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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
I heard Kubuntu is closer to Windows than Ubuntu. Is that true?
Post 13 Jan 2009, 17:04
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Question: Do we really want Linux/FreeBSD/whatever to become the most popular OS? How it is supposed they will manage the ultra high Internet traffic such a thing would generate? (downloading the distro, installing packages from the repository/portage/whatever, installing updates, etc)

Paradoxically the success of Linux/FreeBSD/whatever could also be its failure (unless of course they can achieve some funding but their start point is giving to you "the product" with no cost so they start with one way of getting money less).
Post 13 Jan 2009, 17:51
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
Kubuntu uses a different windowing environment (KDE) than Ubuntu (Gnome).
Post 13 Jan 2009, 18:30
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
LocoDelAssembly wrote:
How it is supposed they will manage the ultra high Internet traffic such a thing would generate? (downloading the distro, installing packages from the repository/portage/whatever, installing updates, etc)
Windows7 downloads crashed after two hours. I think they can do better than 2 hours.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 18:31
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
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LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

Windows7 downloads crashed after two hours. I think they can do better than 2 hours.

How much better? And this crash also dropped the WindowsUpdate infrastructure too?

Although a very shameful thing the crash of Windows 7 download, I yet don't see why Linux/FreeBSD/whatever will support, say, 60% of the desktop market share. If they have plans to fix this great, but with the way it is handled right now I think it is an unmanageable volume (with the amount of money they have to pay for the required infrastructure).

Also, nearly all software installed on a Linux desktop comes from the distro's repositories, so they in fact handle more traffic volume per user than Microsoft since Microsoft only serves updates for their products only while, say, Ubuntu, serves a lot of software and the updates for all of them. They are doing quite well so far, but again, the desktop user base is not as big as Microsoft.

So this is the question, how much a Linux/FreeBSD/whatever distro infrastructure can grow without going to bankruptcy? Time for Google to ask them to start their own distro? Wink
Post 13 Jan 2009, 19:28
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Kubuntu uses a different windowing environment (KDE) than Ubuntu (Gnome).
What's a windowing environment?

(I'm starting to get what revolution says about Linux, while good in itself, it certainly doesn't attract an average joe -- I could learn that stuff, though it still confuses me now, but what about an average joe? he might never be able to!)

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Post 13 Jan 2009, 19:28
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
LocoDelAssembly wrote:
Quote:

Windows7 downloads crashed after two hours. I think they can do better than 2 hours.

I yet don't see why Linux/FreeBSD/whatever will support, say, 60% of the desktop market share. If they have plans to fix this great, but with the way it is handled right now I think it is an unmanageable volume (with the amount of money they have to pay for the required infrastructure).
Fix what? Nothing's broken. Everything works great right now. If they get that busy, they'll change.
Quote:

So this is the question, how much a Linux/FreeBSD/whatever distro infrastructure can grow without going to bankruptcy? Time for Google to ask them to start their own distro? Wink
I don't know the financial stuff involved. You can get Ubuntu as a torrent. I think the others do that, too.
Post 13 Jan 2009, 23:38
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
Borsuc wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Kubuntu uses a different windowing environment (KDE) than Ubuntu (Gnome).
What's a windowing environment?
What you are looking at when you run Windows. In 'nix, those square windows on the screen are an application you install. In Windows, it's part of the OS. In 'nix, you have your choice of any number of windows managers.
Quote:

(I'm starting to get what revolution says about Linux, while good in itself, it certainly doesn't attract an average joe -- I could learn that stuff, though it still confuses me now, but what about an average joe? he might never be able to!)
Should the average Joe not use Windows because he can't edit the registry? Does the average Joe know how to use 'cmd'? In Linux, the only difference is that these are out in the open while Windows hides them.

I still say you guys should just install wubi and give it a spin. You won't hurt yourself. I promise!
Post 13 Jan 2009, 23:42
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
drhowarddrfine wrote:
I still say you guys should just install wubi and give it a spin. You won't hurt yourself. I promise!
Ok, I can't now (i have issues with my comp) but I'll use a virtualized Linux on my next comp I plan to buy (though it may take a while), so I'll refrain to speak on Linux's behalf until then.

apart from questions like the difference and file system (it's not like DOS for example), which the more I ask now, the easier it will be later on when I actually install it Very Happy

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Post 13 Jan 2009, 23:59
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

Fix what? Nothing's broken. Everything works great right now. If they get that busy, they'll change.

Sorry, I didn't want to mean something is broken, just that the way that updates and software is delivered demands too much traffic volume to scale without investing tons of money.

Quote:

I don't know the financial stuff involved. You can get Ubuntu as a torrent. I think the others do that, too.

Yes, you can get the ISO images that way but not the updates nor the installation of new packages through managers like Synaptic (used a lot on Ubuntu).
Post 14 Jan 2009, 00:02
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Updates are usually pretty small anyway.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 04:45
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Quote:
Updates are usually pretty small anyway.

