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AlexP



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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AlexP
This has been on my mind for a long time now, how everything that is is infinite. This has got me to thinking, how can you know the universe is infinite?

My approach: Don't think "how can it be infinite?", but merely think "How can it be finite?". How can you put a boundary on space and time, an infinitely exact cut-off point on all that is.

Even during a school day, I've had teachers ask me why I was staring off in space. It's just that thinking of concepts like this give a strange feeling to the conciousness, even called in one movie "Brain-gasms" Smile.

Any thoughts?
Post 23 Mar 2008, 03:05
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Who says the universe is infinite? Current best estimates suggest the viewable universe is ~13.7byo and the size of the entire universe ~78bly diameter.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 03:41
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
To define anything constrains the possiblities. It is important to remember that we typically define things with a functional intention - we have already answered the "why?" and are in search of constraints to narrow our thinking. To say there is a universe has already gone too far down the road of constraints and left reality for the sake of discussion or discovery!

It was known thousands of years ago that reality is unspeakable. We are merely trying to get a consise model of what we know and by definition that is bounded and not a model of actual reality. From the functional perspective we do not need a model of actual reality - only good enough to be correct within our space-time envelope is required to be correct for us.

Brain fucks are good, but the other fucks are better. Very Happy

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Post 23 Mar 2008, 05:31
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
bitRAKE wrote:
Brain fucks are good, but the other fucks are better.
There is nothing so overrated as bad sex and nothing so underrated as a good shit.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 05:55
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
Who says the universe is infinite? Current best estimates suggest the viewable universe is ~13.7byo and the size of the entire universe ~78bly diameter.
How can you (or they) possibly know?

If you give me the size of the Universe, you'll also have to tell me what's beyond the boundaries (or what happens at the boundaries). If you don't know, then you can't know if there are even boundaries at all -- since you first have to define something (whatever that definition is) in order to acknowledge it's existence.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 12:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
revolution wrote:
Who says the universe is infinite? Current best estimates suggest the viewable universe is ~13.7byo and the size of the entire universe ~78bly diameter.
How can you (or they) possibly know?
Well of course we don't know, it is only an estimate. If you want you can come up with a different figure but if you look at the evidence and data I suspect you might also come up with the same figure unless you happen to use some radical idea of a different type of universe than the current leading theories suggest.
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
If you give me the size of the Universe, you'll also have to tell me what's beyond the boundaries (or what happens at the boundaries). If you don't know, then you can't know if there are even boundaries at all -- since you first have to define something (whatever that definition is) in order to acknowledge it's existence.
Yes, the philosophical problems like this are always an interesting thought process. "What is beyond the boundaries?" is usually the first Q asked by people when told there may be actual limits to the universe. And of course once again no one knows, but we can speculate. Some choose the religious explanations. Some choose to say things like "it makes no sense to ask since we can never go outside the boundary". Some just say "I don't know".

Edit: check out Olbers' Paradox (google for it), it pretty much discredits the possibility of an infinite universe.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 13:04
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
Well of course we don't know, it is only an estimate. If you want you can come up with a different figure but if you look at the evidence and data I suspect you might also come up with the same figure unless you happen to use some radical idea of a different type of universe than the current leading theories suggest.
Huh? It is not even observable -- you extrapolate an answer. But who said the belief in this logic of induction is true?

revolution wrote:
Yes, the philosophical problems like this are always an interesting thought process. "What is beyond the boundaries?" is usually the first Q asked by people when told there may be actual limits to the universe. And of course once again no one knows, but we can speculate. Some choose the religious explanations. Some choose to say things like "it makes no sense to ask since we can never go outside the boundary". Some just say "I don't know".
Well, it goes like this. If you say the Universe is finite, you also have to tell me what happens at the boundaries. Because otherwise your statement is unsupported. It's like I can say that electricity is some kind of alien intervention (and supports all experiments), but then I'll have to define this alien intervention somehow, or otherwise my statement is simply useless. So what if it's an alien intervention as long as I do not know anything about the alien -- in fact, how do I know it's even an alien and not a banana?
Post 23 Mar 2008, 13:12
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
Huh? It is not even observable -- you extrapolate an answer. But who said the belief in this logic of induction is true?
Sure, we HAVE to extrapolate, we can't fly there in space ships!
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
Well, it goes like this. If you say the Universe is finite, you also have to tell me what happens at the boundaries. Because otherwise your statement is unsupported.
Not quite, there are many other ways to show the finite universe without having to explain the boundaries. I edited my post above, but I'll repeat here just in case you missed it, check out Olbers' Paradox about what we would expect to see if the universe were infinite.
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
It's like I can say that electricity is some kind of alien intervention (and supports all experiments), but then I'll have to define this alien intervention somehow, or otherwise my statement is simply useless. So what if it's an alien intervention as long as I do not know anything about the alien -- in fact, how do I know it's even an alien and not a banana?
You might like to apply the Occam's Razor argument to your logic there.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 13:24
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
You might like to apply the Occam's Razor argument to your logic there.
Uhm, I don't have that "Bible" and neither the 'simplicity' commandment. Razz
Post 23 Mar 2008, 13:38
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
My approach: Don't think "how can it be infinite?", but merely think "How can it be finite?".

oxymonorons ain't gonna help you...
Post 23 Mar 2008, 14:17
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asmhack



Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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asmhack
maybe the universe is like a sphere ?? so by this way it is 'infinite' ? something like earth.. ?? Confused
Post 23 Mar 2008, 16:05
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AlexP



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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AlexP
Okay, there seems to be some misconception here. By the Universe being infinite, even 18th century theorists assume I mean stars and planets. I meant the infinitivity (lol?) of space and time itself, not the matter that the space may hold.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 17:19
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
AlexP wrote:
Okay, there seems to be some misconception here. By the Universe being infinite, even 18th century theorists assume I mean stars and planets. I meant the infinitivity (lol?) of space and time itself, not the matter that the space may hold.
Are you suggesting that space, time and the universe are separate things? Most experts say that they are all interrelated and you can't simply talk about one without also implying the others.
Post 23 Mar 2008, 17:38
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i believe some day, we all could transport from 1 location to another beyond speed of light.

and since universe keep expanding, (like the gmail email space offering) http://www.gmail.com. What beyond the space before universe expanded is out of imagination. ("nothingness" is so hard to understand & imagine)

even our own little body, (what inside it) how far we could break those atom, subatom and etc into sub sub sub atom and etc)
Post 23 Mar 2008, 17:39
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AlexP



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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AlexP
last I checked, the fastest speed possible is the speed of light in a vacuum (source = Einstein)
Post 23 Mar 2008, 20:11
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