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victor



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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victor
sleepsleep wrote:
Quote:
understand that life is nothing more than a system of complicated biochemical processes which are full of bugs!
how about the self recover mechanism inside our body?
Take blood clotting as an example. There are a lot of well-known bugs. Refer to this. Wink
Post 15 Apr 2008, 01:57
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
Life is life.

Get it?
Post 16 Apr 2008, 12:41
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Get it?

Yeah, tautology. True, but not very helpful or informative (except for similar-named Opus song)
Post 16 Apr 2008, 13:13
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
life....
what if, the purpose of life already been given to us? just we don't know, but it is there already?

- conquer the whole world (like those past people did?)
- beyond death before die?
Post 01 May 2008, 12:50
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vid
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vid
What if purpose of life is to live without seeking it's purpose, and those who seek purpose of life would be eternally punished?

I don't see any point in quessing, and also current life on earth seems just same as if it would be naturally evolved, without any purpose.
Post 01 May 2008, 16:56
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asmrox



Joined: 19 Jan 2008
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asmrox
Quote:
yeah, i am living now, but why i am here?

u sure u are?
are you sure your more than bilions of molecules interacting each other?
you think thers something more than space and anti-space (matter, nrgy, etc)?
you ask 'why', but why? You need to get answer to gain profits from it, knowleadge and power. Why? to be better, strongest survive.

I thing thers no existance like many ppl think, we are nothing other than simple galaxy or microbe.

my english sux, i know.
Post 01 May 2008, 17:53
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
I don't see any point in quessing, and also current life on earth seems just same as if it would be naturally evolved, without any purpose.
Are you sure current life (even animals) has no purpose? Maybe we don't know it yet Wink
Post 01 May 2008, 18:25
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vid
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vid
Didn't say I am sure. I just said that life looks suspiciously same as it would if it didn't have a purpose.
Post 02 May 2008, 08:06
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:
Didn't say I am sure. I just said that life looks suspiciously same as it would if it didn't have a purpose.


Sorry, but to any active Christian, that would be an impossibility. When God shows Himself, you can't deny anymore (unless you seriously offend your own faith). Sad that the world is so easily fooled against Him.
Post 03 May 2008, 07:27
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vid
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vid
Quote:
When God shows Himself

God... You mean Alah, right? Or Yahweh? Zeus?

I agree that if there indeed is some God, than most of world is fooled against him. But that's no wonder, if one of all those hundreds of gods is real, he did very little for us to let us see which. At least for me, I don't see criterium to favor any of those. Just the fact that my parents raise me under some faith isn't very persuasive.

Matthew 7:14 wrote:
Because straith is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT
Post 03 May 2008, 08:50
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
God... You mean Alah, right? Or Yahweh? Zeus?
Does it matter what we name? Why is the symbol so important? We can name "asm" for all I care. Wink

vid wrote:
I agree that if there indeed is some God, than most of world is fooled against him. But that's no wonder, if one of all those hundreds of gods is real, he did very little for us to let us see which.
There are always errors, and we have different versions of many old kings (if you take all sources into consideration of course), etc.. That does not mean that there were many of them, and actually, you can find the true one (since no text is usually 'false', but complement each other).

vid wrote:
At least for me, I don't see criterium to favor any of those. Just the fact that my parents raise me under some faith isn't very persuasive.
God did send Jesus once, and you know what happened. I guess we should have learned by then, but most people forgot him and now want 'evidence' -- that's what people before Jesus wanted as well. How many times will people want that? Infinitely. Such is human nature.

Yes of course it might not be persuasive. I'm not too fond of organized religions either, but I respect Jesus (or whatever he was, even if he was not a divine person, remember I don't care if his name was different, the symbol is not important). For me it is enough so-called proof inside my feelings Smile
Post 03 May 2008, 09:19
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Does it matter what we name?

It matters if you want also some scripture, which one to pick? They are pretty different in sme manner.

Quote:
since no text is usually 'false', but complement each other

No way, even books of christian bible contradict themselves, not speaking about comparison between scriptures of various religion. This "new age" try to unify old religions into something new (something very close to deism) is understandable (that's what has been happening all the time anyway), but doesn't make too much sense. You have to omit lot of material to create some harmony between various scriptures.

