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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
tom wrote:

I met a fellow last week, who was using a portable computer, and he asked me for a bit of assistance, and I was surprised that his computer was still employing DOUBLE click to access an application. Wow. That goes back thirty years, to the days when the original mouse had but one button. Problem: he did not know how to enable single clicking. He was very grateful when I changed it for him


Clearly tom you have limited skills on windows as doing what you have done has doomed this guy to never really learning the power of window's drag and drop. Linux is slowly getting there too but it frustrates me often when doing drag and drop and having a message saying I do not have permission to do such things ..... "IT'S MY FIGGON COMPUTER YOU USELESS PIECE OF CRAP OS, IF I WANT TO DO THIS, JUST BLOODY WELL LET ME OR I'LL GO BACK TO WINDOWS" ...... and sadly that's what occurred Sad


BTW, I was writing OLEDB/ISAPI dll's more than ten years ago and still linux can't compete with speed. Even with the most complex stored procedure, SQLSever with IIS rips and I'm not even using IIS7 which I've heard is faster because $MS has moved some of IIS code into kernel mode.

Postresql server is good on linux but it runs fine on windows as well so really in the end I think those who state linux is for work and windows is for play, probably don't realise that both windows and linux are complete nonsense Smile
Post 08 Feb 2008, 00:43
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Quote:
Linux is slowly getting there too but it frustrates me often when doing drag and drop and having a message saying I do not have permission to do such things ..... "IT'S MY FIGGON COMPUTER YOU USELESS PIECE OF CRAP OS, IF I WANT TO DO THIS, JUST BLOODY WELL LET ME OR I'LL GO BACK TO WINDOWS" ...... and sadly that's what occurred Sad
Clearly Michael you have limited skills on Linux or you would have installed the programs properly or changed permissions so that would not have happened. Windows is slowly getting there but it frustrates me when someone calls me on the phone today and says Windows won't let him play the game he just installed because he doesn't have admin privileges.

And I'm not a Linux user.


Last edited by drhowarddrfine on 08 Feb 2008, 16:28; edited 1 time in total
Post 08 Feb 2008, 03:40
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
From the TrustedBSD website which created ACL for FreeBSD:
Quote:
TrustedBSD provides a file system access control list implementation that provides enhanced discretionary access control as required by the CC CAPP specification at higher assurance levels. This implementation is based on the POSIX.1eD17 draft specification, and is API-compatible with the ACL implementations found on many other UNIX systems. The TrustedBSD implementation stores access control lists in file system extended attributes, as found in the UFS1 and UFS2 file systems on FreeBSD. The TrustedBSD POSIX.1e ACL library may also found in Mac OS X, although wrapping NTFS-style ACLs, and portions of the ACL library documentation may be found in Linux. TrustedBSD ACLs are present in FreeBSD 5.0 and greater, and are supported by Samba, KDE, and a number of other applications.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 03:55
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
drhowarddrfine wrote:

Michael you have limited skills on Linux or you would have installed the programs properly or changed permissions so that would not have happened.



Message - "You do not have the required permission to change permissions" DOH Sad

Actually I have limited skills on pretty much everything, just ask my wife, she'll agree Wink
Post 08 Feb 2008, 04:36
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
drhowarddrfine: that blurb didn't really answer my question - all it shows is that the technology is there, but it doesn't really say at which level. If the ACLs aren't kernel-enforced, they're next to useless.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 12:06
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
fudder wrote:
....NT has had ACLs since just when? (didn't use NT before NT4, but I'd guess ACLs have been there since the start). Yeah sure, probably came from VMS, but think is that neither BSD nor Linux had ACLs from the beginning,....
....
If the ACLs aren't kernel-enforced, they're next to useless.
Well, I admit, I ignored the first few mentions of ACL, since (in my profound ignorance, I still think of ACL as referring to the Anterior Collateral Ligament of the knee) I was unaware of the other meaning of this acronym: Access Control List. So, now that I have a slightly better understanding of what fudder means, I can ask this question:
Why is an access control list, ACL, "next to useless" if the list is not "kernel-enforced"? Alternatively, how does possession of the character of enforcement by the kernel offer utility to a list, any list? Why must a "kernel" "enforce" a list, i.e. (I suppose) ensure some sort of correspondence between the current user and this magic list....? It seems to me, (obviously completely ignorant here), that this sort of thinking is made to order for assault by evil forces. Why not simply grant anyone access to their own computer? Why bother to place a huge bookkeeping chore into the KERNEL of all places, where it MUST by definition, SLOW DOWN THE SYSTEM, checking constantly whether or not I have permission to access some process or other. What silliness. This is precisely why I detest both UNIX and M$. This entire business of authorizing a user to complete some chore is based upon 1950's era thinking, when access to a single cpu required sharing of resources, obligatorily. Street Cars, Trolleys, Buses, Subways, Trains, and Airplanes (all transporting MANY people to a common, fixed destination) all have different requirements than do automobiles. Should one nevertheless insist upon putting into each vehicle the same engine? I don't believe that ACL's offer ANY benefit to a single user desktop environment.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 12:34
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
tom tobias wrote:
Why not simply grant anyone access to their own computer?

