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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
just imagine...
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1492, colomb "discover" america... end of middle age, begin of rebirth...
1789, la revolution fran├žaise, "power" to the people...
1914-1918, WW1, supposed to be short, 4 years of constant battle...
1939-1945, WW2, first "hardcore" war, the USA "save" the world...
now... what is comming?? aparently, we are in a good time of peace, but only seems to be...
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money, big money problems, work, big work problem, society, big society problems.

internet is only a valve, something to contain the rage of people.
entertainment race... who is the best to entertain people?
government, the big game of the "vote", the elections race, and ones the race is finished, the fist fucking of the people...
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i am affraid, very affraid..
my fear is, what appends?
what will come?

in france, the situation is the same as in all other "developed countries, people is blinded by customising, buy, sell, but never give...
where goes the world?
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Post 20 Dec 2007, 16:59
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
1939-1945, WW2, first "hardcore" war, the USA "save" the world...

That's what they told you in school? USSR "saved the world" if you wish. 3/4 of wehrmacht was destroyed by Red Army, and defeat of Nazis already was inevitable before USA even entered the war. Not that I diminish all sacriface done by USA soldiers, they are all heroes just like everyone else, but it wasn't USA that defeated Nazis. USA was one of nations that helped to finish off Nazis, after USSR practically defeated them. Note that USSR was also in war with Japan 3 years before Pearl Harbor, and it held off Japanese too.

In other hand, in 30s, western powers (USA especially) let Hitler freely grow big, hoping he will turn against communists and not against them. Without General Motors, Nazis wouldn't have logistics to start the war, and without IBM he couldn't exterminate Jews so effectively.

If western allies wouldn't let hitler to break Treaty of Saint-Germain during Munich Conference, and occupy Czechoslovakia politically, there probably wouldn't be any WW2. Czech - German border was exceptionally well fortified (arguably best in Europe that time), and it is rumored that Hitler himself said he didn't have power to take over it, by that time. However western powers broke treaty with Czechoslovakia and disagreed to help it protect itself, so Czechoslovakia remained alone encircled by fascist Germany, Austria and Hungary, so Czechoslovakia capitulated to Hitler's demands. Crying or Very sad
Post 20 Dec 2007, 17:26
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
yes, you well know the exact history, wikipedia is a good reference, but, the mind, the own reflexion, the brain is not only a recorder, putting exact fact in your head is not the only way to know the things.
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what to do if the world is different? learn everthing again?
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the world goes like it is, facts are mechanical, one string of linked events...

studing the exact facts help to don't make judgement errors...
but the feeling, this feeling of injustice, of pity, i didn't find it in wikipedia ....
Image sorry..
Post 20 Dec 2007, 18:29
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
but the feeling, this feeling of injustice, of pity, i didn't find it in wikipedia ....

I cannot but agree with this, world is very fucked up.

Misrepresenting history is one of those really fucked up things, that's why i got so raged about it.
Post 20 Dec 2007, 18:45
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
me too i'm raged by misrepresentation of real facts...

it's an insult to all the ancestors and present people that suffer...
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i'm not one of this guys...
i know history... i make some mistakes in my statements but i know what i have in mind...
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Post 20 Dec 2007, 19:07
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roboman



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 122
Location: USA
roboman
vid wrote:
...WW2... the USA "save" the world...

Naw, just a lot of people in the US who like to put it in the face of a lot of western europe that they had made a mess of things and ended up with Germany marching across / blowing up their countries and called the US asking for help in the mess they had made, twice.

vid wrote:
3/4 of wehrmacht was destroyed by Red Army, and defeat of Nazis already was inevitable before USA even entered the war. Not that I diminish all sacriface done by USA soldiers, they are all heroes just like everyone else, but it wasn't USA that defeated Nazis. USA was one of nations that helped to finish off Nazis, after USSR practically defeated them. Note that USSR was also in war with Japan 3 years before Pearl Harbor, and it held off Japanese too.


