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vid
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vid
Right now I am not in mood to argue too much.

My POW is that if jesus says
Quote:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
then he means what he said. Especially if it fits withing historical context.

Of course, every passage can be taken metaforically and reinterpreted to fit into more humane context. Nice example of how to change meaning of passage is following:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesussayshate.html

As long as you are willing to stretch meaning of every passage, there is nothing solid to discuss about. Sure, if you try hard enough, then there are no demons, pagan gods, unicorns, giants, basilisks, phoenixes, griffins, dragons, or leviathans in Bible...
Post 05 May 2008, 18:35
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
vid, Jesus can say "love" a million times and the skeptic ignores it. But when he says "hate", it automatically makes Him guilty of unimaginable evil? Don't actions speak louder than words? Sorry if I think any "hatred" of Jesus (in any sense) is pure folly and based upon no practical or ideological wisdom!

"Love the Lord God, love your neighbor, love your enemies, and husbands: love your wives".

It gets old saying it over and over again, and I know I've explained this to you (vid) at least twice. So whatever, keep ignoring it if you want.
Post 06 May 2008, 02:33
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
vid, Jesus can say "love" a million times and the skeptic ignores it. But when he says "hate", it automatically makes Him guilty of unimaginable evil? Don't actions speak louder than words? Sorry if I think any "hatred" of Jesus (in any sense) is pure folly and based upon no practical or ideological wisdom!


If you didn't miss it, I acknowledged that Jesus teaching was quite good, no hatred. I just said it is inferior to contemporary greek philosophies, because of those few bad things like talking people into nomadic preaching way of life, and dismissing "worldly" things as bad.

By the way, you do exactly same thing you criticize me for, with old testament. Yahweh of old testament is mostly cruel, asking people to be afraid of him, kills people for no good reason (like for pissing on wall), causes unnescessary trouble to his own "chosen" people (hardedning pharaoh heart), demands ritual animal sacriface, demands man to chop their foreskins, etc. All these are easily ignored by christians, and they just focus on those few things still acceptable even today.

... Yahweh says and shows he is cruel jealous god million times, and you ignore it. He says he is loving god once, and you keep holding on it, dismissing all his mass murders and commands to mass murder...
Post 06 May 2008, 11:01
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
rugxulo wrote:
Yeah, but you don't see me wasting my time making insulting comics and annoying "Evolve" t-shirts just to annoy a whole group of people. (Yeah, maybe they think it's funny, but it's just kinda dumb. You can be funny without being insulting.)
Seems to me the same thing with "Jesus is Lord" (and similar variants) t-shirts. Each person will have their own perspective on things.
Post 06 May 2008, 23:00
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
Seems to me the same thing with "Jesus is Lord" (and similar variants) t-shirts. Each person will have their own perspective on things.
Maybe, but you forgot one thing though, atheists are usually the ones who claim that they do not want to "spread" their religion and blame the theists (in fact they don't acknowledge that they have a religion, which actually is founded by pretty strong beliefs; please make difference between atheists and agnostics, for one).

Not good to blame others for something you do yourself as well.
Post 08 May 2008, 11:13
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vid
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vid
"atheism" literaly means "lack of religion", your tries to equate religion with atheistic worldview is silly.

Atheism is based on same "beliefs" that cause you not to bother about fairies and invisible pink unicorns. Existence of god (theism) simply haven't been demonstrated, just like existence of fairies, so we atheists don't see any reason to consider this particular claim any more than all other undemonstrated claims. On contrary, existence of gravity or quantum entanglement has been demonstrated, so we regard it higher.

If you can provide better model (correctly predicts wider range of events) for reality than current one, and it involves god (in some way that i can't really imagine, but well...), I would accept it .Right now best model for reality that we have doesn't need to presuppose any god, nor would doing so make model any better.
Post 08 May 2008, 11:30
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Actually it won't usually be an atheist that will be offended by a "Jesus is Lord" t-shirt, it would be more likely to be a non-Jesus based religion follower that can take offence.

