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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Here is your chance to evangelise about your favourite OS. Here is your chance to bash your most hated OS.

Highlight all the features you like, bash all the features you hate. Discuss why OS A is better than OS B for certain things. Complain about annoyances that really make you want to smack the programmer. Be brutal about the "other" OSes that you don't use. And just in general poke fun at the "other people's" OS.

However, this doesn't mean you can just write whatever you please. Keep it impersonal. No personal attacks. You are not allowed to say someone else is an idiot (or whatever other insult), only attack the OSes, not the poster. I will ask a mod to delete your entire message if it contains a personal attack, sorry but this always seems to be a sensitive subject, so strict rules are necessary to keep it civil.

We are mostly programmers here so I imagine we would have a rather large bias in how we use our machines, but we can also try to think of how the average non-programmer might perceive the available OSes. Try to think outside your own experience and put your feet in some else's shoes for a while and see what you think.

So post away, which is the "better" OS? How do you judge "better"? What are the most important criteria to you?

I'll kick it off:

Windows is cheaper for me to run at the office because everyone is familiar with it and I need less support staff to maintain the OS. Productivity is higher because all the staff are comfortable with it. It would create a lot of animosity among the staff if we changed to anything else, office happiness would be affected negatively. The last thing I need is unhappy staff.

Linux is cheaper for me to run at home IF I have enough spare time to learn about all the various options and differences that are available and IF I can afford to be without a working system for a few days while I am trying a new "flavour" or trying to find a driver for my hardware.

But money is not everything, I don't mind paying more for an OS IF I get some benefit in return, like for instance, a wider selection of gaming software, or less downtime due to viruses or buggy drivers.

I've never tried OSX or Leopard, so I can't comment on that front, but I am aware that the Apple hardware is more expensive initially. But could I save money in the long term if I switched to Apple?


Last edited by revolution on 02 Jan 2009, 13:51; edited 2 times in total
Post 02 Jan 2009, 13:48
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 701
guignol
You don't need Apple hardware to run MacOS X
Post 02 Jan 2009, 13:50
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
There are articles out saying Apple is more expensive initially but even price due to everything always working.

I use FreeBSD because it works with all the technologies and languages available. It is Unix so it follows the Unix philosophy that you can pipe the output of any tool to the input of any other tool and chain them all together to create a custom package if you wish. And modifying behavior of programs and the OS is simple with simple text based config files.

It runs on almost any hardware so I have not had to buy hardware in 8 years, so I inherit everyone elses computers when they "upgrade" to the next Windows version. For example, the computer I use daily for surfing is from 2001. For Christmas I was given two 3-year old computers which are better than any of the others I own.

I never buy software. I never have to buy anything to write code or implement a feature. Those who are office people generally run OpenOffice, GoogleDocs, Firefox and Thunderbird. They work and look the same as on Windows. There are Windows equivalents of opensource software but Wine runs any Windows programs we would need (we don't).

Upgrading is rarely necessary. I do it but some systems are never upgraded. Though FreeBSD is on v7.1 now I have two that are still running 5.2.

They never get viruses and they never crash. The only time they go down is when the power goes out or I take them down. One server I have is still running 3-years after installation.

FreeBSD (and Linux for that matter) makes sense, and it's easy, once you quit trying to think it should act like Windows. The only issues are usually by hardware vendors, those who don't write drivers for their boards for FreeBSD. Typically, nvidia and broadcom. Adobe gives poor Flash support for browsers.

Interestingly enough, FreeBSD runs most Linux applications faster than Linux does.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 14:38
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
I'd need to learn lot of stuff to use Linux effectively. I already have learnt Windows stuff. So far, I can do everything I need in Windows. Decision is clear.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 15:41
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DJ Mauretto



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 464
Location: Rome,Italy
DJ Mauretto
My choice is always Windows ,for compatibility and easy use reason,
every manufacturer choice Windows as first choice to run software,
of course you have the benefict and availability of all driver, alternative i tried
only linux UBUNTU , good GUI easy to use ( User Click Level ,not Terminal)
but too much problems with Hardware.

