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tom tobias



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tom tobias

KABUL: The death sentence [was] handed down to ... Sayed Parvez Kambakhsh, 23, a journalist..., and a student of Balkh University, ... for downloading from the Internet and distributing to classmates an article written by an Iranian scholar that contained anti-Islamic sentiments.

Everything about this case, from the fact that Mr. Kambakhsh was not the original author of the article he is said to have distributed, to the secret nature of the judicial proceedings without representation, to the unbelievably harsh sentence cry out that a gross miscarriage of justice has occurred. The case calls into serious question the progress that has been made in restoring Afghanistan to a nation that is guided by the rule of law.

http://almasakinnewsagency.blogspot.com/2008/01/afghan-journalist-sentened-to-death-for.html

Questions: (1) How many European Nations are currently fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? How many Europeans are dying to protect the people who ordered the death of this journalist?
(2) If THIS is the behaviour of the "GOOD GUYS", i.e. the one's wearing the white hats, Karzai's folks, sentencing someone to death for questioning Islam's tradition of allowing men four wives, but not permitting women to have four husbands, why are western societies wasting time, money and lives trying desperately to convince voters back home that Islam is deserving of anyone's support?
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity breed terrorism. There is no such thing as "radical islam". All three are "radical". All three are intolerant of non-believers. All three consider themselves in possession of THE TRUTH, and therefore, obliged to counsel those of us who are ignorant. When we reject this counseling, the reaction is to kill those of us who refuse to accept their doctrines. The "crime" committed by this young Afghan man, was to pose a question. What kind of society KILLS someone for inquiry? Answer: What do the Torah, Bible, and Koran all have in common--death to non-believers.
Crying or Very sad
Post 31 Jan 2008, 12:21
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The world is fucked up for sure but the reason is not religion, that is only the excuse. The reason is because of peoples intolerance.
tom tobias wrote:
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity breed terrorism.
Wrong, people incite (breed if you like) terrorism.
tom tobias wrote:
What do the Torah, Bible, and Koran all have in common--death to non-believers.
None of them say that. Some followers like to believe it and teach others about it but it is not so.
Post 31 Jan 2008, 13:10
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vid
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vid
Leviticus 24:16 wrote:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death


Deuteronomy 13:6-9 wrote:

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


Quran 4:89 wrote:

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them


Quran 9:5 wrote:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Those who kill are the real believers in these books. Fortunately, most people today decided not to be true believers and not to obey these barbaric parts.
Post 31 Jan 2008, 13:28
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revolution
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revolution
Okay, best ignore my last sentence above. But I still stand by my comment about it being the people that are to blame. It is still a persons choice if they choose to follow instructions to kill regardless of where it is written.
Post 31 Jan 2008, 14:06
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vid
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I agree with that. Unless, of course, following instructions has been indoctrinated into people in young age when they weren't able to pass proper judgement over it.
Post 31 Jan 2008, 15:01
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Quote:

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity breed terrorism. There is no such thing as "radical islam". All three are "radical".


Religions of all kinds are the enemy of the human future.


Last week the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, after being block aided by israel, blew wholes in the wall that imprisons them so they could get food and supplies from Egypt. It was reported here in New Zealand ( sadly, a christian based country Sad ) that militants had blown the wall down. The word terrorist was used in many reports describing the starving Palestinians. I watched as these militant terrorist passed through the created whole in their prison wall, many young kids holding their mothers hands and thought to myself what a sick fucked up country I live in. Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of the average NZer's and it really sickens me.

Lets all pass the good word that religion is the enemy of the human race's future.

SAY NO TO RELIGION!
Post 01 Feb 2008, 03:34
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Deuteronomy 5:17 wrote:

You shall not kill.


Luke 6:27 wrote:

"But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
...
Do to others as you would have them do to you. For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount. But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven."


Mark 10:17 wrote:

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.'" He replied and said to him, "Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth." Jesus, looking at him, loved him ....


