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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
tom tobias wrote:
Today, four--five decades later, we still are following the old conventions, the old methods. I believe that we need to CHANGE our thinking, to catch up to Everhest!! And that means, we need to DISCARD the old fashioned idea that memory is so precious, as it was in the era when UNIX was invented. In turn, that thought, requires us to ask, which OTHER notions from the '50's and '60's, particularly our practices in assembly language programming, could ALSO be very much, OBSOLETE. There is much to be done. (I am not writing only to criticize XOR, but use of stack, for example, FPU instructions, use of multiple addressing modes, etc...) There are MANY habits, which we assembly language programmers have acquired these past fifty years, NOT because they represent the BEST way to do something, but because of
(a) tradition, or,
(b) the myth of "saving memory",
(c) the myth of "saving time".
You know what I like about you tom? You never cease to amaze me. I mean, you continuously use the term "modern" and all that, while in fact you are referring to this:

1) Time means better hardware -- it gets better, good
2) Time means worse software -- it gets more bloated, more time-consuming, bad

You are telling us to make software WORSE as time passes, for me that is a devolved kind of mentality, since we will rely on hardware to get slower software to work. I know, I'm too philosophical about this, but I just had to say it.

Maybe it is a tradition, what's bad in that? Just because you don't value "traditions" doesn't mean others shouldn't. (obviously that is not the reason, but what I said above, this was more like sarcasm)
Post 12 Jul 2008, 12:25
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
Everhest wrote:
assembler my third programming language. The First and interesting this was Turbo Pascal, I his studied without computer. On book in library. When have bought the computer, 2 months programming on Pascal , on Delphi then and floor of the year programmed. Then, the friend has advised MASM, (MASM - not interesting) and I became on FASM.
Pascal was my third language, and it was assembler library book for me. Very Happy Algorithms and data structures are more important than language, imho (...and of course, the never ending study of math).

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Post 12 Jul 2008, 15:10
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Everhest



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
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Everhest
The_Grey_Beast Forgive, but I you have not understood. If you will not obstruct explain on more simply your thought.

bitRAKE I was happily when has done the first program on Pascall. (Hello World!) And you?

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Post 12 Jul 2008, 23:37
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
Everhest wrote:
I was happily when has done the first program on Pascall. (Hello World!) And you?
I cannot recall what I wrote first in Pascal. At the time, the structure of the language intrigued me as I changed from using Logo and BASIC. Also, the compiler was very good compared to BASIC - in fact it was this extreme difference which lead to my discovery of assembler. Assembler was no harder to code than Pascal and seemed easier for me to debug. This was before Object Pascal - never programed much in that.

I've never really been concerned with the "lifetime" of code. I'm not trying to support a legacy, or leave something for children to read. I code for enjoyment and to accomplish a task. Information technology moves too fast to build legacies within it -- it is a mistake to tie it down like that, imho.

Some might try to argue that the use of x86 is such a legacy, but when it is gone there will be another assembly language. The structure of which might force a shift to a higher level of abstraction - like the shift from machine code to mnemonics. It will be something fundamentally different from what we know now.

Many people get the sense it is around the corner, but no one really knows what it will be. Maybe we will just throw fragments of code into a mix to sculpt emergent properties - genetic, evolutionary, quantum, non-linear, real-time, ... ? This sequential linear programming/processing has severe limitations -- all the obvious reasons why biology doesn't function like a computer and more.

(Sorry, I've been sick this past day and my head is foggy - like this long winded post.)

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Post 13 Jul 2008, 07:01
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
Everhest wrote:
The_Grey_Beast Forgive, but I you have not understood. If you will not obstruct explain on more simply your thought.
Well I was talking to tom tobias (sarcastically). He said that we should avoid optimization because hardware now is better -- but that means we (programmers) need not improve, but rather devolve just because something else gets good, why can't software too?

These days too many people are whining about the "development" and don't care about the end user (speed/bloat/whatever) they only care to have an easy development, and frankly the average programmer these days is MUCH WORSE than back then, and this is one of the reason. Programmers are now not considered anymore "masters" of some sort -- but they are also whining a lot more than back then.

Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. Razz
Post 13 Jul 2008, 11:53
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Quote:

1) Time means better hardware -- it gets better, good
2) Time means worse software -- it gets more bloated, more time-consuming, bad


today - shortest time to program a solution = $$, it doesn't have to be the best, the smallest size or the most optimized algorithm, IT JUST NEEDS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. full stop.

u want a POS, a insurance calculation presentation graphs, cybercafe software, customer database... and etc? if u ask a vb guy to do it, it could presents to you in a matter of one week or etc more week. (not years!!)

more human = more problem = more solution needed = faster solution needed.

of course, asm will prevail, coz there are areas that one must know the bits and bytes accurately.
Post 13 Jul 2008, 19:57
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
sleepsleep wrote:
today - shortest time to program a solution = $$, it doesn't have to be the best, the smallest size or the most optimized algorithm, IT JUST NEEDS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. full stop.
I understand what you mean, but if you want to just solve the problem, why the hell code in assembly anyway? That's why I said it to tom, because tom thinks that assembly should not be concerned about SPEED or SIZE, but that is its whole purpose else why not use a HLL or VB???
Post 13 Jul 2008, 20:45
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Everhest



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 84
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Everhest
You love its work? Tell me please.
Post 14 Jul 2008, 20:14
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
I don't understand what you mean, but if you asked if I love assembly, then my answer is: I love optimization (obviously to some extent).

I'm only saying that I like people like me (and some in this forum) have a programming language to code in what they want to achieve (optimization). People like tom tobias should use Visual Basic or Java or some HLL Razz
Post 15 Jul 2008, 13:35
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Everhest



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Russia
Everhest
Smile

You pleased? (that job the programmer).
Post 15 Jul 2008, 20:02
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
Well optimization is a hobby (not a job) so it's obvious I am pleased... I am also proficient in 3D graphics and some signal processing. Smile

jobs these days are few with asm unfortunately Sad
but hobby is fine Wink
Post 15 Jul 2008, 20:18
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Everhest



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Russia
Everhest
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
Well optimization is a hobby (not a job) so it's obvious I am pleased... I am also proficient in 3D graphics and some signal processing. Smile


Then say me web link to want to do 3D model of its room Smile screensaver OpenGL programming.

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Post 16 Jul 2008, 13:21
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Hi,

My collection includes a very large range of articles I found on the net, I don't know their links anymore. However, I have uploaded something of interest to you, a small percentage of my Books & Articles collection (rapidshare):

http://rapidshare.com/files/130129902/Article___Book_collection.rar

password: fasm

It is a solid archive so if it gives any errors, re-download it, very important. Also note that the books are only about OpenGL -- "the Red Book" is sort of a 'reference' where you will find functions and all that, not tutorials. The Shading Language is very good for programming with shaders (that means, "programmable" piece of codes that the GPU executes). The SuperBible might also be interesting for you.

Above all, you first have to be familiar with math and the ideas behind. I normally don't even use OpenGl, for 'testing' my math algorithms, I usually use software rendering, that is rendering with the processor (Operating System, not with API that use hardware acceleration).

I recommend Software rendering when you teach yourself. It is one of the best ways to understand the inner mathematics and logical relationships between objects in 3D space.

I hope my articles won't confuse you, I assure you I have had a lot more trouble at first -- the idea is to incrementally build your knowledge (read a few each day). They are not all 100% applicable with a step by step approach sorry. They are more like "references" of particular methods used in graphics.

If you have the knowledge, you can even create your own drawing methods, and I would recommend it -- if you do, it would be nice to post in forums, especially if the method is fast and innovative Smile

For starters (software rendering) I recommend the Software Rendering School (found in the articles & tutorials), it should get you started with the basics.

The "Signal Processing" folder is more concerned with signal processing like audio (or video), not really with 3D, but it's interesting ideas there, you might even apply them in a strage and innovative way to 3D, who knows? Smile

Oh I almost forgot about Michael Abrash's Black Book (talks about Quake engine optimization, it's old, but GOOD for knowledge of math and optimization). Here I uploaded it on MediaFire:

http://www.mediafire.com/?l41fgr3ym4j



oh and there are some websites that host some of these articles, or are targeted at 3D or game programming. A few:

www.devmaster.net
www.gamedev.net
www.gametutorials.com

and many others I have not used yet Smile My advice is to start seeing how others do it, read some articles that seem interesting, browse or put questions on forums like the above, etc... just don't be shy about it Wink

hope this helped you more than it confused you Wink
Good Luck!
Post 16 Jul 2008, 14:21
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
Nice stuff, I only started some assembly when I was 16-17 Razz.
Post 17 Jul 2008, 06:18
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