Quote:
but I respect Jesus

Sorry for offtopicking, but what do you respect him for? Let's suppose this guy really existed, wasn't conflation of older helenistic ideas. Moreover, let's suppose that his message is properly recorded in gospels (if not, we have nothing left about him). Then, what was so great about his message? In what was his teaching better, than, let's say Epicureanism, or any other helenistic teaching of the time?
Post 03 May 2008, 10:27
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
It matters if you want also some scripture, which one to pick? They are pretty different in sme manner.
Well, it's difficult, sometimes like picking which of the texts are not corrupted (in historical facts, etc). Most probably all of them were 'adjusted' along the way (translations, etc.)

vid wrote:
No way, even books of christian bible contradict themselves, not speaking about comparison between scriptures of various religion. This "new age" try to unify old religions into something new (something very close to deism) is understandable (that's what has been happening all the time anyway), but doesn't make too much sense. You have to omit lot of material to create some harmony between various scriptures.
Of course just as many historical records are 'corrupted' while others aren't, it's hard to know what the true 'interpretation' is, because translation and power always corrupt subjectively Wink

vid wrote:
Sorry for offtopicking, but what do you respect him for? Let's suppose this guy really existed, wasn't conflation of older helenistic ideas. Moreover, let's suppose that his message is properly recorded in gospels (if not, we have nothing left about him). Then, what was so great about his message? In what was his teaching better, than, let's say Epicureanism, or any other helenistic teaching of the time?
Well he sacrificed himself. I don't know much about the helenistic teaching, but I doubt they did that Wink
Post 03 May 2008, 10:35
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vid
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vid
Quote:
Well, it's difficult, sometimes like picking which of the texts are not corrupted (in historical facts, etc). Most probably all of them were 'adjusted' along the way (translations, etc.)

But do you suppose that some of original texts were somehow specially connected with this omni[everything] god?

Quote:
Well he sacrificed himself. I don't know much about the helenistic teaching, but I doubt they did that

What did he sacriface for? To change his own rules ("new covenant") for us? http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/so-simple.html

Also other things:
- Jesus tells us to live our life being good people and worshipping him, in fear of eternal punishment. Epicureans tell us to live enjoyable life, and also be good to others so others are good to us.

- Jesus tells us to hate our own family, otherwise we suffer eternal punishment.

- Jesus tells us that eunuchs (no sex, no family) is better than common people. Body lusts are bad in bible. Epicureans tells us that it's fine to have sex for pleasure (not too much), and that it isn't good for philosophers to have wife.

- Jesus condemns "worldly wisdom" (and praises "heavenly wisdom"). There are passages in bible that say something in manner that more "worldly wisdom" you have, the worse you are - eg. stay uneducated. Greeks had every schooled person to learn retorics - way how to properly reason with other. They were teached all philosophies, and choose one. When christians came to power, they (following bible) imposed totalitarian regime with only their ideology allowed and everything else was outlawed.

- Jesus tells us to give away all our possesions. Epicureans teach us that possesions are of no importance by themselves, but we should have what we need to survive properly and to educate ourselves.

- Jesus tells us that after death, we will be judged, and most people will go for eternal punishment to lake of fire. Epicureans teach us that after death we loose all our sensory and consciousness, so there is nothing to fear about death.

Sorry, but teachings of Jesus are far from respectable. Sacrifacing self for others is good, but in case of Jesus it is quite pointless. More than half of Jesus teachings are IMO inferior to contemporary greek teachings.

By the way, as for sacrifacing himself for humans in greek mythology, I'll refer Russel's Teapot again: http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/martyr-con-07.html
Post 03 May 2008, 14:06
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
rugxulo wrote:
...When God shows Himself, ...
not herself? itself? Why bother with gender for a supernatural omnipotent force? Why insist on applying anthropomorphic features for a "god"? What need would a supernatural power have of a "child"? Or the "sacrifice" of 'his' child? Humans, on the other hand, NEED an explanation of the physical world--?sound in a vacuum?, or, how to generate electricity in outer space and pipe it to planet earth? Questions many, but answers few. So, some folks give them answers, and call it truth, and it becomes a religion. And then, we kill each other, insisting that our lies, deceptions, and frauds are more accurate than someone else's lies, deceptions, and frauds.
There is no god. All religions are a con game. ("con game" = swindle)
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
...God did send Jesus once, and you know what happened. ...
Yes, you are right, of course. I surely do know, exactly what happened, and why, because it is written right here in the "bible", and reaffirmed in the Quran, and in several other books, lots of books. Good reliable sources, all of them. Fortunately, very wise, benevolent, kind hearted men DESTROYED any conflicting versions.