Mark 12:28 wrote:

One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, "Which is the first of all the commandments?" Jesus replied, "The first is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." The scribe said to him, "Well said, teacher. You are right in saying, 'He is One and there is no other than he.' And 'to love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself' is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that (he) answered with understanding, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."


John 8:3 wrote:

Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more."


Matthew 9:13 wrote:

Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Post 01 Feb 2008, 21:30
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tom tobias



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Thank you rugxulo. I understand your point, that some, perhaps many, maybe MOST Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that it is WRONG to kill people. The point I sought to introduce on this FASM forum is however something quite different. This FASM forum could not exist in a Catholic, or Protestant, or Jewish, or Muslim state. Each of these groups of folks have a history, more than a thousand years, in some cases more than two thousand years, in the case of the Jews, maybe ten thousand years....A LONG TIME, a history of KILLING non-believers. It may or may not matter what one sect writes, or believes, the HISTORICAL EVIDENCE supports my allegation that this unfortunate student in Afghanistan represents the RULE, rather than the exception. Yes, rugxulo, you are right, MANY MANY Christians believe in love, trust, liberalism, etc, etc,,,. BUT, if the Vatican supports Hitler, (and it did), the jews will be rounded up and EXECUTED, brutally. When the Christians support the Jews, the Palestinians are bombed, murdered, bulldozed, tortured, and treated like the inhumans, which the jews at least, consider them to be. The Catholics, rugxulo, have a LONG, BLOODY history, not limited to the middle ages, my friend, no, EVEN in the 20th century, Catholics and Protestants in my ancestors' homeland, Ireland, killed, maimed, tortured, and terrorized innocent civilians, IN THE NAME OF THEIR particular brand of Christianity. I am sure that some Imam or Rabbi could ALSO find quotes, similar to those you have posted above, showing that "true believers" ought to "love thy neighbors", or "turn the other cheek", or whatever. These quotes do not confer legitimacy on several MILLENIA of torture and murder. This young man faces EXECUTION for the innocent, harmless, honest questioning of a FALSE doctrine: for religions are all false. They are NOT honest. They are all based NOT ON FACTUAL, REAL data, but on opinions, fantasies, myths, and oral traditions which have been transferred to paper by political forces, to compel uniformity of conduct. When someone like this student in Afghanistan challenges the veracity of these phony doctrines, you, and your Islamic, or Jewish, colleagues, leap up, and protest, no, no, WE DON'T execute folks for challenging our most sincere convictions. That's the problem rugxulo, ALL of these religions DO EXECUTE people for blasphemy, and that is what this thread is about, not whether or not one can find quotes opposing execution of blasphemers, but rather, whether or not IN HISTORY, including RECENT history, these three religions HAVE executed "traitors", "blasphemers", "non-believers"? Do you have some evidence to show that Catholicism, for example, since this is your favorite tradition, DID NOT FORMALLY endorse Hitler's "final solution"? I personally doubt that Hitler could have been elected Chancellor, without the ACTIVE support of the Catholics.
Confused
Post 02 Feb 2008, 00:42
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Quote:

Palestinians are bombed, murdered, bulldozed, tortured, and treated like inhumans


I mention these things to people in my country and they look at me as if I'm insane. They with their simple minds have been brainwashed by their christain/jewish teachings to believe the Palestinians are indeed sub human terrorists who deserve everything Israel dishes out to them.

Rugxulo, you're always the first to reject any thought that religion is the cause of many of the worlds suffering. Formally state your support for the Palestinian people, the very people who believe jesus had/has no divine (godly) power, had nothing to do with being "the father the son and the holy spirit", was in fact, just a normal human being.

I dare all here to formally state their objections to Israel's actions. I bet sod all of you will do it. The madness/hatred that is all religion is so deeply ingrained in all societies, I bet few even stop to consider just how evil it really is Sad
Post 02 Feb 2008, 04:45
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vid
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rugxulo: I never said that bible doesn't say not to kill. In fact, it tells both. In some places it commands to kill, in other places it commands not to kill. It's always on reader to select parts which he will obey (and thus decide to disobey other parts).