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Nil Volentibus Arduum Razz
Post 02 Jan 2009, 15:57
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
What I find wrong with Linux:
  • Too much choice
  • No central point of control
  • Too little market penetration
  • Newbies are scared to touch it (Why?)
  • Bad reputation for availability of drivers
  • Unfriendly help when something goes wrong
  • Very steep learning curve


What I find wrong with Windows:
  • Registry is an enigma
  • Too many programs want to protect themselves from user hacking/copying
  • Too popular a target for viruses
  • Legacy support hampers a lot of things
  • Forced to upgrade every few years
  • DRM
Post 02 Jan 2009, 16:16
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2915
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
The TOS/GEM Desktop was shit. The basic return type changed from version to version on many system functions. Which caused some compilers to produce incorrect code for later versions of the OS. I spent hours learning VDI while Bill Gates copied it for GDI.

From a programming perspective, if I could find the same connection to historical underpinnings in Linux the shift would be much easier. But the whole thing seems like a big mess.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 16:36
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Quote:

What I find wrong with Linux:

* Too much choice
meh. Depending on what you mean, you find out what's the best to use.
Quote:
* No central point of control
This is one reason why I prefer FreeBSD.
Quote:
* Too little market penetration
On the desktop, yes. On the web, no. Runs most of the 'net.
Quote:
* Newbies are scared to touch it (Why?)
This shouldn't affect you. They're afraid of it because it doesn't look like Windows and they think you only use the command line. That is actually an advantage but it doesn't have to be true.
Quote:
* Bad reputation for availability of drivers
Unless it isn't a problem for you and it probably isn't.
Quote:
* Unfriendly help when something goes wrong
Never an issue. Particularly with Ubuntu.
Quote:
* Very steep learning curve
False. No different than Windows
Post 02 Jan 2009, 16:42
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
drhowarddrfine: Try to think about it from a newbies point of view (not for someone like me specifically). Unfriendly help is a killer to any system. Incompatibility is another big killer. But the most damning is a bad reputation. How to repair a bad reputation? It is not easy to do.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 16:53
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Giving people a lot of choice is a huge issue for people (in general). I have had people ask me "Which Windows should I buy, there is so much choice?"! They are scared of choosing the "wrong" one. Wasted time and effort on the "wrong" choice is a big fear. So choosing the "right" one first time is important. Linux amplifies this fear enormously. This is an issue that must be fixed before people are willing to give it the proper consideration it deserves.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 16:58
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
I agree with revolution (even though, like I said, I would actually want to know Linux, but don't have time these days Sad).

The thing about the learning curve is not about Windows, it's about DOS and the "system" that is inherited in Windows from that. Linux is just different since it's *nix-based somewhat... so people have that fear of it.

I know some noobies who are afraid to test it, because they think it might wipe out their hard disks, or not read properly and corrupt something (including the boot sector). They don't know how to use virtual machines and it's unlikely they will want anyway, so how can I help them?

What does the "central point of control" mean?


Is the bad reputation for drivers just a bad reputation? Does it actually work as well as Windows in that matter (and with as many devices)? What about DirectX 9 (with Wine ofc)?

How does Linux handle multi-threading?


Oh and the Windows registry is the stupidest thing ever to be conceived.
Is it something similar under Linux? Or just the "system" folder and that's that? Or am I completely speaking noobish things because it's so different?

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Post 02 Jan 2009, 17:13
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asmcoder



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 784
asmcoder
[content deleted]


Last edited by asmcoder on 14 Aug 2009, 14:54; edited 1 time in total
Post 02 Jan 2009, 18:23
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 337
dosin
I dont think its about being scared... Its about going with what works!

Quote:
Linux - Runs most of the 'net.


This says it all! Very Happy

If it did not have all the flaws... people would use it more... its not the command line... most people dont use a command line in windows...

The average user uses the GIU... Click and go! Very Happy
Thats how I got here.. no commands to type in! Laughing


Last edited by dosin on 02 Jan 2009, 19:52; edited 2 times in total
Post 02 Jan 2009, 18:49
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
revolution wrote:
drhowarddrfine: Try to think about it from a newbies point of view (not for someone like me specifically). Unfriendly help is a killer to any system. Incompatibility is another big killer. But the most damning is a bad reputation. How to repair a bad reputation? It is not easy to do.
I agree with you but this has changed quite a bit in the Ubuntu area, don't you think? That's one good thing about that becoming a popular distro in that a lot of Windows converts give that a try first and they, generally, don't have experience with it.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 19:27
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Borsuc wrote:

What does the "central point of control" mean?
That anyone can make their own distribution of Linux. That's why there are so many of them. FreeBSD, for example, has one version that's controlled by a elected committee. There is only one FreeBSD. (Yes, there is NetBSD and OpenBSD but that's a different story)
Quote:

Is the bad reputation for drivers just a bad reputation?
Mostly. There are issues with some distros and their developers. This is part of the Linux problem (not found in FreeBSD).
Quote:

How does Linux handle multi-threading?
Now there are whole web sites on that.
Quote:

Oh and the Windows registry is the stupidest thing ever to be conceived.
Is it something similar under Linux?
Configuration is handled with text files usually ending in '.conf'. Each program may have its own conf file. Easy to read and set with any editor. Most things, if not all, come with their own 'help file' called a 'man page' or "manual". Want to know how to use gedit? Enter 'man gedit' and it pops right up.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 19:36
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
dosin wrote:
I dont think its about being scared... Its about going with what works!