Actually I did learn in school that most of the german army was destroyed by the red army, just as most of the red army had been destroyed by the german army. They were both the big loosers in people and all the things that make life livable. The two front war made things much harder on germany, but yes the ussr got the worst of the fighting and that is what I was told in a US school. In school they did say Japan wiped out the red navy as fast as they had most of the US navy, took some islands and wanted little else from the ussr, other then to keep them from building more boats. You are half right about the US companies during WWII, there were also massive shipments of goods to the other sides. The ussr was being shipped food, motors and other manufactured things as fast as they could be made until near the end of the war.

Some one should have stopped hitler? Who? The US, who was basically just about broke and had almost no military at he start of the war? Europe where they had money problems of there own and people who were unwilling to let the government get involved in military actions? Few in Germany were doing much of any thing. None of the countries right next door were doing any thing... When is action proper, was it ok with Sadam? Would he have been another Hitler with oil money? It's a never ending string of questions and seldom does any one come out with their hands totally clean.

Back to working at some useful coding...
Post 21 Dec 2007, 05:03
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
Ah, the great "What if...?" questions. Truth is, some things cannot be known because they didn't happen. That's why "What if...?" books bring in lots of money.
Post 21 Dec 2007, 11:24
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
Actually I did learn in school that most of the german army was destroyed by the red army, just as most of the red army had been destroyed by the german army. They were both the big loosers in people and all the things that make life livable.

yep... but someone had to take those sacrifaces, otherwise Cold War will be much more "interesting" with militant fascists instead of mostly peaceful communists. We all can but thanks russians for what they did.

Quote:
The two front war made things much harder on germany

Two front war started AFTER tides of battle turned, and AFTER it was clear Nazis will be defeated. And if you read some historical accounts of Hitler's war plans, he didn't care much about western front. Even though it advanced as quick as eastern front, he often relocated armies from west to east, and he always viewed eastern front as the real playground.

Quote:
Some one should have stopped hitler? Who? The US, who was basically just about broke and had almost no military at he start of the war?

US could have easily stopped hitler from beginning, he was dependant on cargo from US. Of course, that would mean someone would loose profit, and US would loose strong frontier for communism. Also "fundamentalist" part of US was quite sympathic for ideas of fascism: strong family, commitment to state, racial things (hatred against black people, antisemitism), state-pushed christianity, no liberalism, economical corporatism....

Before start of war, US didn't have any motivation to stop hitler, even though it in my opinion did have power to stop him.

Quote:
Europe where they had money problems of there own and people who were unwilling to let the government get involved in military actions?

Yeah, western european powers didn't want to get involved with Hitler, because they felt they are weaker (that wasn't truth by that time, it was hitler's trick). So they just betrayed their treaties, betrayed Czechoslovakia and Poland, and hoped Hitler will stay clear of them.

Quote:
When is action proper, was it ok with Sadam? Would he have been another Hitler with oil money?

Nice example, another guy who was funded by US as a frontier against USSR, and then it turned against them. My opinion is that takeover of Iraq is more about getting frontier to Iran, and about oil too of course. But economically, this war wasn't efficient (unlike WW2), so i quess it's more about Iran.
Post 21 Dec 2007, 11:29
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
Quote:
Two front war started AFTER tides of battle turned, and AFTER it was clear Nazis will be defeated. And if you read some historical accounts of Hitler's war plans, he didn't care much about western front. Even though it advanced as quick as eastern front, he often relocated armies from west to east, and he always viewed eastern front as the real playground.


True, but at the same time, he didn't just let westerners in. That resistance on the west surely would have helped, but i still don't believe that the US was really a major world saver. The US could have done something here to save alot of US lives and let the world screw itself over, but sadly the US didn't mind it's own buisness and it got itself hurt. The US needs to stop handing things out to others. The US needs to look out for itself for once.

