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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:

Don't take those quotations too seriously, i just wanted to demonstrate what can one do with quotes. I explained that jesus's message was mostly to stay peaceful, but wanted to show it was not so clean & nice as often portrayed.


Yes, anything can be misused for malice, even parts of the Bible!

Matthew 4:5-7 wrote:

Then the devil took him to the holy city, and made him stand on the parapet of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: [Psalms 91:11-2] 'He will command his angels concerning you and 'with their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone.'" Jesus answered him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.'"


vid wrote:

Quote:
Two people walk in darkness. One sees the light and accepts God, but the other refuses. Can they still be friends? Can they still carouse as if God did not exist? No. They are split up. They can no longer enjoy each other's company, they now have different preferences. If you accept God, you avoid evil, but if you reject Him, you welcome it.

I hope you didn't mean this seriously. Can't you be friend with non-christian?


Only on a certain level. We can never share in activities or discussions etc. which are forbidden by God. Even if you don't care, I do. Therefore, if you (in theory) decide to rob a bank (or any other sin), I won't help. I would be more inclined to do productive things.

vid wrote:

Quote:
but if you reject Him, you welcome it.

Are you saying that all non-christians ("those which reject Jesus") are evil ("welcome evil")? Do you think that I (as atheist) am evil?


No man is inherently evil because we are all God's creation. Only sin (and the embodiment of sin, the devil and his cohorts, those who permanently and intentionally offend God and everyone else) are evil.

It's true, though, in the extreme sense: if you personally knew Jesus was God and yet refused to follow Him, I would probably do best to avoid you.

Sirach 13:1-23 wrote:

He who touches pitch blackens his hand; he who associates with an impious man learns his ways. Bear no burden too heavy for you; go with no one greater or wealthier than yourself. How can the earthen pot go with the metal cauldron? When they knock together, the pot will be smashed: The rich man does wrong and boasts of it, the poor man is wronged and begs forgiveness. As long as the rich man can use you he will enslave you, but when you are exhausted, he will abandon you. As long as you have anything he will speak fair words to you, and with smiles he will win your confidence; When he needs something from you he will cajole you, then without regret he will impoverish you. While it serves his purpose he will beguile you, then twice or three times he will terrify you; When later he sees you he will pass you by, and shake his head over you. Guard against being presumptuous; be not as those who lack sense. When invited by a man of influence, keep your distance; then he will urge you all the more. Be not bold with him lest you be rebuffed, but keep not too far away lest you be forgotten. Engage not freely in discussion with him, trust not his many words; For by prolonged talk he will test you, and though smiling he will probe you. Mercilessly he will make of you a laughingstock, and will not refrain from injury or chains. Be on your guard and take care never to accompany men of violence. Every living thing loves its own kind, every man a man like himself. Every being is drawn to its own kind; with his own kind every man associates. Is a wolf ever allied with a lamb? So it is with the sinner and the just. Can there be peace between the hyena and the dog? Or between the rich and the poor can there be peace? Lion's prey are the wild asses of the desert; so too the poor are feeding grounds for the rich. A proud man abhors lowliness; so does the rich man abhor the poor. When a rich man stumbles he is supported by a friend; when a poor man trips he is pushed down by a friend. Many are the supporters for a rich man when he speaks; though what he says is odious, it wins approval. When a poor man speaks they make sport of him; he speaks wisely and no attention is paid him. A rich man speaks and all are silent, his wisdom they extol to the clouds. A poor man speaks and they say: "Who is that?" If he slips they cast him down. Wealth is good when there is no sin; but poverty is evil by the standards of the proud.


Matthew 19:23-6 wrote:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible."



vid wrote:

Quote:
He wanted to see her faith.

Isn't Jesus according to today's theology supposed to know everything?


Yes. But God requires faith in Him.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 19:21
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vid
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vid
Quote:
No man is inherently evil because we are all God's creation. Only sin (and the embodiment of sin, the devil and his cohorts, those who permanently and intentionally offend God and everyone else) are evil.

so do you take back your claim that non-christians "welcome evil"?

Btw, i still wonder about your opinion on barbaric old testament. In some places in bible, jesus explicitly said OT still applies. And even if not, was it okay then to lynch people for being homosexual, or for pronouncing god's name (let us not forget that god has a name, Yahweh)?
Post 02 Feb 2008, 19:51
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vid
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vid
PS: one more interesting citation

Luke 14:26 wrote:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 19:52
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid, there is a difference between one who has not yet seen the light and one who distinctly refuses to obey and serve God.