There's a lot of very good reasons.

Firstly, as a regular user (and even power user), you don't need full control of your computer. So, for security reasons, you drop a lot of privileges when logged in as a regular user, so you can't accidentally wipe out your operating system.

It also helps against malware, since limited user account simply aren't allowed to fuck around with operating system files.

Then there's also the issue of multi-account computers, or multiple users on a corporate network. But you see a lot of multi-account computers in regular homes, and even though both my brothers have their own machines, they have accounts on eachothers'. Separate accounts + ACLs mean they can't wipe eachothers' files when they throw a hissy teenage fit.

tom tobias wrote:
Why bother to place a huge bookkeeping chore into the KERNEL of all places, where it MUST by definition, SLOW DOWN THE SYSTEM, checking constantly whether or not I have permission to access some process or other.

Because the KERNEL, by definition, is the only authority (with current OS designs) that can enforce protection. It's no good implementing ACL checks in libc, or just in samba, or whatever. And with proper filesystem caching (to cache FS metadata) and a few optimizations, it's not like you can feel or measure a slowdown.

tom tobias wrote:
What silliness. This is precisely why I detest both UNIX and M$. This entire business of authorizing a user to complete some chore is based upon 1950's era thinking, when access to a single cpu required sharing of resources, obligatorily. Street Cars, Trolleys, Buses, Subways, Trains, and Airplanes (all transporting MANY people to a common, fixed destination) all have different requirements than do automobiles. Should one nevertheless insist upon putting into each vehicle the same engine? I don't believe that ACL's offer ANY benefit

That's simply because you can't look beyond your own nose, then.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 12:50
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
tom tobias: I'm sure you like your system to run nicely without random crashes and other nasty things causing upsets. So this is where ACL's help keep the system stable. A normal user running normal programs with normal bugs does not expect a simple app crash to trash the whole OS, the user expects the OS to keep running and just quietly close the app without any fuss. With ACL's it, theoretically (if done right), is impossible for any app to do nasty things even if it is deliberately trying.

Only when you allow full access, as administrator, should you be at a level where you can, if you desire, trash the OS (or anything on the system).

In my office I would hate to think the cleaner can just come along and put in her USB drive and kiil the computer with who knows what programs/viruses/*wares. With ACL's I can give her access to use some functions but she cannot mess it up by accident or on purpose.

Hence the reason for different levels of access.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 12:58
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Heck, even when logged in as administrator, you shouldn't have full ACL rights - but you should have the ability to grant them to yourself.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:02
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
fudder wrote:
...That's simply because you can't look beyond your own nose, then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac
fudder wrote:
...you don't need full control of your computer....

OOPS, I detect a bigggg hissy fit coming.
I could not disagree more with this philosophy. I am simply too much immersed in the Norseman-AngloSaxon (pagan) culture, and insufficiently educated in the aristocratic European (judeo-christian) tradition to accept ANY limitation on what I can, or can not do, to, and with, my computers. I bought them, I assembled them, and I want them to function in accord with my wishes, not as Bill or Linus (or fudder!!!) wants.
fudder wrote:
...so you can't accidentally wipe out your operating system. ...
Rubbish. What have you been snorting, friend? In FORTY YEARS of mistreating programmable calculating machines of various flavors, types, and statures, I have NEVER, not even ONE TIME, inadvertantly destroyed my operating system. I have destroyed, by accident, power supplies, cpu's, motherboards, mice, monitors, video cards, and countless homemade interface cards, through inattention to detail, or failing to properly ground myself, or transporting too much static, or etc, etc, but I have NEVER lost an OS to having too much authority, del *.*, nope, never did it. rm-r nope, never did it either.
fudder wrote:
...It [restriction on user capabilities] also helps against malware, ...
Hmm. well, you may be right. I may be wrong. I am judging by my singular lack of success preventing malware from invading my system, despite running AVG and Lavasoft AdAware daily. I need to rebuild the whole system about once every ten days....This is with XP, and I have so little control over XP, that I can not even purge the unwanted directories from my Programs folder, directories like:
Messenger
Movie Maker
MSN Gaming Zone
NetMeeting
Confused
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:21
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
revolution wrote:
...With ACL's I can give her [the cleaning lady, aka putzfrau] access to use some functions but she cannot mess it up by accident or on purpose.
Are we really supposed to all accept a limitation on what we can or cannot do with our computers because you want to share your computer with the cleaning lady? That's (to my way of thinking) what public libraries are for, not your private office!!! So, fine, put ACL's onto your computer, and on to the public library computers, but NOT MY MACHINES, because I don't have sufficient money to hire a cleaning lady, and with my long nose, I kind of enjoy wallowing in the sediment:
http://www.mediastorehouse.com/pictures_640545/Pig-Wallowing.html
http://www.dreamstime.com/sow-wallowing-image846965
Smile
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:34
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
tom tobias wrote:
I bought them, I assembled them, and I want them to function in accord with my wishes, not as Bill or Linus (or fudder!!!) wants.

