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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
fudder wrote:
...And why the hell a Pentium D CPU?

In the dark, with your eyes closed, they all feel the same....
Very Happy
Post 20 Jan 2008, 14:31
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
Tom, even in the low end you can get motherboards with Intel chipset... stay away from VIA and SIS like the plague. And I dunno about high end, there's pretty cheap core2 CPUs out there, not much more expensive than Pentium D.

And certainly a lot faster and less power consuming.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 14:35
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Tomasz Grysztar
f0dder wrote:
And certainly a lot faster and less power consuming.

Do they also have more silent fans, then?
Post 20 Jan 2008, 14:46
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
fudder wrote:
there's pretty cheap core2 CPUs out there, not much more expensive than Pentium D.
Well, I am a little behind the times, as Tomasz can verify, since the last motherboard/cpu I gave him, many years ago, now, was a socket 370 Biostar, running at 1.4 ghz, and my identical twin here in USA is not only still operating, it is providing the marvelous organ music from Ton Koopman, and the Amsterdam Baroque, heard on the internet radio station,
http://www.avro.nl/web/avro%5Fklassiek/
even as I write this....
http://www.tonkoopman.nl/
Umm, I thought, in ignorance, I confess, that Pentium D was a dual core cpu....
http://www.starmicro.net/ShoppingCart.aspx
you will note the price: $32.00
Is "virtualization" some type of older, or newer perhaps, compatibililty issue involving the earlier AMD cpu's? I haven't kept up....Sorry to be so out of date. Where's my drool cup?
Confused
Post 20 Jan 2008, 14:50
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Tomasz wrote:
Do they also have more silent fans, then?
Forget the Intel cpu fans, they are unacceptably noisy. If you like music, as I do, the computer must be SILENT, producing not more than 20db of sound. Intel's noisy fans produce about 45db!!!!
I get all my fans as standard 80 mm 20db fans with max speed about 1400 Hz. Here's a good source:
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=62
I use them for case cooling, cpu cooling, and power supply cooling.
Smile
Post 20 Jan 2008, 14:55
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Depends on the model, really. The stock intel CPU coolers these days tend to be pretty nice and don't make much noise, but one I got for a celeron was extremely noisy - might have been a motherboard issue though, the fan ran at max RPM all the time, instead of adapting to heat as it's supposed to.

But sure thing, it doesn't hurt getting a a big-ass cooling block or radiator, so you can run with a even more quiet fan Smile

tom, "virtualization" aka VMX aka pacifica/vanderpool is hardware assisted, well, cpu virtualization, like what vmware, virtualpc etc. does. And Tomasz needs that :]

Oh, and I guess $32 is hard to beat, but I wouldn't get a PentiumD unless I was broke and desperate Smile
Post 20 Jan 2008, 15:01
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
fudder wrote:
But sure thing, it doesn't hurt getting a a big-ass cooling block or radiator, so you can run with a even more quiet fan ...
Um, well, with that newer technology, you described, i.e. 45nm, I suppose that the big 12u Cooler from that Austrian company would do the trick with NO FAN. However, I have tested some fans that ran about 800Hz, and to my (now, nearly deaf) ears, they were essentially noise free (<15 db).
I need to read more about "VMX", since I don't understand why it is useful, or necessary. The price of the LEAST expensive E6xxx is $135.
http://www.stalliontek.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CPC2D%2DE6300OEM
To my penny wise, and pound foolish mentality, that seems to be FIVE TIMES more expensive than the "D". What are the advantages of the E6xxx, compared with the 64 bit D? Smaller die? less heat? faster? more cache? all of the above?
How does "VMX" help someone?
I normally purchase a cpu AFTER it has come and gone in the popularity parade, so that the price descends to a more reasonable level. Here's then my question: If I purchase a "D", and run it in one computer, and an E6xxx in another, and run them both under the same conditions/time, etc, side by side, will the E6xxx last five times longer than the "D"? If it is now 2014, which one of the two machines will my attendant in the nursing home be using to send a message to you? My point is this: five years from now, BOTH the "D" and the E6xxx will be absolutely obsolete. I remember when the 1.4 ghz Tualatin cpu first came out, (that's the cpu in our twin Biostar motherboards)--oh, what a lot of brouhaha there was about this great cpu, that was so much faster than the old 1 ghz. A couple of years later, when I bought them, the prices had descended to about $50. Paying today, six years later, $32 for a cpu that is at least five times faster than the Tualatin, seems to me quite a bargain. What will anyone use VMX for?
Post 20 Jan 2008, 15:29
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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Location: Denmark
f0dder
Pretty amazing you can get PentiumD processors so cheap.