Quote:
US could have easily stopped hitler from beginning, he was dependant on cargo from US. Of course, that would mean someone would loose profit, and US would loose strong frontier for communism. Also "fundamentalist" part of US was quite sympathic for ideas of fascism: strong family, commitment to state, racial things (hatred against black people, antisemitism), state-pushed christianity, no liberalism, economical corporatism....


Sympathetic due to fundamentalism? Nah, Facism was viewed as bad as communism. The only real reason was personal investment in the US. It should have stayed that way. It wasn't our duty to go over and help Europe out, especially after helping both sides.

Quote:
Before start of war, US didn't have any motivation to stop hitler, even though it in my opinion did have power to stop him.


So did the Britts and Russians. Did they do anything? No, they just let Germany run over the little guys for a while, until some of the bigger places like france became part of the equation. That was their own fault.

Quote:
Yeah, western european powers didn't want to get involved with Hitler, because they felt they are weaker (that wasn't truth by that time, it was hitler's trick). So they just betrayed their treaties, betrayed Czechoslovakia and Poland, and hoped Hitler will stay clear of them.


No, they just didn't give a damn. It wasn't until after a few places were taken over that they tried to scare western countries. The scaring was a response to increased anger at Germany.

Quote:
Nice example, another guy who was funded by US as a frontier against USSR, and then it turned against them. My opinion is that takeover of Iraq is more about getting frontier to Iran, and about oil too of course. But economically, this war wasn't efficient (unlike WW2), so i quess it's more about Iran.


Really? Then what do we want with Iran? Do we want it as a platform to another country? What's the end goal? Slovakia? Mind you, if it was about oil, then why are Americans being stiffed when it comes to oil? We currently avoid using the heater here because it costs too much.

Mind you, i believe that the US should have just hung low for the war and let Europe screw itself over. If we did, Japan wouldn't have gotten scared and attacked Perl Harbor, and in the end, Germany and Japan would have gained a shared border (in the middle of Russia) and killed each other, just like the ending of the alliance with Russia and Germany. Some muslim country or maybe some resistance fighters would have decided that what's left is weak enough for attack, and would have been right and succeeded. Can you think of this...? Most of Europe being a muslim state? It would have happened...
Post 21 Dec 2007, 11:54
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
war war war war war war
raw raw raw raw raw raw
war is not the only problem, war is mostly THE solution adopted by governments and leaders to solve the big problem that is the humanity.

but what is the problem? really? is there any problem?

people born, live and die...
acceptance of this is "offtopic" for our dears leaders...
so, brain are crashing, because they only think about people management, population control, and don't see the human being aspect...
frankly, i prefer the misery, living like an animal, than live like a citizen...
Image( sorry it's in frensh... google, language tools, translator... Wink )
my brain is not connected to POWER SEEK procedure. hemm, no, my brain is connected to POWER SEEK procedure, but power for me, is the hability to do things by myself, without any external help...
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POWER is a word that can be interpreted in various and opposite meanings... and mine is the best... not because i love to brainfuck myself, just because i'm objective, and studing the humanity history gives me the error to avoid.
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the problem is not the little muslim, or christian, that only practice his religion...
the problem is not the custommer that only buy what is sold in shops...
the problem, one time again, is not the shop who sell bad products...

the problem is upstair, @ bigbrother
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Post 21 Dec 2007, 12:21
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
kohlrak wrote:
Sympathetic due to fundamentalism? Nah, Facism was viewed as bad as communism. The only real reason was personal investment in the US. It should have stayed that way. It wasn't our duty to go over and help Europe out, especially after helping both sides.

Many viewed it like you say, but many didn't. Check this: http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm. In case you aren't sure what was fascism about, read also part 1. Of course, due to what we talked about in other thread, don't mind guy's opinions, only accept evidence presented Smile

kohlrak wrote:
vid wrote:

Before start of war, US didn't have any motivation to stop hitler, even though it in my opinion did have power to stop him.

So did the Britts and Russians. Did they do anything? No, they just let Germany run over the little guys for a while, until some of the bigger places like france became part of the equation. That was their own fault.

