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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
Yes I used to search for that when I started linux, then I learnt VI and bash properly Razz... and never needed it.
I've not found a problem with Linux documentation... but I have with MSDN... but that might be personal opinion,
Post 14 Jan 2009, 10:27
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
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revolution
MichaelH: Good plan. Attack all the Windows posters by calling them zealots and saying they post nonsense. That should work brilliantly to help your cause and convert them all to Linux by tomorrow morning. How to win friends and influence people.

Here are some facts. Linux has a much smaller user base than Windows. And therefore their position is considerably less secure. This means the current Linux user base must come across as approachable, else people won't care to deal with them. Yelling constantly "Your OS sucks blah blah blah" does more harm than good. And the more one says it the more the others don't read it.

I find no merit in arguments regarding technical aspects of each OS. Sure some have better things than others, and vice versa also. But overall there is really not much difference technically. I think the major sticking point for many non-Windows users is that there is a big rich corporation behind it. And it seems people get somewhat reticent to contribute to that organisation and make it (and it's owners) richer. Sometimes is comes across as a being a kind of religion. I say a kind of religion and not a real religion because it is a religion of hate towards MS and not a religion of love towards Linux. I think any free OS would easily fill the requirement to give the finger to MS.

Regarding torrents: This is one of the worst ways to distribute stuff IMO. Travelling around different countries I have seen the enormous difference in quality and censoring that occurs. Torrents (emule et al.) are one of the first to get killed and no amount of (non VPN) encryption seems to help, the filters now days are very smart. Not only that, many ISPs will throttle the whole connection once they detect a file-sharing program. So even the HTTP stuff is now crawling. They do it as a kind of punishment. So I use a VPN now to do all my web access through a trusted friends company, but the cost is that I am forbidden to use any file-sharing programs. Fair enough too, else I would kill the connection for everyone else that uses it.


Last edited by revolution on 14 Jan 2009, 12:51; edited 2 times in total
Post 14 Jan 2009, 10:33
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
I agree with revolution, although I personally prefer Linux.

Tbh, all I'd wish is that software and hardware support for Linux was better (it is getting better).
Post 14 Jan 2009, 10:44
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Raedwolf: VI(m) isn't a bad editor (I prefer Notepad++ though - it has the keyboard shortcuts I need to be productive, and nice plugin support) and I also tend to use a shell often, even when developing with Visual Studio. For small projects, I often use just NP++ and a shell, but for anything slightly larger, the power of a full IDE comes in very handy. Depends on whether you learn to use the features of course, otherwise it's just going to be bloat (and if you're only doing assembly, no point in a big IDE Smile).

revolution: perhaps there'd be less incentive (or rather, bigger uproar against) throttling p2p traffic if there was more legit material available? Besides, I'm not saying torrents should be the only distribution method, just that it should be an alternative, and supported by the big infrastructure. I usually have no problem maxing out my 20mbit connection against one of the bigger HTTP mirrors, but I would prefer to spread out the load against multiple servers to "rape" them less. But currently when trying to grab a linux ISO via torrents, I get perhaps 100-200kb/s, which is lame.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 11:43
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
f0dder wrote:
100-200kb/s
haha, luxury, better than 0kb/s like some people get! But a fair comment about reducing the load. If your ISP allows torrents then I guess that would be a way to get things without overloading some of those weakly financed Linux distribution servers.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 12:16
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
is linux more complex than windows?

c:\
c:\program files\ << all your program files here
c:\document and settings << all the users documents and settings
c:\windows << windows stuffs.
c:\windows\temp << all temporarily files here.

so,basically windows filesystem is like above. which is pretty plain, tight and clean.

there is a reason why windows have 90+% market, coz they are user oriented, easy to pick up.
talk about installing driver, if a typical computer guy see how a person do it, he most probably able to do it on another pc.

compare to other os... while, those commands and so on... i let you imagine.

it is not really hard to break windows market if someone intend so, just make it less complex, user oriented, make it user expected.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 12:18
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
sleepsleep wrote:
is linux more complex than windows?

c:\
c:\program files\ << all your program files here
c:\document and settings << all the users documents and settings
c:\windows << windows stuffs.
c:\windows\temp << all temporarily files here.

so,basically windows filesystem is like above. which is pretty plain, tight and clean.

there is a reason why windows have 90+% market, coz they are user oriented, easy to pick up.
talk about installing driver, if a typical computer guy see how a person do it, he most probably able to do it on another pc.

compare to other os... while, those commands and so on... i let you imagine.

it is not really hard to break windows market if someone intend so, just make it less complex, user oriented, make it user expected.


You are right, it is not more complex, its simpler than windows Smile because its more structured.