Advantages of core2 include a larger instruction set - I know you're personally against that, but some people like SSE instructions Smile, and core2 goes up to SSE4 iirc.

The smaller die resulting from 45nm fabrication process means less power consumption and heat. The core2 architecture is quite faster per MHz than the older PentiumD, and has a better memory system and cache architecture as well.

Doesn't make much difference if you're going for "office use", but then you can get one of the smaller core2 CPUs - check the price of E4xxx. And if you don't need dualcore and super speed, check out the current celeron generation (from the Conroe family), those are core2 celerons.

As for VMX, it can be used for some very nice system security, and if you need to run multiple operating systems at once.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 16:47
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
Thank you fudder, well done, as usual. Umm, do you have a reference to this capability, which explains why one would need to run two operating systems at once on the same cpu? I have four computers running as we speak, four different operating systems, Linux, Win98, XP, and SOL, but, I have them running on four different computers and use a 4 way kvm switch to choose between them. I don't quite understand what advantage, apart from operating costs, one gains from running four operating systems on the same cpu....The price of the cpu, in my opinion, does not provide sufficient economic justification, compared with using four OLD computers running concurrently. I have three computers running a socket 370 computer: two with a 1 gHz cpu, one with a 1.4 gHz cpu, and one with a socket 775 3 gHz Pentium D. I think all four would cost less than the price of the cpu alone, for the "advantage" of having VMX....
As far as security goes, two of the four are not connected to the internet right now, so what need have I for protection against hijacking on those two systems?
If we recall the origin of this thread, there was a question of how to proceed to evaluate the state of the power supply, motherboard, cpu, etc, I think someone even suggested that perhaps the memory was bad?? but in any event, there was a problem, the computer stopped working, and then the question was, how to proceed both to assess the current status of various components, but also to repair same, so that the operation of the computer could resume....
Well, in my opinion, it is much wiser to have SEVERAL computers available, so that when a problem arises, one can swap parts until the diagnosis is clear, and then simply replace the defective part. The problem with paying a premium for the best available hardware, is that then one is hamstrung, upon encountering a situation such as that which provided the impetus for this thread in the first place. A look at these five benchmarks may help illustrate my perspective:
reference = tom's hardware
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html
http://www.pricewatch.com/
test................P4-520...Pressler920...Allendale E6300...Conroe E6850
Price ($):..........63......(p925)..32........135..............278
Quake IV:.........47.................64.........83...............128
PcMark2005:...3549............4681.......4794............7677
Sisoft memoy:.4434...........4963.......5349.............6362
WinRAR:...........350............246.........231...............148
Pinnac MPEG-2:.155.............125........104.................87

These test results convince me that the price performance ratio does not justify purchasing anything EXCEPT the Pentium D, at this time. Further, if one purchases at least two (or even three) complete systems (1 gbyte of DDR-II RAM costs $11, and the motherboard of choice, in my opinion is this one:Biostar P4M890-M7 SE Core 2 Duo Socket 775 VIA P4M890 Chipset 1066FSB DDR2-533 PCI.e Motherboard ,which has built in graphics, so no need for a separate vga card....cost: $48:
http://www.bzboyz.com/Recommend.asp?Qty=1&ProdID=5412&imageField2.x=32&imageField2.y=8
Yes, fudder is correct, the chip set is made by VIA, same outfit that made those socket 370 boards, which I purchased 9 years ago, two of which I am still using, today.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 18:05
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
i think, tomasz need the last technology, to test the compiled instructions, how can he be sure the last fasm version eficiently support the last instructions sets?

pentium D is old.

the best is to have a 4 core µP, or better, cause he can test the result of multiprossessor asm programming with his computer.

and he will have a good machine, and then, he can play with recent games and play with PS3 emulator, if it exists...

about the noise of the ventirad, some brands make their product better than everyothers. like scythe infinity model, this model is the best of the last summer (2007)

about a cheap PC, for replacement and fixing, VIA launch a low cost notebook, usefull for a little server, and very cheap..200E, i don't find the link Sad
Post 20 Jan 2008, 18:17
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
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LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

1 gbyte of DDR-II RAM costs $11

what?!?!?!?