I wasn't trying to blame anyone for anything, just pointing out that different points of view can view the same things in opposite ways.
Post 08 May 2008, 11:45
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Nono, herein lies the problem. When you make, let's say, 'ads' for that (e.g t-shirts), you make it because you believe what you write there to be true (or the one who made it). It's not a lack of belief. Maybe in God, it is, of course. But if you just "didn't" believe in anything (let's say that gravity is not a belief), you wouldn't do it. Point is, you do believe in the fact that you are right, for starters. And then that believing in God is an irrational thing, because you apply your logic of induction everywhere -- that is also a belief. I'm sure the list would go on and on.

Also it's an entirely different thing because the "Love Jesus" (or whatever was in the example) t-shirts are not targeted at any belief -- they are not pointing the message to a particular group of people, wheras when you say "something is crap", it means you're targeting it at the 'something', i.e being "pointed" to that.

It's an entirely different thing to write: "I like apples" on a t-shirt and "John sucks" Wink
Post 08 May 2008, 11:45
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
"Love Jesus" & "Jesus is Lord" are not the same message. The latter is clearly stating something about which belief system is (what the wearer considers) the proper one.
Post 08 May 2008, 12:03
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Jesus is Lord

As Lord is usual translation of YHWH (god's name in bible), I think statement is encomplete according to Nicean trinitarian creed (the one that was brutally enforced on roman empire after 4th century). For proper catholic christians (protestant too, AFAIK they follow Nicean creed too), it should read "Jesus is Lord is Holy Spirit".

Anyway, I plan to make shirt few bible quotes regarding alcohol consumption on back. Wonder if Bible citations would offend fellow christians :]

Judges 9:13 wrote:
"Wine cheereth God and man."


Isaiah 5:22 wrote:
Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine And valiant men in mixing strong drink,


Jeremiah 25:27 wrote:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more


(note that this is not intended as anti-christian, but rather as pro-alcoholic, supported by selective funny bible quotes)
Post 08 May 2008, 12:40
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
chinese said, life is
- wearing nice clothes
- eating good food
- living in a peace nice place
- travel using comfortable vehicles.

衣食住行

then help others, build school, hospital, R&D center, factory so that others could help, set up court so that any disputes can be solve, build satellite, travel to mars, jupiter, other world, learn more knowledge.

think postive, dont' despair and always hope, understand 知足常乐 ("There" is no better than "Here")
Post 12 May 2008, 17:21
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
then help others, build school, hospital, R&D center, factory so that others could help, set up court so that any disputes can be solve, build satellite, travel to mars, jupiter, other world, learn more knowledge.

Exactly - i wouldn't expect you to put it up in such nice way. Very nicely expressed!

Expressing this in epicurean retorics: "Try to make other people's life better, so they will also make your life better". Bringing this back to previous topic, you unfortunately won't find this written in bible clearly.
Post 12 May 2008, 20:28
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
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edfed
life is something like that

lol
Post 14 May 2008, 00:52
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Quote:

... Yahweh says and shows he is cruel jealous god million times, and you ignore it. He says he is loving god once, and you keep holding on it, dismissing all his mass murders and commands to mass murder...


It's hard to call a guy unjust when you don't believe in him. So why do you? (And obviously, God the "Father of Life" controls how long we live based upon His own free will. Life is a gift, not a right. Ever heard of capital punishment? Some offenses really do deserve death [apparently].)

Quote:

Anyway, I plan to make shirt few bible quotes regarding alcohol consumption on back.


http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html
http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrdrink.html

Note that I haven't actually read these, but just giving you some opinions. (I myself don't drink, but I've never heard it forbidden; however, moderation is strongly encouraged.)

Quote:

Expressing this in epicurean retorics: "Try to make other people's life better, so they will also make your life better". Bringing this back to previous topic, you unfortunately won't find this written in bible clearly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes
Post 24 May 2008, 21:55
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vid
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vid
Quote:
It's hard to call a guy unjust when you don't believe in him. So why do you? (And obviously, God the "Father of Life" controls how long we live based upon His own free will. Life is a gift, not a right. Ever heard of capital punishment? Some offenses really do deserve death [apparently].)

I comment on Yahweh as character of some books that were in 4th century compiled into what we now call Bible, plus few extra books not in catholic version of Bible. Same way I would say that Harry Potter was pretty gay, or that Prometeus really loved mankind. Whether Yahweh, Harry Potter, or Prometeus are real or not, doesn't change in any way that their personality is described in literature.

