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Index > Compiler Internals > A move for ASM standardization

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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
I am sorry to announce that this move somehow failed.

The discussion diverted from ASM standards towards HLL versus ASM usage and insists a little bit too much on MASM / YASM syntax only while I intended to keep the doors open for other assemblers and syntaxes.

I took the decision to close the sub forum soon because I will not offer support for the kind of statements that Agner made about how HLL or C++ languages are better than ASM.

I could debate him for ever but this serves no purpose for an ASM standard.

I ask for forgiveness from the people that posted there in good will.
Post 04 Nov 2008, 17:16
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baldr



Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 1651
baldr
bogdanontanu,

It's sad that you're closing that forum, but I understand your position. Holy wars are not constructive anyway.

Besides, what about free-form assembler, like that:
Code:
u32@eax CRC32(buffer@esi, dword_count@ecx) {
    eax = -1;
    do {
        eax ^= [esi++];
        bl = 32;
        do { eax >>= 1; if (CF) eax ^= 0xEDB88320; } while (--bl);
    } loop;
    eax ^= -1;
}    
Wink
Post 04 Nov 2008, 18:01
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
Interesting "non standard" syntax Wink
Post 04 Nov 2008, 19:07
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
bogdan: I think that is a bit too much emotions going in. Wouldn't it be enough to just delete HLL vs. Asm offtopic, and keep supporting the standardization, which you yourself support? I think by doing this you could badly hurt the effort.
Post 05 Nov 2008, 07:42
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
vid wrote:
bogdan: I think that is a bit too much emotions going in. Wouldn't it be enough to just delete HLL vs. Asm offtopic, and keep supporting the standardization, which you yourself support? I think by doing this you could badly hurt the effort.


vid,

Yes, I have thought of it and this is my new proposition I made on the MASM forums. If this is acceptable then I will re open the forums for discussions:

myself wrote:

One alternative solution I see to this issue would be that I do moderate Agner.

I did not wanted to do this because after all it was his request and because of this I considered removing the forums a better solution. But if we want to save what can be saved from the ideas and discussions then I would have to remove the HLL glorification parts from Agner's posts and do so in any other future posts also.

This would also imply a more drastic set of rules for this sub forum that would exclude the praise for HLL benefits over ASM and not allowing posts that try to diminish the importance of ASM or areas of ASM use in modern or future world.

Agner also made statements about how MASM would disappear in the future because it is not profitable etc... this would also have to go.

HLL topics would be allowed only if they refer to interoperability or compatibility with ASM and will be secondary in importance to ASM core discussions. ASM comes first on an ASM standardization forum.

I will also disallow wars in between assemblers like in: "my assembler syntax is so much better than your assembler's syntax", all assemblers have to be considered with an open mind and I would recommend a move to favor ASM concepts versus "form" although it is clear that some example of forms have to be documented and recommended.

At least one or two alternative syntax forms to the well know MASM syntax should also be recommended and a place for smaller ASM syntax variations should be provided.

IMHO this will not be a standard obtained by collapsing all current syntax variations into a single unique one but a standard by conceptual unity in a diversity of form.

I will not support the "rape" of the minority by imposing the will of the majority over it and I will also not support the alternative of imposing the will of a minority "elite" over the majority. Both alternatives are wrong and we need another solution.

Additionally I am "well known" to consider GPL and open source as a "disease" of programming and very detrimental to human race's evolution. Hence I would also not allow praise or glorification of such practices.

If this set of more strict rules are acceptable to Agner and other important participants then I will again open the forums for discussion...

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."
Post 06 Nov 2008, 02:21
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Come on, "if they don't agree with me, they can't talk on my website"? That's pretty totalitarian, how about some plurality of opinions and some intellectual opposition, which is nescessary for everyone to advance and to correct wrong ideas?

I agree that talks about HLLs are not needed in Asm standardization topic, and can be moderated out as offtopic (not because you don't agree with them). But future of MASM is, i think, quite important to topic and should remain. So is the realistic view on current decreasing importance of assembly, because it affects target group of proposed syntax.

But anyway, I doubt Agner would participate after this.
Post 06 Nov 2008, 11:07
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Endre



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Endre
DOS386 wrote:
But this won't help too far if you have C code and as long as GCC can't brew anything except AT&T

gcc -S -masm=intel XYZ.c -o XYZ.s
Post 11 Nov 2008, 12:26
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KingDemon



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Somewhere in Romania
KingDemon
Quote:

I think that is a bit too much emotions going in.

You're right about that. Assembly is supposed to be fun, remember? I don't blame anyone who doesn't remember, though. You're probably pretty old. Razz Just think back to the first assembly programs you wrote, and you'll remember... I don't think anyone can standardize that. It's just curiosity and fun, not effort, struggle or need for attention. If you don't like something you just fix it for yourself and maybe post it somewhere online and then others might stumble on it and like it. That's how I found FASM. Nobody pushed me into using it. It just sat there and I thought it was better than MASM so I started using it.
I also think Bogdan's forum should stay online if he has time to moderate it properly. Who knows? Maybe something good will come of it, but I must say I haven't visited it yet and don't intend to. Then again, I'm a noob(nobody) around here.... Cheers!
Post 14 Nov 2008, 11:55
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DOS386



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1901
DOS386
Endre wrote:
gcc -S -masm=intel XYZ.c -o XYZ.s


Thanks: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=9454
Post 21 Nov 2008, 02:01
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