Yes. That doesn't excuse USA, but you are right mostly european powers are to blame. They all tried to ally with hitler against "other side", instead of stopping him. I am not sure if USSR had power to stop nazis, but England and France surely did.

kohlrak wrote:
vid wrote:
Yeah, western european powers didn't want to get involved with Hitler, because they felt they are weaker (that wasn't truth by that time, it was hitler's trick). So they just betrayed their treaties, betrayed Czechoslovakia and Poland, and hoped Hitler will stay clear of them.

No, they just didn't give a damn. It wasn't until after a few places were taken over that they tried to scare western countries. The scaring was a response to increased anger at Germany.

Got any evidence for that? According to what i learnt so far (not much), they DID care about nazi, but didn't feel to have power. Some evidence that public saw Nazis as problem, not "didn't care" (read Chamberlain's speech): http://www.britishpathe.com/thumbnails.php?id=31124

Quote:
Really? Then what do we want with Iran? Do we want it as a platform to another country? What's the end goal?

Some possible responses here: http://rationalrevolution.net/war/index.htm. Guy backed it up with plenty of evidence, and it looks plausible to me.

kohlrak wrote:
Mind you, i believe that the US should have just hung low for the war and let Europe screw itself over. If we did, Japan wouldn't have gotten scared and attacked Perl Harbor, and in the end, Germany and Japan would have gained a shared border (in the middle of Russia) and killed each other, just like the ending of the alliance with Russia and Germany.

You are again forgetting the fact that i repeated several times here: Russia "won the war" (secured position to win war), while USA was still "hanging low for war and letting europe screw itself over". Outcome of war would be same even if USA wouldn't decide to stop "haning low for war" later, but probably much more people would die.
Post 21 Dec 2007, 13:09
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roboman



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 122
Location: USA
roboman
vid wrote:
You are again forgetting the fact that i repeated several times here: Russia "won the war" (secured position to win war), while USA was still "hanging low for war and letting europe screw itself over". Outcome of war would be same even if USA wouldn't decide to stop "haning low for war" later, but probably much more people would die.


Not a fact. Germany was over extended and not in good shape, but like any thing else, it's not over until it's over. While not loosing the men that the ussr and much of europe and while not having killed as many germans as the ussr, the US did take germanies oil away and it was US bombers who blew up most of the factories, air strips, bridges and played a very large part in keeping german boats off the seas. With out supplies from the US could the ussr and eastern europe have held out? With out the US cutting off the oil to germany and being a magor part of the force cutting off all other supplies could germany have kept up the war? No one knows or can know. Look back and screem America should have done something, look around and screem america needs to stop doing something. Is the war in iraq for oil, maybe. oil is money and money is power. If it hadn't been for oil that area of the world would likely still be much as it was 75 or 100 years ago. So any thing going on in that area is about oil, since oil is what have brought them wielth and turned their countries into world powers......
Post 21 Dec 2007, 15:55
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
please, speak about the winner of WWII on others threads...
the theme of this one is not only WAR
WAR WINNEROF THE WAR
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TROLL factory
Post 21 Dec 2007, 16:03
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
While not loosing the men that the ussr and much of europe and while not having killed as many germans as the ussr, the US did take germanies oil away and it was US bombers who blew up most of the factories, air strips, bridges and played a very large part in keeping german boats off the seas.

good point, US mostly took cary of german navy, and it did lot of bombarding (i thing most bombarding was done by england, not sure though).

Quote:
With out supplies from the US could the ussr and eastern europe have held out? With out the US cutting off the oil to germany and being a magor part of the force cutting off all other supplies could germany have kept up the war? No one knows or can know.

IMO US cutted most of supplies to germany pretty soon in war. By the time it joined war, supplies were already long cut off. But here I am just quessing - do you happen to have any data about this?