/home <-- all users and documents
/etc <-- system specific settings
/usr <-- programs -- package manager
/usr/local <-- user compiled programs
/tmp <-- temporary folder

Program level is pretty consisten
/usr/bin <-- All program executables
/usr/lib <-- All program libraries
/usr/share <-- All program data (static)

Core os program stuff (command line interpreter etc (not many things go in here)
/bin
/lib

The equivalent will be the programs stored in C:\Windows\System{,32,64} and C:\Windows

but you forgot to mention settings in windows where are they kept -- in the big bloat thing they call the registry Razz.
or in the hidden Applications/Local? Settings folder C:\Documents and Settings\Users?\User

I cant remember the naming on windows (sorry)

Ok admittedly you might get confused with all the other names in the filesystem, but thats due to the unix philosophy where everything(well strictly not true because unix has its flaws - see plan9) is a file-centric OS, so processes, devices are all accessible as files etc. in /proc, /dev etc - but you don't need to touch those.

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Raedwulf
Post 14 Jan 2009, 12:43
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Raedwulf: One thing to note is that the various versions of Windows (95,98,NT,2000,XP,Vista) have different naming schemes for the folders. This can be a source of confusion for Windows users. Another annoying "feature" is the renaming of "my documents" to "<username>'s documents" automagically by explorer (not a physical renaming, but only on the screen). The whole "my ..." prefix thing should be completely eliminated IMO.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 12:59
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
Yea, thats why I can't remember, I've used every version of windows from 3.11 (yes I must have been like 6-7) except ME, and i have used vista, but only briefly.

On one hand, Microsoft's poor naming comes from the fact (I think) that they initially designed the OS on a single-user basis, and extended to a multi-user one.
On the other hand, linux is based on Unix and hence the multi-user concept was already there.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 13:01
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
f0dder wrote:

revolution: perhaps there'd be less incentive (or rather, bigger uproar against) throttling p2p traffic if there was more legit material available?


Don't know in your country but here that it is done to preserve bandwidth and hence reducing infrastructure upgrade costs and also for paying less bandwidth to the international carriers. My ISP, one if not the most expensive ISP in Argentina populates the service with plenty of SHITTY NetCache and/or BlueCoat proxies (in my zone both are used) and in the latter with stupid configurations like compressing some bad selected Content-Types to gzip or deflate (whatever is first in browser's "Accept-Encoding") making nearly all downloads size less (i.e. the browser never knows how much of the download is completed nor the actual size of the file) and unrestartable at times and lets don't forget how stupid compressing bzip2 files again with gzip or deflate is... Them are also responsible for the failures of signature verification in ATP and Synaptic so one of the first things I have to do is adding the http-aquire::Cache-Control:no-cache thing to prevent the problem of downloading half of the update files outdated. The servers repositories are to be blamed here a little though, they should take the time to install Apache's mod_expires and set appropriate cache controlling headers to prevent this problems and in case of wanting to take advantage of all the proxies that could be in the path then give a new filename every time a file is updated and mark the indexes as completely uncacheable. There are other issues I could comment about the proxies but don't affect nothing discussed here so I will omit them. Oh yes, I forgot to tell, in the case of the NetCache's, Content-Length bigger than 2 GB is handled incorrectly returning to you zero for the 2-4GB range and returning real_size mod 2^31 for the 4-6GB range (and the pattern repeats at higher sizes, looks like the real Content-Length being parsed as long long int but later casted as signed long and rejecting negative values replacing them with zero). Then, DVD images are normally impossible to download unless you use FTP or Torrent or whatever...

Needless to say, the transparent proxies are unavoidable unless the HTTP traffic (the only protocol supported by the proxy without dropping the connection immediately) don't pass through TCP port 80. (very VERY few times you find a server serving in other port than 80)

MichaelH, I've been using Synaptic for several years now between Ubuntu and plain Debian even when KDE was installed (KDE has its own package manager but I prefer a lot more Synaptic).

Now about the infrastructure subject, of course that currently there are mirrors but I think that all of them together cannot handle the volume that a user base as big as Windows' user base demand. Also, don't forget to count that even if the infrastructure is as big as Microsoft has (with Akamai and all), it would not suffice since the distros provide nearly all the software you will install and also the updates for all of them while Microsoft only provides automatic updates for their own (few) software. Also, it is not just a matter of how many concurrent users the infrastructure can support (which is important too of course), but also the bandwidth costs. We are very happy here with our broadband connection that costs always the same no matter how much traffic we generate monthly, but this is not necessarily true on the server side (to not risk to say that the price for high speed lines is always paid per bandwidth used).