That doesn't mean you have to run as root/admin all the time, or run all your code in ring 0, as long as you have the option of doing so, which you have with existing systems. There's no reason to run with full privileges all the time, but several reasons not to.

tom tobias wrote:
but I have NEVER lost an OS to having too much authority, del *.*, nope, never did it. rm-r nope, never did it either.

All this world isn't about you, though. It's pretty easy to make serious mistakes with mouse drag-and-drop, or fuck up programatically. With proper ACLs, you can't take off your foot by accident, but you can still escalate your privileges if you really need to. Win-win situation.

tom tobias wrote:
Hmm. well, you may be right. I may be wrong. I am judging by my singular lack of success preventing malware from invading my system, despite running AVG and Lavasoft AdAware daily. I need to rebuild the whole system about once every ten days....

Let me guess, your prime account on the system is an Administrator account and not a Limited User, and you're one of those people that don't want to install service pack 2, aren't behind a NATing router, and thus get malware-infected automagically?

tom tobias wrote:
I have so little control over XP, that I can not even purge the unwanted directories from my Programs folder, directories like:
Messenger
Movie Maker
MSN Gaming Zone
NetMeeting

Yeah, it's a bit silly that thos components are under SFC. But SFC in it's whole is a good thing for most users.

And do keep the most users part in mind, because the masses is what you design for, not the individual.

tom tobias wrote:
Are we really supposed to all accept a limitation on what we can or cannot do with our computers because you want to share your computer with the cleaning lady?

As long as you have administrative rights (ie., it's your own bloody computer and not locked down on a corporate network), you can escalate your privileges when bloody necessary. Win-win situation.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:43
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Raedwulf



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: United Kingdom
Raedwulf
I run windows xp, and I hardly get any malware.... I don't have an antivirus running, nor a firewall (I have a NAT router) Razz
Yea admittedly if someone decided to attack my computer it probably would be quite easy once pass the router. However, if they got past the router, I would think that they were competent enough to beat any defense I put up on the system anyway.

The only time i get malware is when my sister or father gets on my PC... (Thankfully I almost never let them). Apart from that, it works fine for me.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 13:51
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
f0dder wrote:
drhowarddrfine: that blurb didn't really answer my question - all it shows is that the technology is there, but it doesn't really say at which level. If the ACLs aren't kernel-enforced, they're next to useless.
ACL is built into the kernel.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 16:30
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Raedwulf wrote:

The only time i get malware is when my sister or father gets on my PC...
Well, there ya go. You proved the point.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 16:32
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
my brother too pollute my system, the big problme is to tell it to whithout fighting.
he is really dumb, and believes is his intelligent. there is no days without shout or clash. i become crazy...
he constantly shout on me, saying:
ferme ta gueule tapette, vas te faire foutre, espece de gamin, espece de lopette, je vais te mettre ma main dans ta gueule, etc...
some words that gives me murder ideas. one days, i'll fight him, and he will go to hospital.
and he always let enter virus on my PCs.

i dislike peoples like him.
really dislike. want to kill them. i cannot code if he is there. impossible, he constantly says that it shit, that i'm shit, and i don't fight him, can anybody tell me what to do to stop it?

edit:
sorry for offtopic, but i'm really stressed by this asshole.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 16:41
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2915
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
Sounds like your brother is trying to provoke you. Don't give in. Instead explain to your brother in great detail how it makes you feel - NOT the anger - anger is secondary and you must not give in to it (this is what prevents your coding). Tell him about the hurt, the pain that you feel deep inside - how someone so close to you crushes your every desire and you are powerless because he is your blood.

If you can't hold back the anger then you need a third party - family counselor. You will have no peace until you confront him, and anger will only escalate into violence (as you already know). Please, do this - I have a brother, too. Smile
Post 08 Feb 2008, 17:20
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2915
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
No one uses my laptop besides me and last virus that I couldn't fix was in 1994.

...and then there is the 'other' computer - general use for family and guests. This system is constantly in need of help. No matter what I do malware gets on it. Granted, I haven't started blocking websites - I want it open for people to use freely. I've tried all manner of windows from '95 to 2003; resticted accounts; anti-virus; etc... nothing works.

So, installed Ubuntu about a month ago and we'll see how that goes. It was tricky to install some of my hardware (ATI), but all-in-all a simple thing. Biggest problem thus far is daughter complaining about not having her iPod trashware from Apple.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 17:40
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2915
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
I'm kind of in agreement with tom on the whole permission arguement. Instead designs should be geared towards fault tolerant recovery - putting up barriers is so lame. Shit happens permissions or not.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 18:34
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
But more shit happens if you don't set permissions up. Like...Windows.
Post 08 Feb 2008, 21:09
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