As for that quote, I remember responding to that in the (anti-)Buddhism thread, so you may do well to look it up there. (But I doubt it makes any difference to your opinion.)
Post 02 Feb 2008, 20:30
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vid
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vid
and how about that Old Testament cruelty?
Post 02 Feb 2008, 20:40
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vid
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vid
found your answer: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=6515&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180#53196

Quote:
Notice that "love ... more than [God]" is considered bad here? But how can "love" be bad? We are not focusing on the literal meaning of one word here but the general idea. You should not love imperfect things over the truly perfect. You should not love sin over virtue. You should not love possessions over God or God's work.


But here YOU are misinterpreting bible. That part of Luke doesn't condemn loving family over loving god, like you put it. It says that NOT HATING family is bad. It literally and very explicitly says that you can not be christian, if you don't hate your family.

Basically, you didn't answer that part. You pasted part of different text from different book (Matthew) behind that, and then commented about what that Matthew said, instead of commenting about Luke.

And as for loving god more than family, if you would believe that god wants you to kill your parents, would you do it?
Post 02 Feb 2008, 20:50
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
if jesus is on earth now, what he would do? maybe he will fly to slovakia to meet vid and explain to him Smile

am i right Smile
Post 03 Feb 2008, 01:44
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:

You pasted part of different text from different book (Matthew) behind that, and then commented about what that Matthew said, instead of commenting about Luke.


Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all synoptic gospels each for a different tradition in the Church, each aimed at a different audience. But they are all divinely inspired and indeed fully agree with each other (just perhaps a few subtle differences). John is the oddball out (not synoptic) but more strong in teaching in some ways with more clear words. So, they aren't really "different". If you read Matthew and Luke back-to-back, you will see how (intentionally) very very very similar they are.

Besides, the real truth is you are stumbling over language as if that is really a barrier.

Matthew 10:37-8 wrote:

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.


Luke 14:26-7 wrote:

"If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.


You can sometimes correctly say "hate" when you mean "not love" and vice versa. God must indeed come first before family (although God has never neglected any of us nor suggested/permitted anybody do so).

vid wrote:

And as for loving god more than family, if you would believe that god wants you to kill your parents, would you do it?


It's impossible. God doesn't want any to perish, and as quoted above (in the book of Wisdom), it's only because of the devil (not God) that we will indeed die. The "Father of Life" has no interest in death.

The interesting parallel here is to Abraham and his only son Isaac (Gen. 22). God asked him to sacrifice his son, and he was fully willing to because he trusted God fully and knew God could raise his son from the dead (since God is the one who gave him life anyways). And, before he could even lay a hand on his son, the angel stopped him, for God was only testing his faith. (This is a foreshadowing of God's own son, Jesus, becoming the sin offering for us.)
Post 03 Feb 2008, 01:55
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vid
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Quote:
You can sometimes correctly say "hate" when you mean "not love" and vice versa. God must indeed come first before family (although God has never neglected any of us nor suggested/permitted anybody do so).

To make some point, you needed to substitute "hate" with "not love" - who is the one misrepresenting bible now? Do you think author was so stupid to write "hate when he meant "not love"? There is pretty big difference between those.

And anyway, let us see your subtitution:
Quote:
If any one comes to me without not loving his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.


removing double negative:
Quote:
If any one comes to me loving his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.


Even with that substition (which doesn't have any rationale apart from forcing bible to say what you want it to say), the text says something completely different than you are saying. Is this how you read bible? If someting doesn't fit your idea about what bible should say, you stretch it until it does?

Quote:
God doesn't want any to perish, and as quoted above (in the book of Wisdom), it's only because of the devil (not God) that we will indeed die.

And this brings us back to my questions regarding Old Testament, which you haven't answered several times... How about all those cases in OT, where god explicitly asked someone to kill someone else? OT is full of god commanding people to kill, or killing himself. Of course, if someone dares not to obey God's command to murder, God kills him.

One example for many, god commands people to kill their relatives because they were worshipping other deities (just after giving out commandments including "thou shalt not kill"):
Exodus 32:27 wrote:

Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.


Exhaustive list of Yahweh's killing excesses here: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Post 03 Feb 2008, 03:49
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid, God clearly doesn't want us to hate our parents or else he wouldn't make the fourth commandment "Honor your father and mother"! I mean, it doesn't get clearer than that.

As far as God's justice and anger, He is a just and fair judge. People do some horribly wicked things (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah, sacrificing their children to false gods, worshipping a golden calf, talking bad about God even after he freed them from slavery in Egypt, stealing, murdering, cheating, blaspheming, sacrilege). And again, the fifth commandment says, "You shall not kill." So that's proof that God is against that idea, certainly.