I surely do not believe that "god" sent jesus or anyone else. I have no idea whether jesus proclaimed himself "king of the jews" in defiance of Roman law, and was therefore denounced by Judas IN ORDER TO FULFILL his (i.e. Jesus') goal of self sacrifice, i.e. Judas as the ONLY true disciple, as yet another recently discovered old book, the Gospel of Judas, Coptic translation from the original Greek, suggests.
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Gospel-Judas-Iscariot-Betrayer/dp/0195314603
I have absolutely no idea what Jesus taught or believed. I don't even know for sure whether or not he was a descendant of King David. I am unsure of his parentage. I don't have any DNA.
I believe in DNA. That is something I know. God, gods, and other supernatural beings, I know not.
Post 03 May 2008, 21:15
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victor



Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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victor
tom tobias wrote:
There is no god. All religions are a con game. ("con game" = swindle)
Brilliantly said! Professor tobias is my hero! Razz

A con game = A confidence game = A swindle in which someone cheats at gambling or persuades others to buy worthless stuffs Twisted Evil
Post 04 May 2008, 09:00
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
What did he sacriface for? To change his own rules ("new covenant") for us? http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/so-simple.html
Remember though that he did not ask to be sacrificed.

vid wrote:
- Jesus tells us to live our life being good people and worshipping him, in fear of eternal punishment. Epicureans tell us to live enjoyable life, and also be good to others so others are good to us.
You've got very weird version of Jesus and interpreting his teachings. Being 'Good' automatically implies that you do not seek any kind of reward. Thus it means that you are not doing good because you are "afraid of evil" (i.e reward = gets rid of punishment).

If you are afraid of evil, and it is that reason that makes you do good, you will not be called 'good' because, by the very definition of it, for something to be good it must be done without any rewards in mind. Good is made by heart, not by rewards.

Therefore, the thing with the punishment is completely out of the focus for 'good'. There are a lot of interpretations available, remember most are metaphors.

vid wrote:
- Jesus tells us that eunuchs (no sex, no family) is better than common people.
He's right, and please replace common people with primitive people, because these instincts are primitive. Who cares they are "hard-wired"? If we can resist them, then we are better and less primitive.

We don't improve by doing what temptations we are offered (i.e improvement doesn't come by itself). It comes through resistance and a change of mentality (other than primitive).

vid wrote:
- Jesus tells us to give away all our possesions. Epicureans teach us that possesions are of no importance by themselves, but we should have what we need to survive properly and to educate ourselves.
What's wrong with what Jesus said here? It will make you a different person, outstanding from the natural crowd that will eventually take you as a model. Wink

vid wrote:
- Jesus tells us that after death, we will be judged, and most people will go for eternal punishment to lake of fire. Epicureans teach us that after death we loose all our sensory and consciousness, so there is nothing to fear about death.
Jesus believed in God, but what's this got to do with anything?

tom tobias wrote:
rugxulo wrote:
...When God shows Himself, ...
not herself? itself? Why bother with gender for a supernatural omnipotent force? Why insist on applying anthropomorphic features for a "god"?
Please, this argument is getting childish and is completely out of topic. Rolling Eyes

tom tobias wrote:
What need would a supernatural power have of a "child"? Or the "sacrifice" of 'his' child?
Why do you ask something which you'll never want to acknowledge?

Some atheists (not agnostics) are very close-minded. It is impossible to prove anything that they don't want to hear about. Any kind of possible sign (i said possible) will result in trying different explanations, because no matter what, they will either dismiss it as illusions, or that some aliens used unknown laws of physics (yet) and pulled a prank, etc.. in short, it's impossible to convince them (pretty much like some religious fanatics). They will never accept anything outside their belief system, and bury their heads into the sand, and try to explain it with something that resembles their belief. Does it sound too much like religious fanatics? I bet.

