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tom tobias



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tom tobias
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/02/20/catholic.conflict.ap/index.html
Problem is that the quasi secular holiday, St. Patrick's Day, occurs each year on 17 March, a date assigned by the Solar Calendar, while, Easter, a week long Christian religious festival clebrating the murder of Jesus of Nazareth by his fellow Jews, occurs on a different date each year, following the lunar calendar, as assigned by Lord Constantine in 325 (i.e. Council of Nicea).
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/easter.htm
This date closely accords with the Jewish festival of Passover, though some scholars wonder how Jesus or anyone else could have been executed on a Jewish religious festival date.
http://www.history.com/minisites/halloween/viewPage?pageId=684
What is most interesting to me, apart from the religous historical debate, is the impact that THIS year's celebrations have on local communities. In USA, in many communities, attention is focused not on the illegal war against the people of Iraq, or the mountains of debt incurred to pay for the illegal war, or the ever increasing pollution, world wide. No, Boston and New York and MANY other communities are ARGUING about WHEN to schedule the annual St. Patrick's day parades, with the Catholic Church vigorously opposing 17 March, because the 16 March, THIS YEAR, for the first time in CENTURIES, is "Palm Sunday", i.e. the first day of the Easter season. Wow. So, the solar calendar devotees, like me, who are secularists ("blasphemers"), opposed to Churches' interference in domestic affairs, argue that the date of the parade ought to remain as it always has been, 17 March, date of Patrick's death in Ireland.
http://www.saint-patrick.com/page3.htm
We cannot escape the tyranny of religious superstition.
We remain undeserving of the accolade sapiens.
Confused
Post 21 Feb 2008, 10:13
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
clebrating the murder of Jesus of Nazareth by his fellow Jews

Laughing

Quote:
as assigned by Lord Constantine in 325 (i.e. Council of Nicea).

i challenge this claim: can you find me some historical data about council of nicea which says this? or, what was your source for this claim?

regarding topic.... sometimes i am pretty happy i don't live there. founding fathers would cry if they saw how their "secular state" idea ended up...
Post 21 Feb 2008, 20:45
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The solar calendar is really only needed for agricultural reasons. It is quite an arbitrary length of time anyway. And it continuously changes at a gradual rate.

The lunar calendar is of no practical use except where there is no artificial lighting or for tide monitoring. The light from the moon is weak but is still useful in some situations. It also continuously changes.

As to how those two relate, well they don't, they are in no way related to each other, they change at different rates and have different affects. Occasionally there will be a coincidence where two events happen together, it is to be expected, But it has no real significance except in the minds of some humans.
Post 22 Feb 2008, 06:13
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vid
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tom: little help for my challenge, here's list of historical accounts about council of nicea:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

as for your claims that bible was compiled in nicea, here is a great article which collects what we know about the real history of catholic bible:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
Post 22 Feb 2008, 13:06
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
Thank you vid, for the EXCELLENT reference, a very good web site, indeed, however, it was last updated in 2003, hence is a bit out of date, though we are describing events of almost two millenia ago, so a few years here or there....But, Ehrman's books date from 2004.... My information was based on reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203719207&sr=8-4
The author, Bart Ehrman, has written several other books, also quite interesting, I am reading one now, just started, called, "The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot", 2006, Oxford University Press, but he has introduced many other interesting titles:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-3852377-7466068?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ehrman
He is a professor at University of North Carolina:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman
At that excellent web site of yours, one notes reference to the Bishop of Alexandria, named Athanasius, who had attended the Council of Nicea in 325. According to Ehrman, and also Wikipedia, Athanasius is the guy whose letter to the various church branches in Egypt in ~367 CE, clarified exactly WHICH of the many sources available, represented authentic aources detailing the life of Jesus, and Athanasius' letter, thus represents the EARLIEST known source of the "New Testament." Ehrman makes the interesting point, in his fascinating book, Lost Christianities, that PRIOR to Athansius' famous letter, there were MANY different traditions, documents, and so on, in other words, the relative homogeneity which we observe today, was not found in the history of the early church. I urge anyone with an interest in history of christianity to read Ehrman's book. It is excellent. I especially enjoyed his brief description of my namesake: Thomas, TWIN brother of Jesus!!
Smile
Post 22 Feb 2008, 22:38
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vid
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vid
Quote:
My information was based on reading this book:

does the book quote historical sources for that claim?
Post 24 Feb 2008, 01:05
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
vid wrote:

does the book quote historical sources for that claim?
I read it over very quickly, and then returned it to the public library, and so I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I suppose it does, because he includes Eight pages of notes and references in the book on Judas. He is a "gnostic" scholar, fluent in Greek and Aramaic, though, not Coptic, and a university professor, whose books are published by reliable sources (Oxford University Press!), and who served as one of the three experts in the field, for the National Geographic Investigation of the Judas manuscript....
I am quite confident that his work will withstand scrutiny over time.
Smile
Post 24 Feb 2008, 23:42
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vid
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vid
Tom: it's not him i doubt about Wink