So, to recap, you are complaining that God hates parents and wants us to kill on a whim, and yet, the whole foundation of the Bible is the Ten Commandments. There is nothing more important for us to do than loving God (1-3) and loving neighbor (4-10). Love and mercy and forgiveness, not stupid other crap.

This is all repeating what I already said in the other threads, but look: "the wages of sin is death". Sin (disobedience and disloyalty to God) is what caused death, and it can even cause spiritual death (since man is both body and spirit). Every sin deserves death, and every sin can separate us from God (if we let it). But we should strive to do what is right "in God's eyes", not our own, in order to comply with the "law" of love.

But vid, you don't believe in God, so you only have the so-called death you (apparently) hate, and that you presumably blame completely on people who believe in religion. You're just going to make yourself madder and madder over a situation that you can't control. Life and death is (mostly) out of our hands. Put your life in God's hands. Blaming people and rejecting God's word won't get you anywhere (but you may have to find that out the long and tedious way, meh).
Post 03 Feb 2008, 04:21
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edfed



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edfed
as problems on computers and cars cannot control, and they don't see us as gods.

what is over your god? E.T.?

believe things, ok. try to explain, OK. speak only of it, not OK.

do you know why you believe in the powerfull god?

i have some answers to this:

you believe in fatality, the fact you cannot change your "destiny"
you have your brain washed since chilhood.
you live in USA, the country where GOD is an escape and a way to control population
do you know why religion tend to disapear from EUROPE?
cause it's not the TRUTH, and we know that.
our ancestors has been fist-fucked many times by RELIGION, and now, we know what is exactlly th e GOAL of religion.
CONTROL PEOPLE, exactlly LIKE POLITICS.

human evolution tend to NO POLITICS, NO RELIGION, only real facts.
it's endless to make bad actions the week, and go to confessiopnal the sunday.
the best is to be in harmony with ourself.
make good actions everydays, and no need of confessional.

USA is a YOUNG country, like a capricious baby. EUROPE is more mature, and now, EUROPE don't believe in GOD or FATHER CHRISTMAS.

THERE are some execptions, but the tendance is to leave this middle age idea of GOD.
and believe more in OUR own POWER. no place for fatality, or destiny. you make your own destiny. that's all.
Post 03 Feb 2008, 13:04
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vid
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vid
rugxulo wrote:
As far as God's justice and anger, He is a just and fair judge.

It's perfectly fine to believe in such god. Yes, this is what was written in some books, that later became part of compilation of texts known as Bible. But this compilation also contains Gospel of Luke, and Gospel of Luke very clearly says you have to hate your family in order to be a disciple of Jesus. Maybe original writer of Luke didn't view "disciple of Jesus" to be same as "follower of Yahweh" ?

Quote:
And again, the fifth commandment says, "You shall not kill." So that's proof that God is against that idea, certainly.

Another possible translation is "You shall not murder", which (even today) is not viewed same as killing (it's just one specific case of killing). And Yahweh orders people to kill all the time in old testament, even immediately after giving these laws. That makes "murder" translation more likely, otherwise Yahweh would have to be pretty schizophrenic giving some law and immediately after that commanding people to break them.

Quote:
So, to recap, you are complaining that God hates parents and wants us to kill on a whim, and yet, the whole foundation of the Bible is the Ten Commandments.

No, I am arguing that teaching of Luke (eg. followers of Jesus, not all of whom were also followers of Yahweh) contradicts teaching of Pentaneuch and some other Septuagint books, which were later compiled into "Bible".

And speaking of 10 commandments.. Bible's version of ten commandments is pretty different. Different set of commands are called "10 commandments" in bible. "Our" 10 commandments were part of bigger set of commands, were said directly to people not just moses, they were not included in any of two versions of stone tablets, and were not ones called "10 commandments" by bible. Check Exodus (or at least beginning of this article: http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/ten_commandments.htm)


Quote:
But vid, you don't believe in God, so you only have the so-called death you (apparently) hate, and that you presumably blame completely on people who believe in religion.

You think I hate death and blame religious people for it? No, not at all, death is natural, and it is good in a way (allows evolution and progress). I hate people who incite unnatural death (kill), if that's what you meant.

Quote:
Put your life in God's hands. Blaming people and rejecting God's word won't get you anywhere (but you may have to find that out the long and tedious way, meh).

Problem is that you are gonna have hard time convicing me that 4th century compilation of texts is "god's word", especially with all that racist old testament hatred bullshit included.