Quote:
Is the war in iraq for oil, maybe. oil is money and money is power. If it hadn't been for oil that area of the world would likely still be much as it was 75 or 100 years ago. So any thing going on in that area is about oil, since oil is what have brought them wielth and turned their countries into world powers......

I would say it's both about getting frontier from Iran, and about oil. You see that this war greatly exhaused US economy. If it was just for economic purposes (oil), then US screwed it badly. The link i gave has pretty convicing data that Iran was more important reason than oil. And it is also fitting to US policy against "enemy nations" last 50 years.
Post 21 Dec 2007, 17:14
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roboman



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 122
Location: USA
roboman
vid wrote:
Quote:
With out supplies from the US could the ussr and eastern europe have held out? With out the US cutting off the oil to germany and being a magor part of the force cutting off all other supplies could germany have kept up the war? No one knows or can know.

IMO US cutted most of supplies to germany pretty soon in war. By the time it joined war, supplies were already long cut off. But here I am just quessing - do you happen to have any data about this?


North African Campaign was in large part to cut off oil. There was rubber and tin being shipped from mostly South America. There was tetraethyl lead (needed for airplane fuel). Standard Oil, Du Pont, General Motors, Ford and other US based companies were all forced to stop shipping as soon as the US entered the war. The British navy wasn't up to the task of stopping those things on their own and there was the whole political thing about boarding and taking US or other countries ships. There is a lot of info about Rommel fighting to hold north african oil fields and shipping routs, as well as Patten driving the final pushes that broke the German hold in that area. As for the other, there is an ugly mess of legal cases that get very gray as to the dates the supplies stopped, but mostly seem to indicate it was when the US entered the war and that is also when the US started helping the British stop shipments from other countries intended for Germany. Most is easily searchable on the net, as much as you can trust what you find on the net....

Iraq, I don't know. No one in office, in the US seems to be able to see further then the next election
Post 25 Dec 2007, 06:55
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
thanks, got any references to these legal cases please?
Post 25 Dec 2007, 10:01
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Post 25 Dec 2007, 10:44
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 57
xanatose
A comment:
If you try to understand why the USA invaded Iraq and is planing to invade Iran as a country, dont bother it doesn't make sense.

Now if you look at the problem as a small group that took over power of the USA. And are using that power to gain themselves, then it all starts to make sense. Just follow the money, Chenney - HallyBurton, Bush - Exson. Both companies are making a killer since war started. And guess what, they dont need to risk their necks to do it. They have a bunch of mercenaries and a bunch of fools doing it for them.

Also, HallyBurton moved its central offices from the USA to Dubai. Why? I can think of many things ranging for the usual tax cuts, to hiding their money from USA.

The USA Treasury (a private company BTW), Have been issuing more and more money without regards of resources and without filling a G7 form that states how much money has being printed (G7 = 7 most powerfull goverments on earth). Which means there is no real way of knowing how much is 1$ worth. Thus the dollar position is shaky at best.

The only thing holding it is that crude oil is bought only in dollars, so other countries have a lot of them in reserve, and it will be disasterous for the world to let the dollar fall. However if the OPEC changes its policy and starts charging oil in Euro, then the dollar will lose its value, and drop. Not like a rock, because of the reserves of other countries, and the expeculation in FX. (It takes time to change trillions of dollars) But in less than 10 years, the dollar will value 1/4 of its current value. That will cause a caos in the USA leading to martial law and a facist state.
Post 25 Dec 2007, 18:15
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
speaking about PETROL, OIL barils
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there are solution, alternate energy extraction methods...
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to produce Hydrogen,
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no need of tanker...
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but need electricity, a lot of electricity
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or a very good electricity management and production
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a big multienergy processor...?
a combinaison of various energy sources...
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ImageImage

isn't it more beautifull than:
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Image
Post 25 Dec 2007, 18:37
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 57
xanatose
Truth there are alternatives to oil. but then how will Daddy Bush make obscene profits from hidrogen?
Post 25 Dec 2007, 22:49
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