But i still would like to identify historical document which says it was Constantine who assigned christmas to 24th. by the way, i would expect that document to be Latin, not any of languages listed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Christian_origins
Post 25 Feb 2008, 01:26
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edfed



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edfed
aztec calendar is the only one to be valid.
it works very well, and don't need the boring leap seconds and years.
in 4000 years, it will works as well as 1000 years ago.

but, as we live in an expensional universe, the years, the days, the seconds becomes longer.
Post 25 Feb 2008, 01:34
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vid
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but, as we live in an expensional universe, the years, the days, the seconds becomes longer.

Where did you learn THAT? Seconds become longer? And what do the longer days (slower rotation of earth) and longer years (slover orbiting of earth around sun) have to do with expanding universe?
Post 25 Feb 2008, 09:22
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html
The Winter solstice has been regarded as a "magical" day for AT LEAST 5000 years ("Newgrange" in Ireland, Stonehenge in England.) Emperor Constantine not only VISITED England, he was crowned Emperor in York, so, I IMAGINE, i.e. without data, that he accepted the notion that the Winter solstice was a VERY important day. As for the question of EVIDENCE that it was Constantine who assigned the Winter Solstice to Jesus' birth, I am not sure that we possess an adequate reference, much of the support for this idea is based on the ABSENCE of any earlier assignation--in other words, various authors proposed other dates, in January, in April, and so on..., but there appears to be no reliable historical source PRIOR to Constantine, for suggesting 25 December.
http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/chronology/Chrmas.html
Smile
Post 25 Feb 2008, 10:43
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vid
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Quote:
but there appears to be no reliable historical source PRIOR to Constantine, for suggesting 25 December.


1. This would be valid argument if there was any historical source for 25th december jesus birthday at time of Constantine. Otherwise, you can randomly pick any ruler before first reference, and use same argument to argue that he assigned jesus birthday ("because there is no prior evidence"). What is the historical reference at constantine's time?

2. Yes, there is evidence prior to Constantine. Did you happen to read wikipedia link I gave you? Encyclopedia Britannica says:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082431/Christmas wrote:
December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus' birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date.


Curiously, your link doesn't mention Africanus for 25th december. We should look up that precise passage in Africanus which talks about 25th december to resolve this.
Post 25 Feb 2008, 12:03
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vid
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vid
I failed to find exact reference to date of Jesus birth in Africanus.

Extant work of his can be found here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.v.html

I see some mentions of jesus here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.v.v.xviii.html

It does contain some fucked up computations (according to translator, Africanus didn't have idea what he is writing about), but it seems they refer to jesuses death, not birth.

PS: Here is yet another funky jesus fable that early christians apparently believed: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.vi.iii.ii.xvi.html

You can try your luck in finding that passage...
Post 25 Feb 2008, 12:40
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
Where did you learn THAT? Seconds become longer? And what do the longer days (slower rotation of earth) and longer years (slover orbiting of earth around sun) have to do with expanding universe?
AFAIK we sense everything 'relative' to us, so in fact, when we move, we 'move the world around us' instead. So then, we WON'T experience longer seconds like edfed said, because it's relative, to us in this case.

I guess edfed was talking about "time" getting longer, not just 'the days' that we perceive because of the sun. Time gets 'longer' because the Universe is expanding, and time is like Light.
Post 25 Feb 2008, 13:14
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edfed



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edfed
Quote:
Where did you learn THAT? Seconds become longer? And what do the longer days (slower rotation of earth) and longer years (slover orbiting of earth around sun) have to do with expanding universe?

expension is a relative phenomenon
as stated in the E=MC² and others einstein statements, the universe is expending
the orbit of the earth becomes longer, the rotation is slower (leap second)
a second is always a second, but if a second is a fraction of a minute, that is fraction of an hour and fraction of a day, then second become longer, it's logic.


abou jesus, there is an error in the real year 0, in fact we are in 2012, offset is 4 years. or 3, they cannot agree about the real date.
the cause is in middle age.

apocalipse wil happen this year.

Laughing
Post 25 Feb 2008, 22:36
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vid
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vid
Quote:
as stated in the E=MC² and others einstein statements, the universe is expending

how does e=mc2 or any other einstein's theorem imply expanding universe?

Quote:
the orbit of the earth becomes longer, the rotation is slower (leap second)

couldn't it be that "universe is epanding" it's edges, without moving earth further from sun?