Code:
root@ubuntu:/home/ubuntu# apt-get upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  linux-generic linux-headers-generic linux-image-generic
  linux-restricted-modules-generic
The following packages will be upgraded:
  alsa-utils apparmor apparmor-utils avahi-autoipd avahi-daemon avahi-utils
  base-files bind9-host ca-certificates capplets-data command-not-found
  command-not-found-data compiz compiz-core compiz-fusion-plugins-main
  compiz-gnome compiz-plugins compiz-wrapper console-setup cups cups-bsd
  cups-client cups-common dnsutils evolution evolution-common
  evolution-data-server evolution-data-server-common evolution-plugins f-spot
  firefox firefox-3.0 firefox-3.0-branding firefox-3.0-gnome-support
  firefox-gnome-support gedit gedit-common ghostscript ghostscript-x
  gnome-cards-data gnome-control-center gnome-games gnome-games-data
  gnome-panel gnome-panel-data gnome-pilot gnome-power-manager
  gnome-settings-daemon gnome-terminal gnome-terminal-data
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly hal-info human-theme initramfs-tools
  jockey-common jockey-gtk language-pack-en language-pack-en-base
  language-pack-es language-pack-es-base language-pack-gnome-en
  language-pack-gnome-en-base language-pack-gnome-es
  language-pack-gnome-es-base language-pack-gnome-xh
  language-pack-gnome-xh-base language-pack-xh language-pack-xh-base
  libapparmor-perl libapparmor1 libasound2-plugins libavahi-client3
  libavahi-common-data libavahi-common3 libavahi-compat-libdnssd1
  libavahi-core5 libavahi-glib1 libavahi-gobject0 libavahi-ui0 libbind9-40
  libcairo2 libcamel1.2-14 libcups2 libcupsimage2 libdecoration0
  libdeskbar-tracker libdns43 libebackend1.2-0 libebook1.2-9 libecal1.2-7
  libedata-book1.2-2 libedata-cal1.2-6 libedataserver1.2-11
  libedataserverui1.2-8 libegroupwise1.2-13 libexchange-storage1.2-3 libgadu3
  libgdata-google1.2-1 libgdata1.2-1 libglib2.0-0 libglib2.0-data
  libgnome-pilot2 libgnome-window-settings1 libgnomecanvas2-0
  libgnomecanvas2-common libgnutls26 libgphoto2-2 libgphoto2-port0 libgs8
  libgtkhtml-editor-common libgtkhtml-editor0 libgtkhtml3.14-19
  libgtksourceview2.0-0 libgtksourceview2.0-common libisc44 libisccc40
  libisccfg40 liblcms1 liblwres40 libnm-glib0 libnm-util0 libopal-2.2
  libpam-modules libpam-runtime libpam0g libpanel-applet2-0 libpango1.0-0
  libpango1.0-common libperl5.10 libpulse-browse0 libpulse0 libpulsecore5
  libshout3 libsmbclient libsnmp-base libsnmp15 libssl0.9.8
  libtotem-plparser12 libtracker-gtk0 libtrackerclient0 libv4l-0 libvolume-id0
  libwbclient0 libx11-6 libx11-data libx11-xcb1 libxml2 libxml2-utils
  linux-headers-2.6.27-7 linux-headers-2.6.27-7-generic
  linux-image-2.6.27-7-generic linux-libc-dev linux-restricted-modules-common
  login network-manager network-manager-gnome ntpdate nvidia-177-modaliases
  nvidia-96-modaliases openoffice.org-base-core openoffice.org-calc
  openoffice.org-common openoffice.org-core openoffice.org-draw
  openoffice.org-emailmerge openoffice.org-gnome openoffice.org-gtk
  openoffice.org-impress openoffice.org-math openoffice.org-style-human
  openoffice.org-writer openssl passwd perl perl-base perl-modules pm-utils
  ppp procps pulseaudio pulseaudio-esound-compat pulseaudio-module-gconf
  pulseaudio-module-hal pulseaudio-module-x11 pulseaudio-utils python-libxml2
  python-software-properties python-uno rhythmbox samba-common smbclient
  software-properties-gtk splix system-tools-backends totem totem-common
  totem-gstreamer totem-mozilla totem-plugins tracker tracker-search-tool
  tracker-utils transmission-common transmission-gtk ttf-opensymbol ubufox
  udev update-manager update-manager-core vinagre xkb-data
  xserver-xorg-input-evdev xserver-xorg-input-vmmouse xserver-xorg-video-ati
  xserver-xorg-video-radeon xterm xulrunner-1.9 xulrunner-1.9-gnome-support
218 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
Need to get 216MB of archives.
After this operation, 618kB of additional disk space will be used.
    
(In the Update Manager that comes with the GUI says that the download will be of 234.5 MB, perhaps it is refering to "apt-get dist-upgrade" that says "Need to get 246MB of archives." and 234.5 MB not being SI since converting 246 to MiB gives 234.60)

This is with Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex (8.10, i.e. the latest). And in my own experience, after this update, more of at least a quarter of that size comes in the future. But lets imagine that such big updates never occur and in fact the bigger is an eighth of the example above, then multiply it by half the Windows user base, do you thing that the difference in the current traffic and the multiplication would be small to not worry about at all?