Fortunately, most christians today decided to ignore parts of bible which command to kill.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 11:06
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
It's like an uphill battle trying to convince you guys of anything. And, to be honest, I don't know jack about history, but I have heard that the Pope (and friends) hid many Jews during the war.

As far as Palestine is concerned, the Middle East is such a mess. A few years ago the media was bombarding us with more fight news (every freakin' day!) to the point where I got really mad and tired of hearing it so much. I am quite far removed from the Middle East, and I personally can do nothing for them. But if it tells you anything, I am indeed a fully-convinced, "converted" Catholic due to many recent graces in my life. Saying anything contrary to that would make me the biggest liar. The Middle East right now is fighting between Jews and Muslims, not Christians. All this talk about the "holy" land seems absurd to me because the people fighting are completely distanced from Jesus, aka "The Prince of Peace". So whatever, I hate violence, but obsessing over someone else's conflict can't help your own state in life. I suggest you not believe everything you hear, especially about the Catholic Church. (No offense, but I suspect your circles of influence are slightly biased against 'em. It does indeed make a difference who you hang out with and what opinions you listen to. Beware.)

EDIT: If my post above isn't enough to convince you of the "true" meaning of Christianity (as from Jesus' own mouth!), then nothing will. It's pretty explicit. Nowhere does He (aka, God) tell us to kill anyone. In fact, he healed people, and yet some of them killed Him (!). So surely Christianity (named after the Christ, aka the Messiah foretold, aka Jesus) is not what you think it is.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 17:01
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vid
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Quote:
And, to be honest, I don't know jack about history, but I have heard that the Pope (and friends) hid many Jews during the war.

well.. yeah, after church made it possible for fascism to spread by supporting it, it also did some good. But let's not forget that it was church which pushed fascism.

Compare pope's encyclical with mussolinni's description of fascism:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno_en.html

I just remind that "encyclical" is letter from pope that should be read to every single catholic in the world! This one was issued when fascism was emerging, after fascist state joined forces with church (Lateran Treaty)



If you don't have time to read all stuff, let me pick several passages:

Benito Mussolini wrote:

Given that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State.

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....


Pius XI wrote:
6. Those men were without question sincerely seeking an immediate remedy for this lamentable disorganization of States and a secure safeguard against worse dangers. Yet such is the weakness of even the best of human minds that, now rejected as dangerous innovators, now hindered in the good work by their very associates advocating other courses of action, and, uncertain in the face of various opinions, they were at a loss which way to turn.


Pius XI wrote:
5. With regard to civil authority, Leo XIII, boldly breaking through the confines imposed by Liberalism, fearlessly taught that government must not be thought a mere guardian of law and of good order, but rather must put forth every effort so that "through the entire scheme of laws and institutions . . . both public and individual well-being may develop spontaneously out of the very structure and administration of the State."[19] Just freedom of action must, of course, be left both to individual citizens and to families, yet only on condition that the common good be preserved and wrong to any individual be abolished. The function of the rulers of the State, moreover, is to watch over the community and its parts; but in protecting private individuals in their rights, chief consideration ought to be given to the weak and the poor. "For the nation, as it were, of the rich is guarded by its own defenses and is in less need of governmental protection, whereas the suffering multitude, without the means to protect itself relies especially on the protection of the State. Wherefore, since wageworkers are numbered among the great mass of the needy, the State must include them under its special care and foresight."[20]


likely refering to lateran treaty here:
Pius XI wrote:
28. A new branch of law, wholly unknown to the earlier time, has arisen from this continuous and unwearied labor to protect vigorously the sacred rights of the workers that flow from their dignity as men and as Christians. These laws undertake the protection of life, health, strength, family, homes, workshops, wages and labor hazards, in fine, everything which pertains to the condition of wage workers, with special concern for women and children


Pius XI wrote:
And while the principles of Liberalism were tottering, which had long prevented effective action by those governing the State, the Encyclical On the Condition of Workers in truth impelled peoples themselves to promote a social policy on truer grounds and with greater intensity, and so strongly encouraged good Catholics to furnish valuable help to heads of States in this field that they often stood forth as illustrious champions of this new policy even in legislatures. Sacred ministers of the Church, thoroughly imbued with Leo's teaching, have, in fact, often proposed to the votes of the peoples' representatives the very social legislation that has been enacted in recent years and have resolutely demanded and promoted its enforcement.