In case it is not clear, I'm not saying that it is impossible to have such infrastructure, I'm just wondering how it could be maintained if it only receives founding from donations and some paid services provided by the maintainers that not everybody need. Comes Wikipedia to my mind now, mmmh, would such infrastructure and funding mechanism be enough?
Post 14 Jan 2009, 14:12
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
f0dder wrote:
But currently when trying to grab a linux ISO via torrents, I get perhaps 100-200kb/s, which is lame.
If that's bits, I can understand your complaint. If that's bytes, man you would be one crybaby Laughing (although I doubt that Wink).

sleepsleep wrote:
is linux more complex than windows?

c:\
c:\program files\ << all your program files here
c:\document and settings << all the users documents and settings
c:\windows << windows stuffs.
c:\windows\temp << all temporarily files here.

so,basically windows filesystem is like above. which is pretty plain, tight and clean.
Nah, on C:\ I only put the Windows itself and very few other stuff. I hate centralized settings. I try to put everything else on another partition (say D:\) that I organize it myself, and I do a much better job at it. Razz

(except for the registry and the stupid Documents and Settings obviously, which are freaking hard-coded Mad)

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Post 14 Jan 2009, 21:06
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Now I wrote a long response to fodder's posts and the site went down before I posted them. I'm not going to go through all this again and retype it so I'll just quote fodder and say "BULLSHIT!" to everything he said and that should cover it.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 22:11
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
drhowarddrfine wrote:

Now I wrote a long response to fodder's posts and the site went down before I posted them. I'm not going to go through all this again and retype it so I'll just quote fodder and say "BULLSHIT!" to everything he said and that should cover it.



Classic Smile




revolution wrote:

One thing to note is that the various versions of Windows (95,98,NT,2000,XP,Vista) have different naming schemes for the folders. This can be a source of confusion for Windows users. Another annoying "feature" is .....


Finally, after several hundred posts Shocked in several threads, some un bias posting by revolution Shocked



Fodder:

I use MSDN as well. Here is the command line so you can add it to your notepad++

examples:

platform sdk 2003 (PSDKSVR2003R2) -

"C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Help 9\dexplore.exe" /helpcol ms-help://MS.PSDKSVR2003R2.1033 /LaunchFKeywordTopic "the word you want dexplore" to search for"

windows wdk -


"C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Help 9\dexplore.exe" /helpcol ms-help://ms.WDK.v10.6001.071220 /LaunchFKeywordTopic "the word you want dexplore"


Now can you guys please reciprocate and start posting how to achieve things on windows and non windows OSes instead of getting involved in pointless arguments.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 23:01
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
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revolution
MichaelH wrote:
Finally, after several hundred posts Shocked in several threads, some un bias posting by revolution Shocked
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are biased.
Post 14 Jan 2009, 23:13
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
revolution:

True, but being bias means you're bias!

I've seen many times when you've got agro at newbies posting nonsense about things you are an expert on, yet you know next to nothing about linux (a newbie) and still you post endless nonsense (hundreds of post) about something you know little about..... IMO, people here have been very patient with you.

Through all these anti linux threads I've posted several posts on how to achieve things both on windows and non windows OSes .... as I said in my previous post, how about you reciprocate!
Post 14 Jan 2009, 23:28
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17287
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revolution
MichaelH: I guess you are correct. I never ever help anyone on this board. I am totally selfish, stubborn and ungrateful. I am constantly biting the heads off noobs. I always attack the poster and never the arguments presented (ad hominem). And I never thank anyone when they help me. Oh well, that's just little ol' me.
Post 15 Jan 2009, 00:01
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
revolution wrote:

MichaelH: I guess you are correct. I never ever help anyone on this board.


Certainly not when it come to non windows OSes it would seem Sad
Post 15 Jan 2009, 00:46
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
revolution wrote:
Oh well, that's just little ol' me.
Gosh, wrong again. In view of the brobdingnagian breadth of your posts, revolution, I had always assumed that you must be tall.
revolution wrote:
...I never ever help anyone on this board...
There you go again, spreading misinformation and malicious rumors! Just last year, you taught me about this excellent web site:
http://www.physorg.com/sort/date/
so, it is not correct to accuse yourself of being continuously unhelpful....
revolution wrote:
...I am constantly biting the heads off noobs.
Well, as one of those infamous FASM nooobies, whose head thus far has regenerated, several times, after repeated transections by dr. revolution, may I humbly point out that the errors I have committed, including some which you have kindly illustrated, were of such grotesqueness, as to inflict pain and suffering on all who encountered them, therefore, it was not all bad, from the FASM board's perspective, to have chopped off at least this nobody's head.
Post 15 Jan 2009, 12:45
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
tom, somehow I think he was sarcastic... Laughing

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Post 15 Jan 2009, 20:47
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baldr



Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 1651
baldr
Borsuc,

Probably you're right, but in a whole that sound somewhat… harsh?
Post 15 Jan 2009, 23:51
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