Quote:
Linux - Runs most of the 'net.


This says it all! Very Happy

If it did not have all the flaws... people would use it more... its not the command line... most people dont use a command line in windows...

The average user uses the GIU... Click and go! Very Happy
Thats how I got here.. no commands to type in! Laughing
So what makes you think I had to use the command line from my machine to get here? I turned on this box, entered by username/password, Clicked on the Firefox icon, clicked on the bookmark in Firefox, and here I am. Except for the colors, you could look at my desktop and not know I wasn't on Windows. No command line necessary.
Post 02 Jan 2009, 19:38
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 337
dosin
I did not think that??? Laughing
The biggest point was runs some of the Net!


People dont look at Windows as an OS..
They buy it in a package with there computer... To a lot of poeple its just
another devise that is needed ... They dont care how it works ... as long as it does work..

For gamers and programers:
Unless your designing an OS - Linux is kind of pointless...
Gamers want the best graphics and performace... .. but the main stream does not make versions for Linux OS!
Programming.. Why would you make programs for a small market...

I talk to people all day that do not know what operating system there using! They say its a Dell or another computer maker.... lol
They dont care about details - just that it works...

Most if asked to pull up a command line... They reply how do I do it!

If you were to change the linux name- and solve the probs with graphics and the net (plus drivers)... set up a computer at a mall... you could get people to use it (the GUI).. and like it... as long as its simple and looks good and works..
linspire tried.. but kept the linux name... Walmart carried them for a little while! and now there in the same boat as all the other linux systems.. and price does not matter,,, The computer with linspire was under 500.00...

The Linux name is tarnished!...
Post 02 Jan 2009, 19:54
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Picnic



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: behind the arc
Picnic
revolution wrote:
..office happiness would be affected negatively.

I'd like to post a comment on that.
A comercial program we are using on my work, and afaik also used by many other companys here in Greece, runs only in Windows.
And we have some people trained to use it. There is 24 hours technical support e.t.c

So, i imagine myself walking in some sunny day and say
Boys & girls today we will change our OS....

Unrealistic, it would really affect negatively our office happiness. Very Happy


Last edited by Picnic on 02 Jan 2009, 21:18; edited 1 time in total
Post 02 Jan 2009, 20:55
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Obviously this thread is a result of the burst of activity yesterday and it seems to me revolution is in fact starting to think about going down the non windows OS route. This would be great if our main poster was to get on board so I'll start a thread a bit later on how easy it is to use fasm with the cool little editor geany I've already mentioned else where. Also I'll show you how to set up nautilus scripts so you can get a jump start on using gnome's excellent file explorer so we can finally put to rest this idea that windows is easier to learn than non windows OSes. Of course you could just google nautilus scripts and start downloading all the useful ones all over the net that you think you may need

Those non windows OS uses, please start posting in threads how to do thing in the OS you use and lets see if we can turn the fasm forum into a place where windows is a dirty word Wink


drhowarddrfine, thanks for your help in promoting non windows OSes. Although I'll stick to ubuntu (opensuse for kde folks), please keep posting about freebsd.

BTW Anyone interested, I went to sun web site and filled in the request form for a free OpenSolaris disk, and from half way around the world it turned up at my door two week later ...... so why all the talk about M$ windows???????
Post 02 Jan 2009, 20:55
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
thimis wrote:

A comercial program we are using on my work, and afaik also used by many other companys here in Greece, runs only in Windows.
And we have some people trained to use it. There is 24 hours technical support e.t.c

So, i imagine myself walking in some sunny day and say
Boys & girls today we will change our OS....

Unrealistic, it would really affect negatively our office happiness. Very Happy
If that software was ported to Linux, and everyone walked in one day and sat at their terminals with that program open in front of them on Linux, how would anything be different?
Post 02 Jan 2009, 21:41
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