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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
most of the time, after i woke up, i knew i just had a dream and i remembered it vividly. (i experienced dream almost on every sleep)

eg. during the dream, i went to somewhere and meet somebody.

problem is, i got a feeling i knew the place and the person, eventhough after querying my whole life time memories, i failed to identify the place and person, (but the feeling that i knew the place and the person is so strong and convincing)

is this some kinda illness or is there a term for such experience / behaviour?
Post 26 Oct 2008, 10:43
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
You mean something like a Deja Vu? I get that all the time. I dream of something, I remember a moment, and IT HAPPENS the exact same moment and feeling sometime later (or the next day) :S

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Post 26 Oct 2008, 13:04
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
it is something like Deja Vu, but Deja Vu happens on real life right?

mine happened in dream, like during the dream, all seems so familiar, like u know the person, met him/her, know her house is 1st floor and so on. it seems like catching on previous dream.

but after you woke up in real life, and try to refigure who is that person, where is the location and so on, you failed. but all seems so familiar and recognizable during dream.
Post 26 Oct 2008, 14:36
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HyperVista



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I experience Deja Vu and amnesia simultaneously .... <just a joke>

I know what you mean, sleepsleep. I occasionally have a reacurring dream where I wonder around a very familiar city (ancient city, like Rome or Athens). I am quite familiar with the streets and buildings in the dream.

Not sure what to make of it. Some would say it's a vision of a previous life. But I don't put much stock in that theory.

I don't think it's an illness. You may be running through or practicing a relationship you've had but are supressing. Your dream is running you through it in hopes of getting it right. Just a thought.
Post 26 Oct 2008, 18:59
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tom tobias



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Post 27 Oct 2008, 07:51
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I'm not sure how any psychology can explain Deja Vus, I read a bit and they just repeat why we are interested in dreams, that we want to make sense out of them. But some of my dreams are frightening in a way that they affect me later on, and even more weird, some of those moments "repeat" in real life (i mean the exact same view and feelings at that moment) which is why I call it a Deja Vu.

Most times I don't want to make sense out of those dreams out of fear Razz

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Post 27 Oct 2008, 12:55
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vid
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The "repeating"/deja-vu feeling is IMO easily explainable by how many parts of memory works - we could call it "pattern matching". You have stored certain patterns, and when something doesn't fit exactly, "closest match" is selected. That way seems to be easy to implement on neurological level, is plausible to evolve naturally, and explains things like: when you hear something not well enough, you don't end up with not-enough-data, but brain selects some word that roughly matches what you hear (even if it is not correct, just close). AFAIK, event memory works in similar way (even though more high-level of course), and so you can happen to get that "omg, this already happened" feeling by false match. Since emotion is proven to be the key data in remembering events, it can hold part of key to deja-vus too.

Another good hypothesis i have read about is that event is immediately stored into long-term memory, so you feel like it happened long ago, so explanation made up by conciousness (we know conciousness strives to explain everything even if explanation is obviously false) is that same event happened twice: long time ago (long-term memory) and lately (from short-term memory). This hypothesis IMO too provides good explanation for deja-vu. This also fits my observations that during most deja-vus, i can't recall any precise details on previous time something happened (unlike with other events i remember). The memory of previous time is always very faint, and feels like re-remembering something after long time - just like we would expect from this last explanation.
Post 27 Oct 2008, 14:27
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edfed



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edfed
les déjà-vus, comme le dit si bien vid sont des trucs du genre probabilités.

deja vus, like said vid, are things like probabilities.

your brain will make some simulations while you dream.
and when you wake up, you have a lot of possible ways that can happens in real, but only few effectivelly happens and brings you the dear deja-vu sensation.

or maybe it's like a spiritual travel in the 7th dimension, somewhere i live too much you know.
Post 27 Oct 2008, 18:13
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Borsuc