Also note that the above example was run with no extra application installed, users normally will install more from the wonderful Synaptic making even more load on the servers and adding more software to the next automatic update. Even Microsoft don't have to face this because they offer updates to software produced by them, the updates for Firefox, Winamp, etc, etc, comes from the respective producers' servers.

It would be great that Linux/FreeBSD/whatever were more used, but apart of the usability problems commented on this forum, even if fixed (if really required), the next problem for Linux/FreeBSD/whatever would be how to survive to such a big user base.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 05:43
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
LocoDelAssembly, there are a lot of mirrors for different distros already - if popularity grew, there will surely be more servers to download from ^^.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 08:08
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
drhowarddrfine wrote:
Should the average Joe not use Windows because he can't edit the registry? Does the average Joe know how to use 'cmd'? In Linux, the only difference is that these are out in the open while Windows hides them.
The difference is that on Windows, you rarely ever need to touch the registry - on linux, there's a good chance you'll need to hand-edit config files every now and then if you're a power user. And then you're faced with each config file following their own format, instead of the unified interface the registry gives.

Oh, and what's "hidden" about the registry, pray do tell?

Anyway, the linux distribution mirrors should embrace torrent technology. Sure, you can already get most distros in .torrent form, but they're hardly ever backed up by any of the big mirrors. So you get better speeds by hammering a single university FTP or HTTP server instead of distributing the load via p2p. This is a real shame, and all the mirrors ought to run torrent clients...

Of course this would mainly benefit the .ISO downloads, .torrent probably wouldn't be a good idea for individual package updates (the tracker would need to have a shitload of registered torrents, and torrents are best for large-ish files). For software updates, a better technique would probably be to cycle through a big pool of mirrors, possibly grabbing from multiple mirrors at once to utilize the fast broadband connections that many people have (a lot of updates are going to be small, TCP generally picks up speed gradually - HTTP keep-alive and pipelining would also help), while not raping a single update server.

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Post 14 Jan 2009, 08:46
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
Some providers throttle torrent - not sure how or even how it is possible? but some people say its throttled and that may be a problem?

They do already provide torrents for some distributions - Ubuntu, Archlinux etc.
But only the ISOs, and not the updates unfortunately.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 08:53
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Throttling is usually done at protocol level, and can most times be circumvented via protocol encryption - unless your ISP uses some sneaky "oh, he's using 100+ connection" heuristics, or filter your HTTP traffic (ie., tracker requests) and connect the IPs from the scrape data with your next connections...

As for existing torrents, yes they're there, but usually shit speed because the big mirrors don't run torrent clients Sad
Post 14 Jan 2009, 08:59
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
Ah ok, makes sense.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 09:03
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
LocoDelAssembly wrote:

wonderful Synaptic



I predict that LocoDelAssembly will play around with the "wonderful Synaptic" on Ubuntu 8.10 for a few more months until he finds all the programs he wants and will never look back at windows again ...... time will tell if this comes true I guess.

Synaptic is brilliant isn't it, all the documentation for just about everything listed and a quick update for anything not yet on disk ...... I'm glad fodder knows about this cause with his liking for all things VC++/C++ he might start ranting on about microsoft documentation being brilliant or something equally silly Wink


Have you installed geany editor yet, version 0.14 and above (0.15 current) is just amazing. All one ever needs.



Open up (linux /user/share/geany) (windows C:\Program Files\Geany\data) -

filetype_extensions.conf and mov *.inc to the asm extension
Open filetypes.asm

Set fasm instead of nasm -

compiler=fasm "%f" "%e" ( windows compiler=fasm "%f" "%e.exe" )

and add -

run_cmd= "./%e"

so you can execute your program after you've run fasm.

Set key bindings to what you like and ..... exactly why do you need the brilliant (cough) M$ VC++


LocoDelAssembly, check out how geany on linux has a VTE (virtual terminal emulator) on linux and how powerful it is compared to the windows version which has ..... yawn, sorry I started writing about M$ and suddenly felt really tired Wink ..... anyway, just one example of how much better non windows OSes really are.


Your turn windows zealots!!!! ...... BTW windows zealots, if you're going too post, can you actually post facts about what can and can't be achieved on non windows OSes, the number of anti linux "I know sod all about linux but I'm just so cool I'm going to post nonsense anyway" posts are threatening to bring down the server Sad
Post 14 Jan 2009, 09:48
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
MichaelH, we can establish that linux can do what windows can - but not in the minds of many Smile. Thats what we're getting at.
I can do something in linux, and a windows user comes around has no clue, so he goes back to doing windows - thats the point.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 10:12
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
MichaelH: you're the one showing most zealotism Smile - writing "M$" is boring and infantile.

Synaptic (and the other package managers) are very nice, and I wish something like that was possible on Windows - that's one of the areas where linux has a clear advantage.

Linux documentation is still shit compared to MSDN, though.

Geany looks cute, but it seems to be more of a "Editor with some IDE functionality" rather than a full-blown IDE. Proper intellisense and powerful code browsing features are a must, refactorings appreciated. YMMV, but those are important features for me (and a lot of other developers). I'll probably take a look at it though...
Post 14 Jan 2009, 10:18
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