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Joined: 13 Jul 2005
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Perhaps this is probably not the best thread to get into, but what if God, in Christianity, is also learning. How can one who is "perfect" manage those on earth who are "imperfect"? Maybe he has relaxed the rules which the traditional laws in the OT stated, and realised? that as his chosen people are terrible at following them, maybe give the chance to others as well (follow this new relaxed rules).
I do not think its stated anywhere in the Bible(but I might be wrong) but God must be learning? to be more merciful in order to support human flaws. If we are made in His likeness, does that suggest He is much like us?

There are contradictions of course, but maybe rugxulo will find answers: if God was all-knowing, why would he be learning? I can only guess that he is all-knowing but as he gave us a freedom of choice, and that human's change - he must change with us. Perhaps its not learning? after all, but a dynamic interaction that God must have with us. As God is eternal, this interaction may be quite slow.

If we were made in his likeness, why were we not perfect? Perhaps we were, the fruit from the tree in the Garden of Eden corrupted us.

I've not answered anything, just posed a series of extra questions - which may stimulate this debate into some more sense. <Crosses fingers>
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:32
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
god is not a person.
god is nothing and everything at the same time.
so, god can be anything.
my computer is part of god, and the cigarettes i smokes too.

the eden apple, what is this?
why there was a big, juicy, and lighting red apple in the middle of the garden? just to corrupt adam?
i don't care.

what is the colour of adam? white? black? yellow? red? arab?
we do't know and we don't care, it's only a mythology. exactlly like the old greek ones, or viking. it was the magic universe perception of ancestors.

bible, coran, etc... these books are only books.
the holy bible, now, it's money, google and nasa.

i don't understand why intelligent people believe in this book.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 14:25
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Verbosity in development

Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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I do not think its stated anywhere in the Bible(but I might be wrong) but God must be learning? to be more merciful in order to support human flaws. If we are made in His likeness, does that suggest He is much like us?

But question is, why did he set up so stupid rules in first place? Why the hell should God care so much about menstruation, penises, virgins, killing, tribal wars in middle east, animal sacrifaces, etc. and much less about other stuff in rest of world, like zounds of live beings dying painfully every moment?

To me, it sounds much more like what people cared about 2500-3000 years ago in one precise area, not god. Bible reflects ideas of those people, and it's very hard to spot some omnipotent eternal allknowing being in their ramble now, thousands year later.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 14:33
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When all else fails, read the source

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17248
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
God in the gaps. If we (as a people) don't understand it then it must be god, what other explanation can there possibly be? But, of course, every day those gape are getting smaller and smaller with new discoveries. How long before there are no more gaps? Then where will be room for god?
Post 08 Feb 2008, 14:37
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tom tobias

Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
edfed wrote:
...i don't understand why intelligent people believe in this book.{the christian bible}
yesterday evening, I met Ali, my favorite point guard, at the gymnasium, and we discussed the case of
Sayed Parvez Kambakhsh, the ostensible subject of this thread, the kid, about Ali's age, i.e. 23, or so, and I asked Ali about blasphemy, and also the issue of killing anyone who denies Allah, who denies the quran, who considers the whole judao-christian-muslim debacle to be boring, and, as vid rightfully pointed out, simply a reflection of people's interests and knowledge from a few thousand years ago... Ali admitted the slavery issue, but did not seem offended by it. He denied my claim that the Quran states that it is the duty of believers to EXECUTE, (kill) people like me, openly blasphemous, he challenged me to find the passages that state that, so next week, when we meet, I will bring my trusty copy of ye olde Quran, and show him the appropriate highlighted passages.
The whole point, from my perspective, is that in USA folks imagine that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are focused against Islamic terrorists, whereas, in my point of view, USA is simply attacking Iraq to gain control of the oil, and Afghanistan to have a convenient military presence nearby China, as well as encirclement of archenemy PERSIA, which also controls a great deal of oil, owned by USA. This not Islamic fundamentalist "terrorism" in my view, associated with demanding death for Sayed Parvez Kambakhsh, because his crime (and mine, the same) is punishable most properly by DEATH, according to the scriptures of Quran. Is this terrorism, or simply freedom of religion?
Post 08 Feb 2008, 20:04
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revolution wrote:

How long before there are no more gaps? Then where will be room for god?

I can't answer that for everyone but for me the gaps are gone, what is left is just an admiration of the math that you see in all of life, nature and everything.

A ten thousand year old tree, the exquisite sound of a single note from the voice of someone singing, these are just examples of the purity of math, there is no more room for a god.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 23:14
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vid wrote:

So you AGREE with god killing for all those reasons, yes? And even though those kills, you still believe god is "merciful".

It is justice (aka, fair) to punish those who commit crimes. It is mercy to not do that even though completely justified. I forget the exact quote, but it's something like "You can't have mercy without justice" or "Those who are just must also be kind."