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vid: I am talking about a different kind of Deja Vu. For example, once I dream of something. I don't remember it when I wake up, but only when I experience it (you used the Long-term explanation here). HOWEVER, the moment I realize that I have already been in this situation, usually lasts more than just a "moment". For example, if I wait at a train station (just an example) and see someone calling on his cellphone, and I have a Deja Vu, I immediately also remember what WILL HAPPEN, and it happens within 5 seconds at most (nothing to do with my "actions" because I stay still and just watch). In this example, if I were to have that Deja Vu and also remember that a bicycle rider is going to have an accident in the next few seconds, then that's going to happen. Unfortunately most of these times I "can't" intervene because simply the feeling of that Deja Vu prevents me from taking any quick and major actions, it's like I am a ghost that just watches an event that he/she knew before but can't intervene immediately.

But sometimes such Deja Vus last a lot more, and I can take some action -- but after I take the action I realize that the action itself makes the whole Deja Vu take place, even though I knew that such action would lead to such outcome, I simply can't "control" so to speak. Yet I already knew this before hand. It's hard to explain. Pretty weird IMO and happens relatively often to me Confused

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Post 27 Oct 2008, 20:20
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vid
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I never experienced anything like that... if it would take only very shortly, it could be explained by processing delay, but not more than few seconds.

If more than that, I can't explain.

Hmm, why is it that everything supernatural is always completely unreproducable and untestable? I would prefer supernatural things to be easily demonstrable, that would make position of mythers so much easier. Like in Bible, you say "Yahweh", or piss on the wall, and lighting strucks yo&#$@*@

Laughing
Post 27 Oct 2008, 21:39
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vid
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Thinking of it... If it happens "relatively often", can you quickly say what will happen to someone else before it happens? That could rule out subjectivistic explanation. Also, it will help you to take count how many times you mispredicted (but also try to keep track of that yourself).

It would surely be interesting to see log of correct predictions and misprections, with some details (what was predicted, how soon in advance, any other people involved, etc...)
Post 27 Oct 2008, 21:46
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Well relatively often means like once per week (but it's so random, sometimes i got each day for a few days).. and of course I would like to have control over it but it's a strange feeling, like feeling you can't do anything (not calling it supernatural yet hehe), like out of control. Sometimes the feeling is kind of "paralyzation" for some reason.

I know probably if I could explain it better it would be easier but meh Confused

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Post 27 Oct 2008, 22:20
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vid
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I just found this very nice article on dreams, confronting some paranormalists: http://skepdic.com/dreams.html
Post 13 Nov 2008, 17:56
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bitRAKE



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I've experienced a similar thing happening many times - to the frightening point of avoiding places - not wanting the things I imaged to take place. My logical mind cannot explain it besides to think of the predictive aspect of the mind as well as the fact that we are sensive beyond measure (talking of the combined senses - not a single sense).

When I was living in a dangerous town there was a dire need to be aware of my environment. Have you ever looked for places to hide? I am talking extreme fear - living in that condition for several years. There are all kinds of things the mind does - we need a virtual foundation of some type to function and not just freeze up like a deer in the headlights.

Some talk about the "reptile" brain controlling the four F's: fight, flight, forage and fornicate. And they say we are like other animals, but I believe our "reptile" brain certainly works in coordination with the rest of the brain. These predictive dreams might be a feature of that coordination?

(Eh, I've babbled enough.)
Post 13 Nov 2008, 18:45
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Nice article vid Smile

but like any such article, it of course assumes a lot about the "deja vus". Not to mention, why exactly (though i do not claim that it is!!!) is it "supernatural"? What is "natural"? Something that is controllable? I wouldn't call it supernatural even if it were true. but I'm getting off topic.

Some quotes I picked:

Quote:
If a significant number of dreams of just a single person corresponded to future events, this would be a great benefit to humankind and we should try to find out what mechanism is at work here.
Most people are not aware of Deja Vus (at least how it is in me) until they happen. Who said it is uniformly distributed? Furthermore he assumes that it is controllable --> who said that in the first place?

