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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
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kohlrak
I'm not going to respond to this topic more than the first post. I know it's gonna turn into an argument, but i thought i'd see some responses. If YHWH exists, and he came down to the Earth and knocked on your door, would you believe it was him? What would it take? How many miracles? If Jesus is real, and he knocked on your door and asked to speak with you to prove his existence, would you let him in? What would he have to do for you to let him in? And once in, would you bow before his feet like you would a great mighty king? Would you bow to YHWH and beg forgiveness? Just curious on how much honor and/or respect one would give to either the two if they were real and came to your door.
Post 03 Dec 2007, 21:20
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vid
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vid
After I would rule out possibility it is just (mine, or others') illusion, and after he would demonstrate his supernatural powers, yes, I would accept it as most plausible explaination of this fenomen. That would not be "believing" by the way, "believing" is by definition something you do when you have no proof. It could still turn out this was some alien joke with using laws of nature we don't yet understand Smile

And I would have plenty of questions on him why he was hiding himself so well before.

By the way, such coming would pretty much disprove beliefs of great many people, about qualities of their god. At least of those who describe their god with more than 4 letters.
Post 03 Dec 2007, 21:34
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Yahweh
I used acronymfinder.com to learn that yhwh corresponds to yahweh, the jewish "creator of the universe".
kohlrak wrote:
If Jesus is real, and he knocked on your door and asked to speak with you to prove his existence, would you let him in?
I am willing to believe that Jesus existed. Of course we don't know what he looked like. We don't know his ancestry (supposedly Jewish, but some assert African genetic influence), we think we know some things about him, but, many of those stories were fabricated by a real lord: Constantine, emperor of the Roman Empire. It was Constantine, for example, who assigned a birthdate to Jesus, corresponding to the SECOND most important pagan holiday: the winter solstice.

To answer your questions: First, if a mendicant (for Jesus is said to have taught poverty, and to have eschewed wealth, but then, again, what about the parable of the thirty talents????) appeared at my door, seeking NOT food, clothing, or shelter, nor medical attention, but rather to "save my soul", then, to answer your question: NO, I would not let him into my house, nor would I ask to see his wounds, nor the scars left by the thorns, nor any of the rest of it... I am unsure, reading your post, whether you equate Jesus of Nazareth (it is unclear to me, what EVIDENCE supports that town as his birth place) with yahweh. If so, then, I think lots of jews would disagree with you. Personally, I think these are all fairy tales. But, if some real live persons came to my door, knocked, and asked me for a couple of silver talents, and some hot soup, I would probably close the door and refuse them.

Well, I am off to the local church. Every Monday evening I play basketball at the local Baptist church. I am both the oldest, and the least skillful, but these folks are genuinely warm hearted, kind, and generous. They let me play ANYWAY, though I am clearly without skill, and without hope of attaining sufficient skill to equal their wondrous ability to leap through the air. I like to think that my donation of money to their church, last week, was based not on love of jesus, for I dislike him, and all other jewish preachers, but rather, on admiration that so many kind hearted folks have understood the true meaning of Christianity, which is not to FEAR the almighty, or respect the supernatural, ("bow before his feet") or beware of Satan, but rather, to render as much kindness as possible to the greatest number, especially to those less fortunate than ourselves. In basketball, and FASM, I am definitely at the bottom of the HEAP. Someone has to be less skillful, else, if we were all equally adept at creating good programs, there would be no need for this forum. It is true, that knowing less than most, I benefit more from this forum than most other FASM forumers. Maybe that is a tad unfair, but then, so is life.
Post 03 Dec 2007, 21:53
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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xanatose
Well, If I where a Christian, then I wont believe it. (Becuase the Bible warns about it). If I where a Jew, I might believed (since I will still be waiting for the Messiah to take over the world for Israel). If I where a Muslim, I dont know what I believe.

I had doubts before, For example. why an American Indian that does not believe in Jesus should be condemned if he is otherwise a good person. For that mather why would an ateist be condemned? The answer came to me in a dream, a VERY long one, wherever it came from God or from my subconcious I dont really know, and I dont really care. It answer my question. Since the dream itself is very long (will take many pages to describe), I will tell you my conclusions:

Man cannot see hearth, but God can. God is not an egomaniatical being that wants you to workship him at all times. God does not trick you, nor can be be tricked or bribed. God does not take sides. God has no need for that.

It doesn't mather what you believe or not in God as long as your hearth is truth and you follow what your hearth believes. But beware. nobody starts evil. All evil begins when you forget that a living being is living and start treating it as an object. All life is important. Altough for each day you live, something else dies, being a plant, or an animal.