And next they'll start and reply with obvious childish remarks such as "If I become Superman, I'll believe in God", etc. etc. In short, you are asking to define God, that he gives you wishes, or does whatever you want, or thinks like you, etc. What makes you think you understand god? Or what makes you think he will do 'you' (especially you) a wish so you could believe in him?

For Christ's sake, just think of a father and a 5-year-old kid, and the kind of atheists I was discussing about act like the kid in front of the parent (God). So know maybe you see why they're called childish.

(of course I said some atheists, some are more open-minded than that).

tom tobias wrote:
Humans, on the other hand, NEED an explanation of the physical world--?
You mean, an explanation that fits with their beliefs Wink

(logic of induction, belief in their rational mind (that it is rational), belief in their logic, etc).

tom tobias wrote:
sound in a vacuum?, or, how to generate electricity in outer space and pipe it to planet earth? Questions many, but answers few. So, some folks give them answers, and call it truth, and it becomes a religion. And then, we kill each other, insisting that our lies, deceptions, and frauds are more accurate than someone else's lies, deceptions, and frauds.
If you read about the conspiracies you'll know that it is not only in religions, but in science & politics as well. I guess it's just human nature.


tom tobias wrote:
Yes, you are right, of course. I surely do know, exactly what happened, and why, because it is written right here in the "bible", and reaffirmed in the Quran, and in several other books, lots of books. Good reliable sources, all of them.
I assume you're being sarcastic, and in that point, you see you have certain beliefs like I said above. Because no doubt you believe in all the archaeological or historical so-called 'facts' but yet you don't believe in other documents (e.g bible).

Especially since you seem to be doing most of your arguments by backing them up with someone else's word (links to articles, etc) instead of providing arguments from your own thoughts.

tom tobias wrote:
I surely do not believe that "god" sent jesus or anyone else. I have no idea whether jesus proclaimed himself "king of the jews" in defiance of Roman law, and was therefore denounced by Judas IN ORDER TO FULFILL his (i.e. Jesus') goal of self sacrifice, i.e. Judas as the ONLY true disciple, as yet another recently discovered old book, the Gospel of Judas, Coptic translation from the original Greek, suggests.
For sure you pick which books/articles/historical facts to believe and which not, I doubt you have ever lived there to know for sure, but one thing is known, that you are a very picky person. And everything outside your scope of beliefs is almost immediately rejected (and some times even trying as hard as you can to find alternative explanations to dispute or falsify it).

tom tobias wrote:
I believe in DNA. That is something I know. God, gods, and other supernatural beings, I know not.
That's because you're trying to understand 'supernatural' beings with a wrong startpoint. You have a lot of beliefs (like i mentioned above, with logic of induction, etc), and you seem to apply these to 'supernatural' beings as well. Bad start.

You trust the DNA and the devices that analyze it and the scientists that built it and the scientists that used it, not to mention the articles/books found on the internet, more than something else (i.e 'supernatural' beings, so to speak, if you define 'natural' as being part of your beliefs, i.e material and 4D mathematically defined world). For me, faith is faith, whether in your eyes, your rational mind (e.g you assume that you are rational), a god, a device, a 4D mathematically-defined world, etc. The point is, you have beliefs and faiths in certain things -- that's fine because religious people have those too (in different things), it's just a different opinion.

Not fine with me, that leads to close-mindedness.
Post 04 May 2008, 12:55
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:


Also other things:
- Jesus tells us to live our life being good people and worshipping him, in fear of eternal punishment. Epicureans tell us to live enjoyable life, and also be good to others so others are good to us.


Which doesn't work, that's only doing it for selfish reasons (if even then). Pure enjoyment is not inherently good.

BTW, Jesus never said He wanted anyone to go to Hell. But you can't hate and disobey the one true God without being willingly separated from Him.

vid wrote:

- Jesus tells us to hate our own family, otherwise we suffer eternal punishment.