Quote:
But the vast majority of prophetic dreams are probably coincidences.
How exactly does he calculate such probability? I know what he meant but he assumes a lot about the "nature" of such phenomenon. (see below)

Quote:
If the odds are a million to one that any given dream is truly prophetic, then, given the number of people on earth and the average number of dreams people have during each sleep period (250 dream themes a night, according to Hines, p. 50), we should expect that every single day of our lives there will be more than 1.5 million dreams that seem clairvoyant.
Here he blindly assumes that the "mechanism at work" as he puts it is completely uniform across people and obeys simple "laws". Probably, especially if what he calls 'supernatural', it is random, or maybe there is no "mechanism" at all, but something more complex (people like Einstein used to dismiss Quantum Mechanics precisely because it wasn't plausible enough for them; if I'm not mistaken he said that Quantum mechanics signifies "the end of physics as a science" or something, since it's a mechanism based on chance rather than concrete determinism).

Why assume that it is distributed uniformly to prove what? I don't get it what people have with those that think they have prophecies, it is like they are somehow afraid of their predictions or the fact that they can predict sometimes, or afraid of the "supernatural" since otherwise they would just let them make fools of themselves (and people WILL make fools of themselves because there ARE a LOT of lying people!). Sure, there ARE a lot of liars around, I do not say everyone is perfect and honest; some may do it for fame/popularity. But what is the point he is trying to make here -- first he assumes it's real, even though it may very well not be. But then the whole thing falls apart when he assumes that it is uniformly distributed or that it follows a simple mechanism we can understand.

(for example, such mechanism could be Matrix-style and we may be in Virtual Reality)

sure like I said there's no reason to believe that, but he is the one looking and searching for such mechanism, not me Wink

I just have the Deja Vus which seem highly strange and I can predict well when I have them -- problem is, I can't control them, I have absolutely no idea when it'll happen -- I only know when "it started" already (the deja vu) and can last for a few seconds, so I can predict those few seconds. But until it happens, I have no idea about it. Still it still happens quite frequently (but most times it happens when something uninteresting, like reading a book and getting a "familiar" paragraph and knowing what follows even though I didn't read it before, or just walking around the street, etc, in short nothing interesting most times). The idea is that, I am almost certain most assumptions made about it are false, and it is why probably it is hard for people to accept something, unless it happens frequently like in my case.

For example, they expect a controllable, easy method of prediction whenever you want, which is completely different than the "real" Deja Vus if you have experienced any (I'm talking about my experience here). It is a bit childish for me to assume such things to prove what point? What is the point being made? That Deja Vus are not very easily controllable to our will? (I think most science revolves about such "control" and it's why it might fail here)

By its very nature it is not that way, and if he even had experience with people with Deja Vus he would know that.

So the conclusion is that I have absolutely no idea when it happens. You see, I am not claiming that I KNOW how it works at all. It just happens to me. Very hard to dismiss when it happens like twice a week (albeit most times "uninteresting" like I said, but still gives me that chill feeling of prediction, I dunno if you know about it).

That's like me seeing gravity in work, not understanding how it works, and being kidnapped by aliens who live in gravity-less worlds and they ask me what is gravity. I don't know (in this example), but I've experienced it, and I'm pretty damn sure it is there. And I do not know the way back Wink

in fact, it's like the saying:
Quote:
"How do I know when I'll have a Deja Vu?"
"You'll know it when it happens!"



but it was an interesting read I must say Smile

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Post 13 Nov 2008, 20:20
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vid
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Quote:
Why assume that it is distributed uniformly to prove what? I don't get it what people have with those that think they have prophecies, it is like they are somehow afraid of their predictions or the fact that they can predict sometimes, or afraid of the "supernatural" since otherwise they would just let them make fools of themselves (and people WILL make fools of themselves because there ARE a LOT of lying people!). Sure, there ARE a lot of liars around, I do not say everyone is perfect and honest; some may do it for fame/popularity. But what is the point he is trying to make here -- first he assumes it's real, even though it may very well not be. But then the whole thing falls apart when he assumes that it is uniformly distributed or that it follows a simple mechanism we can understand.