And even if it really is god's word, then well, screw him. I see no point worshipping god who makes peple homosexual and then commands us to kill them for that, or who commands us to kill woman because she didn't scream loud enough when she was raped, or who commands us to kill our relatives if they try to convert us to different religion, etc.
Post 03 Feb 2008, 15:03
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
rugxulo wrote:
...there is a difference between one who has not yet seen the light and one who distinctly refuses to obey and serve God.
And, my friend, is it not then true that:
(a) tom is one who "distinctly refuses to obey," or even believe; AND
(b) that "difference" translates, historically, into DEATH for blasphemers, i.e. LOGICALLY, rugxulo OUGHT to defend the decision to EXECUTE the young student for distributing an essay questioning why it was acceptable for males to possess four wives, but not vice versa? I have been studying the Quran, but have thus far failed to find the salient passage. I found this:
Quran 'Al-Nisa' 4: 130 wrote:
You cannot keep perfect balance between your wives,...
and this:
Quran 'Al-Baqarah' 2: 223-224 wrote:
Your wives are as a tilth for you, so approach your tilth as you like and lay up a store for yourselves.
Regarding the question of how to treat the blasphemers, like tom, the Quran does not beat around the bush:
writing about 'disbelievers', aka 'hypocrites', Quran 4: 89-92 wrote:
...seize them and kill them wherever you find them

I had not realized, until today, that the Quran acknowledges slavery, without opposition, I suppose the same is true of the Bible and Torah:
writing about killing 'believers', Quran 4: 93 wrote:
If the person slain be of people hostile to you, though himself a believer, the offender shall free, or procure the freedom of, a believing slave.
That is truly a REMARKABLE quotation. Think about it. Islamic men who kill other Islamic men, need to free one of their Islamic believing SLAVES as compensation to GOD, i.e. Allah. In other words, slavery is condoned for Islam. Is slavery ALSO condoned or treated as normative in either the new or old testament????
Exhorting us to have faith in supernatural power, rugxulo wrote:
...Put your life in God's hands.
And then, circularly, as usual, we return to the same question: How does any person "know God's will"? Answer: From the [take your pick] Bible, Torah, Quran. Here's the Quran, focus of this thread:
Quran 4: 106 wrote:
We have sent down to thee this book comprising the truth,...
THE TRUTH.
Hmm.
describing the death of Jesus, the Quran 4: 156-162 wrote:
...and those who have differed in the matter of his having been taken down alive from the cross are certainly in a state of doubt concerning it, they have no definite knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture;...

The TRUTH. Hmm. But, then, didn't this Afghan student distribute a leaflet bearing FACTUAL doctrine? Was he spreading salacious gossip? No, he was simply quoting the Quran, and asking questions, not unlike our own activities on this forum. I think the Forum needs to send a document protesting his ARREST, (let alone his death, for engaging in the behaviour which we ourselves conduct DAILY,) to the leaders of those European nations contributing BLOOD and tears to fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan. If this young man has committed some violation of proper behaviour, then, haven't we as well????Why is it WRONG to ask questions?
Hint: rugxulo, you err, friend, in suggesting a different treatment for believers versus non-believers. Your attitude is EXACTLY the same as the attitude of those judges who condemned the boy to death. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE WHO BELIEVE THIS RELIGIOUS GARBAGE, and those who do not. Islam, Christianity, and their forbearer, Judaism, are all three, terrorist in scope, and practice.
Post 03 Feb 2008, 17:02
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edfed



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edfed
forum error:
cyclic data redoundance.. Very Happy
Post 03 Feb 2008, 17:20
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Man this thread is insane!

I ask Rugxulo to formally state his support for the Palestinian people who are being bombed, murdered, bulldozed, tortured. He refused to, stating (in his own words) he can not because of is religious beliefs .... and all that came of this incredible example showing why religion is evil, is nonsense bible babel Sad

You guys are really bad debaters. How about thinking and posting your own thoughts instead of posting regurgitated bible nonsense Sad
Post 03 Feb 2008, 22:02
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vid
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vid
MichaelH You seem to have missed flow of the topic:
- tom stated, among other things, that all these three religions include killing nonbelievers in their doctrine
- revolution contested it
- i proved that what tom stated is true
- rugxulo tried to argue that doctrine of christianity says NOT to kill
- i pointed out that christianity includes old testament, which is full of commands to kill

There was no dispute here over practice of christianity in this debate, where rugxulo opinion would matter. We were discussing the doctrine. Your question is relevant to original topic (it discusses practice of christianity by rugxulo as example), but is irrelevant to currently discussed dispute.