No, He only says that He is more important. Love of God (commandments 1-3) and love of neighbor (4-10, including "revere your parents") are inseparable. You can't willingly hate your parents and love God. If you pretend that, it explicitly says you are a liar, and God is not with you.

vid wrote:

- Jesus tells us that eunuchs (no sex, no family) is better than common people. Body lusts are bad in bible. Epicureans tells us that it's fine to have sex for pleasure (not too much), and that it isn't good for philosophers to have wife.


Jesus only says don't lust and don't commit adultery. Sex is fine in marriage. But don't let sex rule your thoughts, don't objectify women, etc. (We are not expected to be perfect but to try not to destroy ourselves 24/7.)

vid wrote:

- Jesus condemns "worldly wisdom" (and praises "heavenly wisdom"). There are passages in bible that say something in manner that more "worldly wisdom" you have, the worse you are - eg. stay uneducated.


No. He set up teachers (apostles) for the people, and it even says, "Don't scorn your doctor." In no way is it better to be uneducated. In fact, the conscience must be deliberately formed or it won't (fully) know good from bad and how to avoid evil. "The beginning of knowledge is fear of the Lord." Also, "Wisdom doesn't exist without knowledge", and "If you desire wisdom, keep the commandments and the Lord will bestow her upon you."

vid wrote:

Greeks had every schooled person to learn retorics - way how to properly reason with other. They were teached all philosophies, and choose one. When christians came to power, they (following bible) imposed totalitarian regime with only their ideology allowed and everything else was outlawed.


You are of course free to choose and act as you see fit. But some things must be explicitly outlawed because they are bad. Pure freedom doesn't mean letting people do whatever they want.

vid wrote:

- Jesus tells us to give away all our possesions. Epicureans teach us that possesions are of no importance by themselves, but we should have what we need to survive properly and to educate ourselves.


"Where your treasure is, there also your heart is." Also, see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Clearly, the rich man did not use his wealth for the benefit of the suffering on Earth. We are to use what we have for good, not endlessly hoarde riches (or misuse them to hurt others).

vid wrote:

- Jesus tells us that after death, we will be judged, and most people will go for eternal punishment to lake of fire. Epicureans teach us that after death we loose all our sensory and consciousness, so there is nothing to fear about death.


"Most people"? No. In fact, Jesus says all can be saved, but it's much harder for the rich man who doesn't want to give up his (unfair) advantage. So, it won't be easy, but indeed anyone can receive the grace to live in God's presense (or not, if they really disagree).

Epicureans don't know anything as they are only human and only claim human understanding. Jesus claimed to be God, so His claim is greater (and despite being hard to prove, it's actually harder to disprove). What did Epicureans ever do for the world? (Not much, at least not to my knowledge.)

vid wrote:

Sorry, but teachings of Jesus are far from respectable. Sacrifacing self for others is good, but in case of Jesus it is quite pointless. More than half of Jesus teachings are IMO inferior to contemporary greek teachings.


They are only inferior if they are false. If they are true (as I assent), then they trump any human teachings by far.

vid wrote:

By the way, as for sacrifacing himself for humans in greek mythology, I'll refer Russel's Teapot again: http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/martyr-con-07.html


Jesus suffered our sins because He is good yet we are fallen / selfish. In other words, He took the pain (via patience, perseverence) for the greater good, overlooking "small" faults for the "big" picture (eternal salvation) for the benefit of the people whom He created with that in mind in the first place. It's called "mercy" (not truly required, only done freely out of love). "It is good sense in a man to be slow to anger; it is his glory to overlook faults." (Or to quote Confucius, even: "A lack of forbearance spoils great plans.")

vid, not sure why you're so vehemently atheistic and against all this stuff. I keep forgetting that you're not just uninformed but truly biased. Oh well. Sad
Post 05 May 2008, 17:31
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Well I guess we are all biased in some way, some for and some against.
Post 05 May 2008, 17:36
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Yeah, but you don't see me wasting my time making insulting comics and annoying "Evolve" t-shirts just to annoy a whole group of people. (Yeah, maybe they think it's funny, but it's just kinda dumb. You can be funny without being insulting.)
Post 05 May 2008, 17:41
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