I don't see how that argument rests on assumption that this ability is uniformly distributed. He does use averages, but nowhere needs this phenomena to be uniformly distributed. I also don't see where the article assumes existence of such phenomena. He simply shows that extremely improbable things (like predictions) are bound to happen all the time, given number of people and time we have.

Quote:
For example, they expect a controllable, easy method of prediction whenever you want, which is completely different than the "real" Deja Vus if you have experienced any (I'm talking about my experience here). It is a bit childish for me to assume such things to prove what point? What is the point being made? That Deja Vus are not very easily controllable to our will? (I think most science revolves about such "control" and it's why it might fail here)

Who "they" expects that? Expecting that would be strawman argument, since no one claims to have such, but I am not aware of any skeptic who claims deja-vus are controllable, so it looks like strawman from you. Also, even rare things you can't control are observable, even though it is hard especially if it has to be done with high scientific standard. If it happens twice a week, that's ideal chance to put it in focus, and try to experiment with it, to see how it happens under various conditions.

Do you get false dejavus, eg. you predict wrongly? Are you always "paralyzed" from beginning, until your prediction is fullfilled? That, at least for me, would hint towards later brain confabulation of memories into prediction. Do you get this kind of deja-vus predicting more time ahead than just few seconds?

As proponent of Occam razor type thinking, I am inclined to explain deja-vus as brain confabulation (we know such confabulation happens often and is always completely persuasive to people, even if it is complete bullshit), until there is some data which proves this false or explains phenomena better.
Post 13 Nov 2008, 22:55
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
I don't see how that argument rests on assumption that this ability is uniformly distributed. He does use averages, but nowhere needs this phenomena to be uniformly distributed. I also don't see where the article assumes existence of such phenomena. He simply shows that extremely improbable things (like predictions) are bound to happen all the time, given number of people and time we have.
But it is uniformly distributed across all people, in his assumption Wink

For example (silly example just to show you the idea), maybe only people that eat a certain type of food, AND have something else (for example) are able to do it. That would decrease the probabilities considerably.

Not to mention, like i said, lots of times these so-called "predictions" are not interesting (like when reading a book). For example, did you expect that I would tell the "world" that I have such deja vus if it weren't for this forum?

For example, I'm pretty sure at least one of my friends has such deja vus (I talked to him) but that's it... it's somewhat private. It happens sometimes when we read, uninteresting and all that, or when we look at something... that is, we KNOW what follows in the book for like 10-15 seconds (depending on how fast we read, we know 1-2 short paragraphs)... This isn't very interesting in itself, but it is out of control, it's not like we WANT it. Therefore how exactly can such "hidden" people be counted for statistics when they don't even get into the highlight?

In fact, how would you get into the highlight anyway? You'll be accused of tricks especially because you can't "do it on demand" like today's business-oriented science is about. Sad

There's this series called "Supernatural" with demons and such (no, I do not say it's true!!!) but it gives good reasons why "psychics" hide away and are not "popular" so to speak. (again, it doesn't make it true, but it only makes the argument that "why there aren't so many of them" have less value, since the answer is "because they are not in the highlight"; after all, who would be without having control of his abilities (like RANDOM visions for example)).

vid wrote:
Who "they" expects that? Expecting that would be strawman argument, since no one claims to have such, but I am not aware of any skeptic who claims deja-vus are controllable, so it looks like strawman from you. Also, even rare things you can't control are observable, even though it is hard especially if it has to be done with high scientific standard. If it happens twice a week, that's ideal chance to put it in focus, and try to experiment with it, to see how it happens under various conditions.
Hmm not sure what you mean. You mean like me reading a book and then telling them what's on the next page? That's kinda hard, since it needs to happen 10-15 seconds before I flip the page, and it also needs to happen at that moment in reading. And I can't just read ANY book, since they would accuse me of "reading it before". So I'll have to get a whole week into such status, when I'm not even sure if it'll happen in such conditions (maybe I need "normal living" for it to happen, for example). Maybe such stress will make it happen sometimes arbitrarily (not to mention, happening before flipping the page 10-15 seconds is low probability).

