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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Errrm, what was so wise from Jesus?

Only good thing I remember, pacifism (eg. "don't fight back"), seems to be logical behavior for initially extremely small paulinic offshott from very small christianity cult.

Most other catholic NT teachings attributed to jesus give sense in this manner, like that you must hate your own family in order to be his follower - I quess those greek jews didn't like their jesus-worshipping relatives too much, and vice-versa, jesus worshippers had to leave their families and go out spreading the cult. Or another teaching, that no true Jesus follower can have any possessions, nothing to tie him to any place. This "nomadic" strategy made cult very hard to eliminate and gave it great chances to spread, as it did. But I hardly see it to be good moral and social stances for today's way of life.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 08:47
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
vid wrote:
Errrm, what was so wise from Jesus?

Only good thing I remember, pacifism (eg. "don't fight back"), seems to be logical behavior for initially extremely small paulinic offshott from very small christianity cult.
I suppose that love to every living being could be "borrowed" from Buddhism or Jainism (these times not only goods and people but also ideas were transferred along the Silk Road).
'Main points in Jainism' wrote:
# Every living being has a soul
# Every soul is potentially divine and has the innate qualities of infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite power, and infinite bliss.
# Therefore, regard every living being as yourself and harm no one. In other words, have benevolence for all living beings.
Turning the other cheek is explained as response to an aggressor without violence, but I think it has another meaning: "If you were harmed by someone/something during your life, you shouldn't 'reproduce' your bad experiences and harm other innocent (human or animal) beings; hide your anger in the darkest corner of your heart."

If I remember correctly, in Judaism doesn't exist idea of "absolution" (every sin is noted in God's book and will be "considered" after human's death). Absolution was a novelty introduced by Jesus and gave power to the new religion.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 09:56
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
vid wrote:
...what was so wise from Jesus?
a. I referenced Jesus as one whose "teachings" have influenced, for better or worse, many people;
b. since none of those folks left behind written documents, we really don't know what they believed, nor what they taught. We only know what their students, and followers thought, often more than a hundred years later...
c. Paul: the more I read, the more convinced I am that this Greek Jew, who was not among Jesus' followers at the time of his murder, invented ideas quite alien to Jesus, a Jewish rabbi. In other words, I do not believe that Paul's ideas, which have dominated Christianity for nearly two millenia, represent the teachings of a first century devout Jewish rabbi. In particular, I doubt that Jesus would have agreed, as Paul had argued, to the idea that Jewish rituals could be violated, or at least ignored, in accord with desires of the pagan traditions of non-Hebreic tribes, eager to convert to Christianity. I believe we have, at least since the Council of Nicea, credited Jesus with Paul's ideas--in essence rewriting history to accommodate the huge reservoir of non-Hebreic merchants, tradesmen, and farmers, all of whom had plenty of money, and all of whom sought life after death, but none of whom was eager to undergo circumcision as a precondition to entering paradise. The huge success of Paul's approach, adapting Judaism to fit pagan traditions, does not, in my opinion, offer clarity on Jesus' teachings.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 10:29
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
MHajduk wrote:
If I remember correctly, in Judaism doesn't exist idea of "absolution" (every sin is noted in God's book and will be "considered" after human's death). Absolution was a novelty introduced by Jesus and gave power to the new religion.


I am not sure if I would take this as very good. Yes, it pushes people to some morality (if you sin, you will be punished after you die). But still there are few problems:
- Anyone who doesn't accept jesus is going to eternaly burn in lake of fire
- Thus anyone who doesn't do all that crazy stuff early christians did (throw away property, hate his own family) will be eternaly punished.
- Infinite punishment for finite sin

I'd say sin-punishment idea "is not bad", but not very good either.


also some historical POW:

I think this idea has Greek origin (neoplatonism) and predates hypothetical Jesus by few centuries. We know that Greeks influenced romans and judeans in BC times - check out Philo, whose teaching are suspiciously similar to Jesus-like mix of Judaism and Platonism, but he never references any Jesus for source of these ideas. Seems like modern Greek ideas were influencing Jews in time before Jesus, and his teaching were nothing revolutional or original.

Also note that all NT books that later made it into bible were apparently written in greek, most also in greek areas (authors are unfamilitiar with judea and galilea provinces, history, don't know jewish customs, ...), they use Septuagint (greek translation of OT books) not Hebrew scripture etc. This strongly hints against traditional notion that authors of these books were jewish followers of jesus - instead it hints for some helenised jews living in greece and rome.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 11:10
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Paul: the more I read, the more convinced I am that this Greek Jew, who was not among Jesus' followers at the time of his murder, invented ideas quite alien to Jesus, a Jewish rabbi


Now I'd suggest you to apply same criticism on Gospels - study something about "Synoptic problem", if you haven't already. After studying this topic, I concluded Paul is actually closer to historical Jesus, if there was one, than gospels are. Anyway, not much is left from Jesus, what we have is at best list of jesus sayings and some narratives mutated by at least 2 generations (and thus often contradictory). Much more likely, we are left just with partial list of jesus saying.

I suggest this article for study, it nicely collects all points. Note that it is written by christian scholar.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 11:15
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
Ok, regarding the 'writing' stuff.

What's so special about it? Do you think books can be any less faked than a speech?

Give me a good reason

and besides even if Socrates wasn't the one who said that, someone thought like that, and we know him/her by the name of Socrates. Doesn't matter. There is a difference between the value (person) and symbol (name). What we know is only the symbol
Post 30 Apr 2008, 11:53
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
Do you think books can be any less faked than a speech?

Not sure if you are refering to me here, if you are: Yes, book tend to get much less corrupted (modified, edited, rewritten) than some orally transmitted narrative. As usual, not a 100% rule, but works in vast majority of cases.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 11:59
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
I was talking to tom Wink

besides, why can it be less corrupted? Look, i can write whatever I want, and put Einstein's name on it Laughing (especially back then)
Post 30 Apr 2008, 12:09
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
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vid
I already explained this in very sentence you react to. Hope emphasis will hint you where:
Quote:
Look, i can write whatever I want, and put Einstein's name on it


It just doesn't happen as often with text, as it happens with oral narrative.
Post 30 Apr 2008, 12:33
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