Last edited by vid on 04 Feb 2008, 00:46; edited 1 time in total
Post 04 Feb 2008, 00:23
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f0dder



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f0dder
vid wrote:
Even with that substition (which doesn't have any rationale apart from forcing bible to say what you want it to say), the text says something completely different than you are saying. Is this how you read bible? If someting doesn't fit your idea about what bible should say, you stretch it until it does?


Isn't that how any religious text is supposed to be read? :]

MichaelH wrote:
I ask Rugxulo to formally state his support for the Palestinian people who are being bombed, murdered, bulldozed, tortured. He refused to, stating (in his own words) he can not because of is religious beliefs...


Why would you support the Palestine terrorists? Wipe that scum clean off from the face of the earth. Heck, turn the whole middle east into glass, then bury any muslim-supporting people i the rest of the world in mass graves, alive.
Post 04 Feb 2008, 00:34
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
vid wrote:

We were discussing the doctrine.



That's your opinion. My opinion is your IQ is too low to debate using your own thoughts so as usual you engage in re posting regurgitated text from somewhere while massaging your own ego to believe you are actually appearing to be a thinking person Sad


Quote:

Your question is relevant to original topic (it discusses practice of christianity by rugxulo as example), but is irrelevant to currently discussed dispute.


Your endless crap bible babel has destroy several threads. How about sticking to the topic for once.




See fudders ridiculous rant. If after that reply you fail to see my point and how it relates to what is happening in Afganistan, the original topic before you and rugxulo once again sabotaged another thread with your nonsense bible babel, you never will!


Of course you are too stupid to realise what really has transpired, so I'll spell it out for you, tom asked -

Quote:

How many European Nations are currently fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? How many Europeans are dying to protect the people who ordered the death of this journalist?


Answer, all those nations/people who really just want to kill Muslims while hiding behind the belief the other side is in fact the terrorist. The true terrorist of this world, the fudders, the rugxulos, they live amongts us!!!!


Last edited by MichaelH on 04 Feb 2008, 03:03; edited 1 time in total
Post 04 Feb 2008, 01:01
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vid
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vid
MichaelH wrote:
vid wrote:
We were discussing the doctrine.
That's your opinion.My opinion is your IQ is too low to debate using your own thoughts so as usual you engage in re posting regurgitated text from somewhere while massaging your own ego to believe you are actually appearing to be a thinking person

okay Laughing

wonder what is your high IQ opinion about following tom's claim (the one from which the following debate continued), if not talking about scriptures and doctrine:
Quote:
What do the Torah, Bible, and Koran all have in common--death to non-believers.


Quote:
Quote:
Your question is relevant to original topic (it discusses practice of christianity by rugxulo as example), but is irrelevant to currently discussed dispute.
Your endless crap bible babel has destroy several threads. How about sticking to the topic for once.

Discussed topic (doctrine of christianity) is not out of original topic. It's just smaller part of original tom's topic. Just like your inquiry for rugxulo is only smaller part of topic (practice of single christian). "Biblical babel" is part of this thread's topic since first post, when tom mentioned it.

I absolutely agree Bible is for most part just ridiculous rant. But that doesn't change fact that great many people view it as something that dictates their life. Something that has control over millions of people is important, even if it is a ridiculous rant.

PS: Thanks for demonstrating your intelligence and not massaging your ego again by calling me "low IQ", "appearing to be not a thinking person" and "stupid" in single post, it really improved this topic, unlike my "out of topic" posts.
Post 04 Feb 2008, 01:32
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
fudder wrote:
Why would you support the Palestine terrorists? Wipe that scum clean off from the face of the earth.
Well, as I recall, our Danish ancestors, fudder, used to raise hell with the rest of the world. Didn't they do some serious military damage to England, France, etc, about 1500-1000 years ago?
Umm, why would you consider the Palestinians "terrorists"? Personally, I consider them, as well as the 17th, 18th, and 19th century American "Indians", freedom fighters of the highest grade.
Many MANY of the Palestinians are Muslims, but not all. A distinct minority, maybe 20-30% are Christians, and a comparable quantity are atheists. Among the Muslims, a fair number, including some of the Hamas, do not engage in terrorist tactics: killing and injuring ordinary civilians. There are not a few Palestinians who have been savaged, and yes, within that group there are "terrorists", fighting against judaism and christianity. Would you also destroy all of Ireland, because of some christian zealots bombing the London subways?
Post 04 Feb 2008, 02:41
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