Quote:
Note that I haven't actually read these, but just giving you some opinions. (I myself don't drink, but I've never heard it forbidden; however, moderation is strongly encouraged.)

Thanks for link, I am already acquainted with range of christian ideas about not/drinking. Bible praises alcohol as things "that makes heart happy" (even Yahweh is claimed to be made happy by wine Wink ), but it also condemns getting drunk. IMO in this topic, bible is in line with experiments with drinking alcohol, that showed moderate drinking is healthier than no drinking at all.

Quote:
Quote:
Expressing this in epicurean retorics: "Try to make other people's life better, so they will also make your life better". Bringing this back to previous topic, you unfortunately won't find this written in bible clearly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

I don't see it there. What I see is talking people into early christian lifestyle (no family bounds, no property, no interest in "worldly" things, spreading the religion) under promise that they will be compensated in afterlife. Closest match is "Blessed are the merciful [οι έλεήμονες]: for they shall obtain mercy.". But this "they will obtain mercy", like rest of other "beatitudes", likely refers to mercy in afterlife, not during worldly life. And even if it refers to "worldly" mercy, that hardly outweights all other rationlizing morality by *fear* of Yahweh's punishment, both in OT and NT. In OT it's more in style "Yahweh will kick your ass some nasty way", and in NT "end of world will come soon, angels will come, and throw all who didn't heed my words to Hades".
Post 24 May 2008, 22:58
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
And even if it refers to "worldly" mercy, that hardly outweights all other rationlizing morality by *fear* of Yahweh's punishment, both in OT and NT. In OT it's more in style "Yahweh will kick your ass some nasty way", and in NT "end of world will come soon, angels will come, and throw all who didn't heed my words to Hades".
I'll not be talking about religion (Wink), but about what being 'good' means.

Good, by definition, means that you need to take your actions, without a constraint on ANY KIND of reward. If you DO the charity action BECAUSE you get the reward, that, by definition, will make you not 'good'. So by that REAL definition of it, 90% of the people on this world are not good Wink

To be good means, to do an action, without thinking about the reward. If you are rewarded afterwards, it is fine.. however the point is, YOU MUST NOT do something BECAUSE of the reward. If you get the reward and you did not do it because of it, then it's ok and you are good. (by definition).

so if, out of fear, you do good because you expect a reward (i.e no-punishment suffices), then you are not good by definition. It's a hard logic to understand but I hope you get what I mean Wink

EDIT: To put it different, the "reward" must not be the driving force that will make you do your charity work. It may come afterwards, but it must not be the force that makes you do it.

(i.e even without a reward, you must still do it, no matter whether you deserve the reward or not).

you may call it foolish, but it's the definition of being 'good'.

As a sidenote, to accept Jesus as your savior means, not to 'bow' to his supreme power, but to request help from him, because admitting your weakness is the first step in being a better and more mature person (i.e not proud of your uber-self-powers).
Post 27 May 2008, 10:52
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MHajduk



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MHajduk
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
To be good means, to do an action, without thinking about the reward.
It's the first time, when I can honestly say that I agree with you 100%. Very Happy

Where "to do an action" should be mean as "to help others to survive, to make others' life better, easier" etc.
Post 27 May 2008, 14:39
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vid
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vid
Grey Beast: Do you consider nice feeling after doing a good deed a reward? Because I do, and because of that I don't agree with you.
Post 27 May 2008, 14:50
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MHajduk



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MHajduk
vid wrote:
Grey Beast: Do you consider nice feeling after doing a good deed a reward? Because I do, and because of that I don't agree with you.
Nice feeling as a reward?

Making good is rather question of internal compulsion (things which should be done in a particular moment) in my opinion and sometimes it's not "pleasant" for benefactor.
Post 27 May 2008, 15:33
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vid
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vid
If we want to push it far, then purely materialistic morale, as evidenced by behavior of many "good" people, can be modelled by Theory of games. Decision which seems best for individual in isolated environment is no longer best chance, if you consider also what are others likely to do.

It's pretty hard to explain, so I will again fall back to my source of this view on morality: http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html

IMHO much better thank religious blackmail style "if you won't be moral, you'll get it badly in afterlife!"
Post 27 May 2008, 20:31
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