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believe in Aliens??
yes, of course!
75%
 75%  [ 6 ]
i wait to see tham before to say yes
25%
 25%  [ 2 ]
no! we are the best creatures of the universe.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 8

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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
Can you prove that?

Nope, just common sense. People weren't so well fed back then, they had much harder time to survive than we have, there were no animal rights concepts (well, likely even "human rights" were very primitive), etc.

Why should hungry man whose live is daily endangered by animals care for it's life more than his own stomach?
Post 25 Apr 2008, 07:04
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17278
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
vid wrote:
People weren't so well fed back then, they had much harder time to survive than we have, there were no animal rights concepts
So can you prove that? You talk as though it is all factual and clearly proved.

I would imagine some people of that time were fed well and others not fed well depending upon where they lived. There were most likely many superstitions along with social customs and community hunting excursions that precluded random killing for no good reason (which is what you suggested the previous post).
Post 25 Apr 2008, 07:42
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Do you suggest that overall starvation and hunger is higher today than back then? Or that survival rate was higher back then?
Post 25 Apr 2008, 08:47
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17278
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
vid wrote:
Do you suggest that overall starvation and hunger is higher today than back then? Or that survival rate was higher back then?
Nope, all I'm saying is that we have no idea what life was like. Most probably some had it nice and easy and some had it hard, just like today. As for comparing ratios of the two ... well it would be hard to say. But either way, it goes nowhere towards supporting your statement that past humans killed just because they could.
Post 25 Apr 2008, 09:07
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
We have some clue what life looked like back then - we know enviroment and can deduce what was nescessary to survive, there are archaelogical traces, there are extant societies which never underwent neolithic revolution etc...

I deduced my statement from fact that many of those people HAD to kill animals all the time to survive - and we know they did from archaeology. Killing an animal would be quite hard for me, as I never did it. Those people did it very often, and it was associated with good feedback (getting fed, no more hungry). All these things, even though not a direct evidence, stronly suggest that such people were much more likely to kill an animal, than today human who can go buy some fake meat to KFC.
Post 25 Apr 2008, 09:28
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
revolution wrote:
Can you prove that?
i.e. vid's assertion that 12k years ago, humans killed many animals:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010608081621.htm
This article is flawed in two ways: 1. single authorship; 2. "modeling" rather than gathering DNA evidence, which is obviously more work.
Here's a contrarian view, one which I personally find both unattractive, and inadequate from a philosophical perspective, i.e. I doubt their interpretation of the data, in other words, I suspect that Homo is responsible for the disappearance of those mammals as well...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070607171134.htm
The interpretation these authors offer, to explain their data, "progressive loss of genetic diversity", as though this interpretation was at variance with deliberate destruction by homo, is rather superficial, in my opinion.
http://www.physorg.com/news100441913.html
Sometimes, as at present, regarding for example, the disappearance of song birds in North America, it is habitat destruction, rather than slaughter per se, that leads to loss of genetic diversity with concomitant inbreeding, and death of a species. Either way, it is homo's expansion which leads to death of other species.
Here is a summary of human migration patterns about the same time period, (i.e. 40-50k years ago,) as the disappearance of these mammalian species described in the article above.
http://www.mcn.org/2/noel/GeneticMigration.htm
Too many opinions, insufficient data, in my opinion. But, good reading, nevertheless. In summary, to answer revolution's question, NO. Not really, at least, not yet with conviction.
Smile
Post 25 Apr 2008, 09:32
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17278
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
@vid: So you are talking about personalised killing, as opposed to institutionalised killing. If so then for sure I agree that on a personal level an individual is more likely to have killed something, but does that mean that overall, as a population, more was killed just because they could.

Today, of course, we have abattoirs that do the bulk of the killing, so, on average, an individual is less likely to have killed something.

But we don't have any data on the customs of killing so long ago. As tom tobias mentions, there is not enough evidence to say anything about the amount of unnecessary killing (either a lot or a little) at that time.
Post 25 Apr 2008, 09:46
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victor



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 126
Location: Utopia
victor
Chill-kill-and-ill: some competing theories on the downfall of the mega beasts. Take a look at this. Smile
Post 25 Apr 2008, 09:50
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
WARNING to aliens: This is what happens when you meet the human race:

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

and we wonder why they don't contact us...

Please avoid the human race. It can kill; and actually it feels it's doing the "right" thing when it does. They are all Nazis against other species! They (actually those in power) place emphasis more on their own self-importance and never think about morals, especially for other species (did Nazis think so about Jews?). This is what they do for the so-called progress -- but then, it's their own selfish progress.

meh the individual can't do shit compared to the 'apes in power' (oops, sorry, apes don't have virus thoughts, so the example doesn't hold). Even their common sense is not based on morals anymore
Post 25 Apr 2008, 11:45
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
The_Grey_Beast:

Crying or Very sad true.

and here, the problem is the money. all have a cost, the respect have a cost.

and i'll stopt to eat meat now, my eyes are opened. eggs and vegetables are enough.
meat is muscle. nobody want to become an hamberger.
Post 25 Apr 2008, 12:27
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