Quote:
a second is always a second, but if a second is a fraction of a minute, that is fraction of an hour and fraction of a day, then second become longer, it's logic.

that would be true, if second was defined as fraction of time it takes earth to rotate, or revolve around sun. And such definition would be stupid, since earth's rotation actually *is* slowing down (even though it has nothing to do with expanding universe)

Quote:
abou jesus, there is an error in the real year 0, in fact we are in 2012, offset is 4 years. or 3, they cannot agree about the real date.

That can only quess, becaus only sources on jesus nativity are pretty unhistorical gospels of mathew and luke, which are anyway just reeditions of gospel of mark (see http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=669). Both Matthew and Luke say it was at time of Herod (eg. before 4BC), but Luke also mentions it was at time of census of Quirnius (after 6AD). Note that both descriptions of Herod and census are pretty unhistorical. Feel free to pick any date you like.

But of course 4BC is natural pick, it is as close as you can get to quessed traditional date year 0, with only one error in inerrant scripture (Luke about census and Quirnius)
Post 26 Feb 2008, 00:07
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edfed



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edfed
Quote:

how does e=mc2 or any other einstein's theorem imply expanding universe?


this formula explains a lot of things
as the energy develloped by a kick in the face, e=mc²
e=energy
m=mass
c=celerity, speed
² is the coef of proportionality
if an object, with mass=1DaN, run at 1 meter/s
then the energy is 1 DaN.s, the joule conversion, i don't know, i'm not really mathematician

so, imagine, the acceleration of universe expansion, the expansion is deccelerating, but it still works. possible it will "stop" one "day".
but, as it's not a discreete universe, it cannot stops, the minimal distance possible is really little. like 1.0E-(1/0) atometers.
the presence of two opposites forces at the same point, the result is an infinite enrgy, distance = 0, charge = 1

1/0 = infinite.

hard ot explain

all the universe is expanding
the sun is currentlly running to cignus constelation, but it is just a direction, since the sun was born, he makes a lot of rotates around the milky way.
the expansion is permanent, and we, humans, cannot really see it as we are parts of this universe.
some things impossible to disproof:
in 5 minutes, all sizes are multiplied by 5, but as all is relative, we don't see it.

do you feel the gravity acceleration when you are in your bed? totally drunk!
we are used to the rotation of the planet since we were born, (and before), we are used to it's acceleration, but we don't feel it... only way to feel:
it is to have the brain and nervous system corrupted, like drunk.
when you are drunk you feel the rotation of earth, you feel it really, and make you feel ill. like on a centrifuge or a Kid Centrifuge Turnstile.

and don't see it like a delirium, it is the exactness.
Post 26 Feb 2008, 00:35
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vid
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vid
1/0 is undefined, not infinite. anyway, more exact study and less drugs Smile
Post 26 Feb 2008, 00:55
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edfed



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edfed
Evil or Very Mad

i study at home, net and street are my school, and no drug so many.

rememeber, when you have a question about universe, just look the night sky.
if you look too much the human world, you cannot obtain the needed point of view.

money, law, cities, countries... all these doesn't help to SEE the DRUGs effect without drugs.
faiths come from the inexplicable things, why? when? to be or not to be, is it real, etc... all these teenagers questions... Very Happy

for calandar, the christian one is the calandar we all use...
but islam have a calendar with offset = -600 years....
this calendar is based on sun and moon
our calendar is based on moon and sun
sun for the year
moon, for the mounth
moon, mounth, they seems so, similar
sunday
monday
and seasons
we cut the time with all we know and see
as moon and sun cannot be ignored, and were seen by dinosaurs, it is pretty normal to base our time on them

on jupiter and others planets, the calendars are quite different

mars one, wwith two moons
mercure, no moons, sun as big as the sky.
pluton, one moon ( or twin) and sun as big as a dot in the sky.

and us, moon, sun, stars, seasons


edit:
for me, 1/0 is infinite, if you try to solve it by hand, with the elementary school method, you'll see...
Post 26 Feb 2008, 01:04
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
vid wrote:
1/0 is undefined, not infinite. anyway, more exact study and less drugs Smile
Let me explain why you're wrong.

Yes, you are correct vid, that 1/0 is "undefined" (actually, if you find it's purpose, you'll discover God! joking).

Here's why 1/0 is hard to understand. Sure, 1/0 seems to be infinite like edfed pointed out, but actually ask yourself: Minus infinity, or Plus infinity? If you answer +infinity, then ask yourself: Is ZERO Negative or Positive?

As it isn't, the result could be infinite, but not + or - infinity. It is an abstract infinite. Of course edfed wasn't talking about this but +infinity. And he's correct, but not because of this, rather because of the fact that in his post he mentioned the Universe coming to size 0 from a POSITIVE size (>0 obviously).

That means, that as it approaches ZERO, it does so from the positive side, so we can safely say 1/+0 equals +infinity.

Confused?
Post 28 Feb 2008, 16:04
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