Quote:
49. It follows from what We have termed the individual and at the same time social character of ownership, that men must consider in this matter not only their own advantage but also the common good. To define these duties in detail when necessity requires and the natural law has not done so, is the function of those in charge of the State. Therefore, public authority, under the guiding light always of the natural and divine law, can determine more accurately upon consideration of the true requirements of the common good, what is permitted and what is not permitted to owners in the use of their property.


Do you see? It's the exact same thing preached by fascists and church. Much of WW2 blood is on christian hands.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 17:47
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:
Do you see? It's the exact same thing preached by fascists and church. Much of WW2 blood is on christian hands.


The Bible says, "We are all guilty." The one who is not is Jesus, who they crucified for no good reason. He was without sin and taught, cured, fed, etc. many people. In fact, He was the Messiah they had been waiting for (as was acknowledged by Peter and Christ Himself, even). Any blame you want to throw around to so-called "Christians" is either fair or unfair, but keep in mind: it is not Christ who is guilty.

My problem is that I keep thinking, "Surely he will listen" when that is impossible because you don't believe in God or the Word of God. But you do already know that murder is wrong. Dare I ask, but why would God create someone if He ultimately wanted them dead? He wouldn't.

In fact, God (and angels, saints, etc.) does not have the conflicted will of us fallen beings, so when He wants to do something, He does it immediately. There is no delay. (I'm paraphrasing here.) Therefore, if God wanted someone dead, they would be dead immediately. But He is indeed the "Father of Life", not death. Jesus rose from the dead because "death" could not hold Him. All life is in His hands.

Granted, sometimes (very rarely) wars are indeed justified, but there has to be a good chance of success, and it has to be unavoidable without causing more harm than it intends to solve. (Again, paraphrased.)

If you want to say that all men are guilty, that's true. But you must therefore feel compassion (and love) due to love of God and knowledge that we are all fallen (i.e. original sin corrupted us). Therefore, our nature is seriously confused, and we are massively ignorant, weak, and tempted/harassed by unseen forces of evil constantly. Pride is a dangerous thing (considering yourself better than others). The opposite of pride is the virtue of humility, i.e. accepting the truth about ourselves and our own weaknesses. We are to forgive others transgressions because we too make mistakes and need forgiveness.

And yet there is hope because we have many saints, angels, etc. praying for us. And God is acutely aware of everything (even the number of hairs on our head), so we shouldn't worry about anything being out of His control.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:01
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Wisdom 1:16, 2:12-24 wrote:

It was the wicked who with hands and words invited death, considered it a friend, and pined for it, and made a covenant with it, Because they deserve to be in its possession,
...
Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls' reward. For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:18
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vid
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rugxulo: basically, jesus's message was to stay peacuful. He didn't tell people to fight other, he was "only" promising great eternal tortures to everyone who will not heed him. BUT, he was also telling people to obey Old Testament law on many places, even though that is discouraged in today's church. And Old Testament commands to do lot of killing. So he was supporting law, which commanded killing.

As an experiment, let me pick few "different" Jesus citations:

Matthew 10:14-15 wrote:
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Mathew 10:34-37 wrote:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


Matthew 12:34 wrote:
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


Matthew 13:41-42 wrote:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 15:4 wrote:
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


Matthew 15:22-26 wrote:

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs


Mark 7:26-27 wrote:
The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.