What I said that he assumes a lot is that he says "surely if people had such predictions it would be a global phenomenon" -- but look at me! I wouldn't even be a "global phenomenon", in fact none apart from my friends would know that I have Deja Vus. Who would I talk to? How would I become a global phenomenon? If it weren't for this forum I wouldn't even be noticed. In fact, many people might be aware of them but simply don't care and dismiss it...

Not to mention, maybe it is influenced by many factors (silly example: black people don't have it)? Another assumption on his part is that it is distributed equally, which it isn't. It's more like a disease, but not a "negative" one.

vid wrote:
Do you get false dejavus, eg. you predict wrongly? Are you always "paralyzed" from beginning, until your prediction is fullfilled? That, at least for me, would hint towards later brain confabulation of memories into prediction. Do you get this kind of deja-vus predicting more time ahead than just few seconds?
False deja vus? Not really since maybe if it WERE false I wouldn't even notice. It is not "images", it is a feeling of being there before.

And usually I get 5-6 seconds, sometimes 10-15, only once around 25-30. I didn't count so my answer could be biased, but it's how it "seemed" to me (relative to the others I had of course).

And obviously I didn't claim that we have data with it. That guy with the Deja Vus did not use "lack of data" as argument however. He used the argument that if it is true then xyz, which I argued that it is flawed reasoning and making too many assumptions on such "if" Wink

Obviously I do not expect someone else to make sense out of it and claim it is true, when even I who experiences it doesn't make sense out of it. So I do not expect someone else to -- but the guy in the article claims that we SHOULD make sense out of it, and he uses "if it is true then xyz" arguments which are based on naive assumptions. That is, he doesn't flat-out say "I'm not sure whether Deja Vus are real or not, but I have no data to confirm" (well I for one consider my experiences "data", but that's like observing gravity, WITHOUT understanding it at all! since I don't).

And why would "brain confabulation" make more sense than Deja Vus? I'm not even talking about "supernatural" (whatever it means, like I said, we first have to define "natural" Wink). I'm talking that such "brain confabulation" is also out of our control since we can't really 'imagine' what it happens and when precisely -- but seems to me like a good "fill-out" for someone who wants a short answer to it. I'm not saying it is false (just like religion could be considered a "fill-out" but it may be true nonetheless).

Occam's Razor would rather have this as "it just is... I'm not sure" since it would be easiest. Brain confabulation doesn't tell us much (apart from an "obvious" answer), neither does Deja Vu.

(or maybe, for something to make sense, must it be controllable given proper conditions? I think it's kinda limiting assumption...)



EDIT: ps: not to mention that if someone finds that I do have "somewhat" controllable/frequent Deja Vus (which I doubt), and they are serious about it, they would lock me up for government or research purposes, just a lab animal... do you think they would pass such a chance? Maybe all such "famous" psychics got locked up for research and didn't got into the Gods' attention we worship and listen to and take for granted, mysteriously called the media Wink

(there are soooo many movies made about this, even comics like X-Men portrays it as "abominations" of some sort; one of them must have a point somewhere at least Wink)

95% of what we "know" comes from the media. What is the circumference of the Earth? How do you know? Who is the president? How do you know? What kind or how many dinosaur bones have been found? How do you know? (assuming you didn't dig them all by yourself of course Razz)

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Post 14 Nov 2008, 13:41
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Since this is a programming forum:

Are You Living In a Computer Simulation?

this is an article listed on that page: Living in a Simulated Universe:
Quote:
We explain why, if we live in a simulated reality, we might expect to see occasional glitches and small drifts in the supposed constants and laws of Nature over time.
maybe Deja Vus are because of such glitches

or maybe it's like in the Matrix movie: Deja Vus happen when someone uploads something on the world Wink
Post 14 Nov 2008, 15:35
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