Thus I believe in God. Dont know what it is. God could be a being. God could be the set of rules in the universe. God could be a collective. I dont know, but dont really care. Im content to know that is there. Thus I believe in God, but I dont believe on ANY church.
Post 03 Dec 2007, 22:07
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vid
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vid
Quote:
I had doubts before, For example. why an American Indian that does not believe in Jesus should be condemned if he is otherwise a good person. For that mather why would an ateist be condemned?

Did you know this is one of most common reason of religious people leaving religion and becoming atheist?

So, you say, it is enough to be a good person, and you don't need to believe in god, right? Good person who is atheist is just as good as good person who believes in (some) God. Yes?

I wish more religious people would think same as you do, world would be much better place.
Post 03 Dec 2007, 22:22
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
vid wrote:
Quote:
I had doubts before, For example. why an American Indian that does not believe in Jesus should be condemned if he is otherwise a good person. For that mather why would an ateist be condemned?

Did you know this is one of most common reason of religious people leaving religion and becoming atheist?
That is what turned me off to religion from an early age. When I try to explain this to religious people they just say that I am not God. There is no talking with indoctronated drones. Even organized Buddhism is scary in the way it looses sight of the good that can be found in the teaching.
Post 04 Dec 2007, 02:19
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roboman



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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roboman
kohlrak wrote:
If YHWH exists, and he came down to the Earth and knocked on your door, would you believe it was him?

I would believe it was likely he/she thought so. I would take it as being as true as any other statement made by some one I don't know, it's their view and might be true.
kohlrak wrote:
What would it take? How many miracles?

I'm not sure and not sure I would be 100% sure ever.
kohlrak wrote:
If Jesus is real, and he knocked on your door and asked to speak with you to prove his existence, would you let him in?

No, but it's very likely I would offer to talk with him out front or over at the park.
kohlrak wrote:
What would he have to do for you to let him in?

If he became a friend of mine or gave me a compelling reason that to let him in. If I came to really believe he has jesus I would hope the friend part would come.
kohlrak wrote:
And once in, would you bow before his feet like you would a great mighty king?

That's assuning I would do that with a king, and it's unlikely in both cases.
kohlrak wrote:
Would you bow to YHWH and beg forgiveness?

There isn't much I feel I need to be forgiven for, but no I wouldn't do that. At some point early on I'm sure the subject would come up and am sure I would ask if I had made proper amends and if not talk over what I might do to make things right.
kohlrak wrote:
Just curious on how much honor and/or respect one would give to either the two if they were real and came to your door.

I think I have a different view of what honoring and respecting some one means then your questions would imply
Post 04 Dec 2007, 04:06
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
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nyrtzi
Miracles wouldn't cut it at least for me as proof.
I am a Christian but I refuse to believe in the supernatural.
Actually it's not really that but instead I think that the whole
concept of "supernatural" is unnecessary.
Although I don't know how miracles happen that doesn't
mean that they not natural events. Whether any miracles
have ever happened has nothing to do with the fact that
there are things that current science can't explain
properly or at all.

If I were to travel far enough back in time with a laptop computer
or a mobile phone how would the people of that see these
items? Technology? Magic? Miracles?

Similarly if a fake Jesus would travel back in time from the future and
use future technology to perform something that looks like a miracle
to the humans of this era should I believe?

This is my point. I believe that even if you see something "miraculous"
that you don't understand you shouldn't be convinced that the person
who did it is a god.

If Spider-man or some other superhuman fictional character
were to really exist would you consider him a god just because
he has special powers?

What would make a god a god? Perhaps that the answer to
this question would help us determine a better test for godhood.
Post 04 Dec 2007, 08:04
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andyz74



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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andyz74
If god came to my door, I would ask him, if his earth-control-program is copyrighted by Bill Gates, or why there are so many bugs in it. Some updates wouldn't be bad... Wink

If I would bow to him and pray for forgiving some sins?
I think, a REAL god isn't such a looser, which forces you to believe in him, and if you don't, he will treat you bad or such things. If this is the only way, he comes to power, than he's a level 2 god.
Post 04 Dec 2007, 17:08
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i believe God Almighty is watching us all the time.
i believe people search for religion because they want an answer, where we came from, what is our purpose and where would we go after we die.

now, i haven't yet seen science provide answer as to where would we go after we die, so as our purposes on this world.

my God, my God is the God that created all this universe, everything including nothing. if YHWH fits the description, then it is my God, if Jesus fits in, he is too, but problem is Jesus is a born human (a reality that you couldn't deny is, he is a week baby before), so week later go strong and become God, ..... that is ... maybe you could accept that as God.

my God exits before, now and after. infinity, no start, no end, all the power, glory belong to ~.

and luckily, all the qualities that (thought, generalized, created, inspired) through my brain/mind was the same as written in a religion called Islam.

think about the few hours if we will die. and leaving this world... at least i have an idea where i would head to.