I'm now more sad than usual of where I live Sad
Post 20 Jan 2008, 18:22
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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Location: usa
tom tobias
Post 20 Jan 2008, 18:35
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Christ, that's insanely low prices!

I'm going for DDR2-800 personally for my next machine, though, otherwise memory would be too much of a bottleneck. I think I can get away with 800MHz memory when running it dual-channel, since it should effectively give ~1600MHz, and the CPU FSB is 1333MHz. I just hope dual-channeling works well Smile

As for running multiple OSes on one box, the lower power consumption is one advantage, and easy management is another (vmware disk snapshots are wonderful). It's also a lot easier to migrate a vm disk image than doing it real hardware, because you don't have to worry about drivers etc...

Virtual machine testing isn't a 100% substitute for real hardware, but it's very nice stuff nonetheless.

As for security, VM encapsulating lets you do interesting stuff, both monitoring as well as preventing various attacks. Using the VMX instruction set also makes it possible to develop very hardcore debugging tools, sort of like good old SoftICE on speed. You'll see, eventually Wink
Post 20 Jan 2008, 18:57
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Well, I'm surprised, seems that I can get one by US$ 30 here. Now US$ 16 * 3 = 48 pesos, but US$ 30 is 90 pesos and spending 90 pesos hurts us in the same way that hurts you spending US$ 90 (and maybe more).

PS: Actually one US dolar costs sightly more than 3 pesos so the memory costs almost 100 pesos. http://www.dolaronline.com/
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:00
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7714
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Or perhaps, that the machine broke just while I was implementing the SSE4 support into fasm (somewhere in the middle of work, in fact), was a sign that I should get myself machine that supports SSE4? Wink
Well, I don't think so, those CPUs are way too new and too expensive. In addition, they still only have SSE4.1 implemented, SSE4.2 planned no sooner than summer 2008.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:06
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
fudder wrote:
...Using the VMX instruction set ...
ahh. I missed that part of the explanation. Sorry.
So, the plot thickens.
soon, if I have understood, there will be two kinds of capabilities: those who have the Intel VMX instructions, and those of us peons, who do not. Yes, I am living in the bygone era of horsedriven carriages. Where is my buggy whip? Time to go feed some alfalfa to my nag....
Rolling Eyes


Last edited by tom tobias on 20 Jan 2008, 19:31; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:07
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
Hehe Smile

Well, most people won't need the VMX instruction set (yet). Vmware, VirtualPC et cetera all still work with software emulation as well. Also, it has yet to be determined whether VMX speeds up the virtualization, the so-called experts don't agree, and they of course have various $$$ interests.

That being said, it is a very capable and interesting instruction set, and can be used for much good. But also for bad! - if you have a CPU with VMX (also called Pacifica on AMD or Vanderpool on intel) but aren't running a hypervisor, turn off VMX capabilities in the BIOS to avoid some very nasty rootkit attack vectors.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:09
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200611/000020061106A0395214.php
Trying to answer my own question.
5 times faster than quicksort (which is the fastest sort algorithm, for which I ever wrote a program--in C, a long time ago!!!-- about the time of kerosene lanterns.) Smile
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:14
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-06/BH-US-06-Zovi.pdf
Was that Madis, or you, fudder, who was talking about Blackhat last summer in Brno? No wonder I could not understand anything. Here I was blaming myself for being senile, nonsense, I am just ignorant, not ...ok, well, maybe a tad senile too....
Brno! Ah, good beer. Say, whatever happened, speaking of black hats, and beautiful black t-shirts, to my DVD copy of the meeting??? Wasn't, oh yeah, I remember now, it is starting to seep into my alcholic stupor, HyperVista was going to send me some kind of DVD, one day, soon.....
Hmm.
???
Confused
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:22
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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Location: Denmark
f0dder
Hm, the VMX instruction set mentioned in the sciencelink article is something completely different, sounds like it's SIMD stuff for PowerPC, what we're using is Virtualization for x86 Smile

Get the intel system programming PDFs if you want to read about VMX.
Post 20 Jan 2008, 19:32
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