Proverbs 19 wrote:

The false witness will not go unpunished, and he who utters lies will perish.
It is good sense in a man to be slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

The king's wrath is like the roaring of a lion, but his favor, like dew on the grass.
He who keeps the precept keeps his life, but the despiser of the word will die.

Chastise your son, for in this there is hope; but do not desire his death.

Also, despite your claims, God does not hurt the innocent:

Genesis 6 wrote:

At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown. When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."
When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: "I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth. Make yourself an ark of gopherwood, put various compartments in it, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you shall build it: the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make an opening for daylight in the ark, and finish the ark a cubit above it. Put an entrance in the side of the ark, which you shall make with bottom, second and third decks. I, on my part, am about to bring the flood (waters) on the earth, to destroy everywhere all creatures in which there is the breath of life; everything on earth shall perish. But with you I will establish my covenant; you and your sons, your wife and your sons' wives, shall go into the ark. Of all other living creatures you shall bring two into the ark, one male and one female, that you may keep them alive with you. Of all kinds of birds, of all kinds of beasts, and of all kinds of creeping things, two of each shall come into the ark with you, to stay alive.

... and:

Genesis 18 wrote:

Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out." While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty? Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?" The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" "For the sake of those ten," he replied, "I will not destroy it."

So there.

vid wrote:

And another question, if god wanted you to kill someone in his name (as he did many times in OT, surely such "speeding up death" would be justified if god wanted it), would you do it?

First, I would have to verify that it was God, i.e. did the so-called apparition obey the commandments? And why are they asking me, a nobody? I'm not able to judge. God can do what He wants without me. (In other words, no, I would strongly resist believing that despite what anyone tells me since it seems contrary to what I've been taught. Don't forget #5 says, "You shall not kill"!)

vid wrote:

We are all guilty

Were those egyptian infants whom god killed guilty too? You know the story, Yahweh "hardened pharaon's heart" several times, so that pharaon refused to let israelites go, and then punished egyptian infants for it.

Some things are worse than death. Death is not the end. God did not invent death but life. Willfully breaking the commandments is bad, and God does get "angry" if it's in a serious manner.

I believe this moreso emphasized how life did not come from the false Egyptian gods but from the LORD Himself. This was the "Passover". Life is only a moment in God's eyes, and if He chooses to extend it or shorten it, He is just. You cannot (successfully) argue with Him (see Job).

Exodus 10:1-2 wrote:

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have made him and his servants obdurate in order that I may perform these signs of mine among them and that you may recount to your son and grandson how ruthlessly I dealt with the Egyptians and what signs I wrought among them, so that you may know that I am the LORD."

Exodus 11:4-10 wrote:

Moses then said, "Thus says the LORD: At midnight I will go forth through Egypt. Every first-born in this land shall die, from the first-born of Pharaoh on the throne to the first-born of the slave-girl at the handmill, as well as all the first-born of the animals. Then there shall be loud wailing throughout the land of Egypt, such as has never been, nor will ever be again. But among the Israelites and their animals not even a dog shall growl, so that you may know how the LORD distinguishes between the Egyptians and the Israelites. All these servants of yours shall then come down to me, and prostrate before me, they shall beg me, 'Leave us, you and all your followers!' Only then will I depart." With that he left Pharaoh's presence in hot anger. The LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh refuses to listen to you that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt." Thus, although Moses and Aaron performed these various wonders in Pharaoh's presence, the LORD made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not let the Israelites leave his land.

Exodus 13:11-6 wrote:

"When the LORD, your God, has brought you into the land of the Canaanites, which he swore to you and your fathers he would give you,
you shall dedicate to the LORD every son that opens the womb; and all the male firstlings of your animals shall belong to the LORD. Every first-born of an ass you shall redeem with a sheep. If you do not redeem it, you shall break its neck. Every first-born son you must redeem. If your son should ask you later on, 'What does this mean?' you shall tell him, 'With a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, that place of slavery. When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every first-born in the land of Egypt, every first-born of man and of beast. That is why I sacrifice to the LORD everything of the male sex that opens the womb, and why I redeem every first-born of my sons.' Let this, then, be as a sign on your hand and as a pendant on your forehead: with a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."
Post 13 Feb 2008, 04:57
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The Selfish Gene

The God Delusion
Post 14 Feb 2008, 06:30
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Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)

placplacplac writes:
very good book,tanks a lot!
Added 20 hours 8 minutes ago

Can't even spell or provide proper grammar?! Plus, his/her avatar has no face. Therefore, I declare that this so-called commentor/person never existed. And the "tanks" bit will surely infuriate tom_tobias. (*grumble grumble* war-mongering non-existing people *grumble* grumble*)
Post 14 Feb 2008, 18:50
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