... now somebody should give me some insight as what science foretell about where human gone after die? (isn't this an important question) coz... u see, people are (die as missing) everyday from earth, don't u guys (scientiets) wanna know where they gone to?

if this is what science couldn't answer, then those science believers must accept a fact that, there is a limit in science.
Post 04 Dec 2007, 17:43
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vid
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vid
Quote:
now, i haven't yet seen science provide answer as to where would we go after we die, so as our purposes on this world.

no? science is clear on this: nowhere. To same place where computer goes after you throw it out of window. Simple. Your awareness, mind, personality, etc. exists no more after you die.

Many people don't like this, and so they don't believe it, but so far it seems reality is not depending on what people like and what they don't.

Quote:
if this is what science couldn't answer, then those science believers must accept a fact that, there is a limit in science.

of course there are limits in science, no one denies that. Science is limited to observable and testable things. In case there are some things that never do anything to us (like god in deism, or matrix-like ideas), science doesn't tell anything about it. But such things doesn't matter anyway, because everything is same whether they are true or not.

There is even area of science which studies how much can be studied by science (with regard to observable universe, etc...) Smile
Post 04 Dec 2007, 17:57
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codegrinder



Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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codegrinder
kohlrak wrote:
If YHWH exists, and he came down to the Earth and knocked on your door, would you believe it was him?

If...
Post 20 Dec 2007, 11:11
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revolution
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revolution
kohlrak wrote:
If YHWH exists, and he came down to the Earth and knocked on your door, would you believe it was him? What would it take? How many miracles? If Jesus is real, and he knocked on your door and asked to speak with you to prove his existence, would you let him in? What would he have to do for you to let him in? And once in, would you bow before his feet like you would a great mighty king? Would you bow to YHWH and beg forgiveness? Just curious on how much honor and/or respect one would give to either the two if they were real and came to your door.
Your questions assume that the 'lord' exists. So if that is the case then some of the answers given above about the 'lord' not existing don't apply.

So based upon that assumption, that the 'lord' does indeed exist, with my own personal beliefs about such existence not allowed to override that: My immediate thought is how does kohlrak define 'lord' in the context above? My discussion following will try to be based upon the idea that kohlrak's 'lord' is as mentioned in the bible. This based upon his statements in another thread about electronic bibles etc.
kohlrak wrote:
If YHWH exists, and he came down to the Earth and knocked on your door, would you believe it was him?

That depends upon what proof was offered, see below.
kohlrak wrote:
What would it take?

I assume you mean what would it take to make me believe it was him. Again based upon the assumption that a 'lord' does exist and now we are just trying to determine that this person at my door in indeed the 'lord'.
kohlrak wrote:
How many miracles?

Miracles are very hard to recognise, as one poster above has alluded to, any technology sufficiently advanced can appear as magic to the uninitiated. So 'miracles' ain't gonna cut it for me. Maybe some kind of special knowledge that I know no one else but me knew, that might do it. But it would have to very very special, not just some hit and miss thing like cold reading and other sillyness, where 10 guesses gets you one right answer.
kohlrak wrote:
If Jesus is real, and he knocked on your door and asked to speak with you to prove his existence, would you let him in?

If I was sufficiently bored, didn't feel threatened, he was clean and I had nothing better to do then yes. I sometimes like to hear peoples stories if I'm in the right mood.
kohlrak wrote:
What would he have to do for you to let him in?

He would have to not try to sell me something, not ask me for money, not ask me for food, not offer to save my soul, not tell me I will suffer if I reject him, appear friendly, clean, healthy. He would need a sense of humour and not be badgering or pestering me in any way. Also he must seem to have something interesting to say. Basically a tough set of things for any stranger to meet but if he was the real 'lord' then presumably it should be no problem for him to know what I would like to see.
kohlrak wrote:
And once in, would you bow before his feet like you would a great mighty king?

Yes I would bow to him in exactly the same way I bow to a king, that is, not at all. I don't bow to people based simply upon titles. If I feel the person deserves it then I would bow, regardless of that persons title, position or stature.
kohlrak wrote:
Would you bow to YHWH and beg forgiveness?

If he said that if I don't beg forgiveness something bad would happen then I would say get out of my house. But this question also assumes that I have already been convinced of his lordliness, which has not yet been established. So far he has only come into my house. As a general rule, I don't beg to anyone.
kohlrak wrote:
Just curious on how much honor and/or respect one would give to either the two if they were real and came to your door.

The hard part is establishing if any of the claimants are real. I could not point to any particular thing that would cause people to suddenly believe. Everybody has different trigger levels for what is required to change their mind. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the person in question has indeed sufficiently proved himself, so based upon that it would seem sensible to give suitable respect. But in my view toadying lackeys would not be very respectful. Respect can be given in many ways, and subtler ways would be better than overt bible bashing and preaching. It is an internal thing. Just giving lip service, like many people do, comes across as insincere and boring.