Luke 11:23 wrote:
He that is not with me is against me


Like 12:51 wrote:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division


Like 22:36 wrote:
he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Last edited by vid on 02 Feb 2008, 18:42; edited 1 time in total
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:19
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Oops, sorry about the duplicate post(s), it was due to server errors. I deleted the last but you may have to remove the other.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:21
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vid
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vid
My point is that:
- Theoretical background of christianity is tainted: Jesus commands us to obey barbaric OT laws.
- Practice of christianity is even worse, with it's history of superstitious mob lynchings, corruption, opposition to science, fascism, etc...

So, where's the good part? Those few good things written in bible, which are greatly outweighted by bad ones? Sorry, that is very little.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:24
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
vid wrote:
rugxulo: basically, jesus's message was to stay peacuful. He didn't tell people to fight other, he was "only" promising great eternal tortures to everyone who will not heed him. BUT, he was also telling people to obey Old Testament law on many places, even though that is discouraged in today's church. And Old Testament commands to do lot of killing. So he was supporting law, which commanded killing.


No. Read my first post in this thread. It is beyond worrying about. Jesus explicitly tells us to love, saying there is nothing more important.

vid wrote:

As an experiment, let me pick few "different" Jesus citations:

Matthew 10:14-15 wrote:
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



I know we have discussed this before. Truly, they were not doing good but evil upon evil. And they did not repent, unlike Ninevah, and God punished them.

vid wrote:

Mathew 10:34-37 wrote:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.



Two people walk in darkness. One sees the light and accepts God, but the other refuses. Can they still be friends? Can they still carouse as if God did not exist? No. They are split up. They can no longer enjoy each other's company, they now have different preferences. If you accept God, you avoid evil, but if you reject Him, you welcome it.

vid wrote:

Matthew 15:4 wrote:
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.



This is the fuller quote:

Matthew 15:3-9 wrote:

He [Jesus] said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.' But you say, 'Whoever says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God," need not honor his father.' You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said:
'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me;
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.'"


In other words, they (the Pharisees and scribes) were defrauding their parents and not supporting them in their old age, using religion as their pretext for behaving badly. Therefore, they were breaking the commandment. But nevertheless, here they are (still alive!), given a chance to repent and turn away from evil and do what is right. God did not immediately kill them. In fact, they got mad at their rebuke instead of acknowledging their mistakes and accepting the truth.

vid wrote:

Matthew 15:22-26 wrote:

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs



You forgot the ending, the most important part!

Matthew 15:26-8 wrote:

He said in reply, "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters." Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour.


He wanted to see her faith.

vid wrote:

Luke 11:23 wrote:
He that is not with me is against me


But it also says this (probably clearer):

Mark 9:38-41 wrote:

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us." Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:40
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Bah, server errors, I don't think it likes us writing at the same time. Wink

Just delete the first duplicate post (since the second has an extra link and other minor corrections).
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:49
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
No. Read my first post in this thread. It is beyond worrying about. Jesus explicitly tells us to love, saying there is nothing more important.

Bible isn't clear on many subjects, and often contradictory. But there are indeed many passages which say OT still applies (and many which say they don't)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

Don't take those quotations too seriously, i just wanted to demonstrate what can one do with quotes. I explained that jesus's message was mostly to stay peaceful, but wanted to show it was not so clean & nice as often portrayed.

Quote:
Two people walk in darkness. One sees the light and accepts God, but the other refuses. Can they still be friends? Can they still carouse as if God did not exist? No. They are split up. They can no longer enjoy each other's company, they now have different preferences. If you accept God, you avoid evil, but if you reject Him, you welcome it.

I hope you didn't mean this seriously. Can't you be friend with non-christian?

Quote:
but if you reject Him, you welcome it.

Are you saying that all non-christians ("those which reject Jesus") are evil ("welcome evil")? Do you think that I (as atheist) am evil?

Quote:
He wanted to see her faith.

Isn't Jesus according to today's theology supposed to know everything?
Post 02 Feb 2008, 18:51
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