many reasons).

Tomasz Grysztar posted a thread introducing Ted Talks, and I found one of the talks discussing the paradox of choice.

I think that Linux definitely suffers from this problem, there is just too much choice and people don't know what to do, or what is best, so they just ignore it and take the easier path of limited choice from MS (listen to the talk to understand what I mean here).

Even though it is free (no money to pay), that is not enough of a hook to bring in the users, there has to be something more. People need to see something that has been honed down to a few common options, where all the tricky choices have already been made for them. There are already some attempts at doing this now, but because of all the other Joe Bloggs Linux's out there people get confused and stressed at having so many options.

How to solve this problem?
Post 23 Aug 2009, 13:40
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
drhowarddrfine wrote:
revolution wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
One major problem though is solving the fractionalisation, i.e. which version of Linux to promote?
Yes. If you promote any one distro then you alienate all the others.
Once more software runs on the Linux kernel than on the NT kernel, people will migrate en masse to *nix distributions (helping them all). Only ones with weird incompatible kernels will be alienated.
Post 23 Aug 2009, 13:58
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
Quote:

I think that Linux definitely suffers from this problem, there is just too much choice

This may be going away with Ubuntu. Whenever anyone say "I want to use Linux" the answer almost always is "Get Ubuntu".

The "choice problem" is very real. I notice it in my restaurants all the time.

Quote:

Once more software runs on the Linux kernel than on the NT kernel, people will migrate en masse to *nix distributions (helping them all).

More software already runs on *nix than Windows now. It's just that not much Windows software runs on *nix. However, most people do about 3 things: email, web surf, write letters, and play games. Ignoring games for a moment, most of the same software to do all those things is already available on *nix. So what's different? You can use the same browser, the same email program and the same word processor. No, not Microsoft products but the others are just as good for average usage and some are better.

I understand that games are better on Windows but now you're talking about a game box vs everything else. Many people treat their computer as a game box and, if it weren't for games, they probably wouldn't even have one.
Quote:
Only ones with weird incompatible kernels will be alienated.
All Linux distros use the same kernel.
Post 23 Aug 2009, 19:21
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cod3b453



Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 619
cod3b453
Personally, I only like openSuSE on the unix side of things, having tried most big name distros in both the linux and BSD world only to be left disappointed.

On the windows side, I prefer XP SP2, I think microsoft pretty much got it right here, finally, then things went down hill again.


I like the power of the unix terminal, it certainly has had its uses for me, however, I can't take it seriously as a target platform for development because there's no real API, even Java is 50/50.

Windows is a lot nicer to develop on, I also prefer the windows versions of various editors over the linux equivalent.
Post 24 Aug 2009, 00:05
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