Note above I have not indicated my personal view on whether the 'lord' can, does or has existed. It is just a discussion on what is required for me to let someone in my door, and what treatment would I give someone that had sufficiently proved to be who he claimed. Those were the questions asked.
Post 20 Dec 2007, 12:40
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RedGhost



Joined: 18 May 2005
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RedGhost
The old testament is a bunch of tribal stories which eventually made it to paper in ancient Hebrew and various other languages which are poorly translated these days.

The new testament is highly debated, perhaps it was just another fictional piece to inspire? Why did the apostles becomes martyrs for Jesus (It's mostly proven they did exist). Let's not to forget all the people of "influence" who "modified" parts of the texts, set certain dates, etc.

(EDIT by vid: following discussion about historicity of apostles was moved here)

I am an atheist I suppose, believing that religion is entirely "faith" based, if you want to put all your energy and devotion into some mistranslated archaic texts which speak of wonders you will never see I think that's quite mad, but it's up to you Smile

Just treat all men with respect and love regardless of their ethnicity, wealth, sexuality (yes even that), heritage and etc.

So, if a guy came to my door claiming to be Jesus I'd probably ask him if he forgot to take his medication and drive him to the nearest hospital.

If that means I'm going to burn in the eternal lake of fire, don't worry, I have plenty of sun screen.

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Last edited by RedGhost on 20 Dec 2007, 13:34; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Dec 2007, 13:26
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
revolution wrote:
Maybe some kind of special knowledge that I know no one else but me knew, that might do it. But it would have to very very special, not just some hit and miss thing like cold reading and other sillyness, where 10 guesses gets you one right answer.
I've thought about this special knowledge communication a great deal. We are communicating so much more than we often understand ourselves. So, it really isn't that strange to share deep unspoken insight between close friends - even things we think no one else could know.

For example, being able to know when a woman is pregnant - even before she has consciously acknowledged it to herself. This requires being able to sense subtle shifts in personality across larger time scales. Any parent sees changes take place within their child which is far beyond the child to comprend.

The Bible has always been a story for children.
Post 20 Dec 2007, 16:26
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
bitRAKE wrote:
I've thought about this special knowledge communication a great deal. We are communicating so much more than we often understand ourselves. So, it really isn't that strange to share deep unspoken insight between close friends - even things we think no one else could know.
But we are talking about a stranger here, not a close friend. Anyhow, things like pregnancy are physical things, not pure knowledge.

Eg. What was I thinking about at age 8, during a class session about whales and other mammals that live in the sea? Now if someone were really the 'lord', not only should they know who I am without having to ask, but also know everything about my past. Isn't that how most people describe the 'lord', as omnipotent?
Post 20 Dec 2007, 16:39
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
revolution wrote:
Anyhow, things like pregnancy are physical things, not pure knowledge.
By "pure knowledge" do you mean energy, or rather form of energy? Thoughts are also physical? (I think they are.) So, all I need to create is a device that reads your mind and then I'm your 'lord'? I'm just saying that wouldn't work for me.

I know even strangers appearing in a human form are bound by physical features of that form. And that includes much common culture - some of it unconscious. Who can say they know all the assumptions they have made? I certainly can not.

revolution wrote:
Eg. What was I thinking about at age 8, during a class session about whales and other mammals that live in the sea?
Since you've provided an opportunity for me to be raise to the status of 'lord' I should at least give it a try, but I don't want to reveal your secret. Laughing
Post 20 Dec 2007, 17:33
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revolution
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revolution
bitRAKE wrote:
So, all I need to create is a device that reads your mind and then I'm your 'lord'?
I hadn't thought of that possibility and it is a very good response. I have no defense for my argument against that. So I guess there ain't much that could be done by the 'lord' knocking on my door to prove that he is who he claims to be.

Dire Straits, 1982 - Love Over Gold, Industrial Disease: "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong".
Post 20 Dec 2007, 17:47
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revolution
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revolution
I been thinking about this a little, don't know why, just are. Anyhow, let's up the ante a little. With the comment I made earlier "Maybe some kind of special knowledge that I know no one else but me knew, that might do it". Now bitRAKE proved to me how naive that was. So, perhaps the following might be a better way for proof?

Maybe some kind of special knowledge, like successfully predicting the future. Now I'm not talking about the normal run-of-the-mill idiot that makes 1000 vague predictions and get 1 or 2 hits and becomes a celebrity. I mean very very specific testable predictions, either short or long term, and not just one prediction. The odds could be worked out, like 20 (or more) in a row 1000:1 predictions would be quite compelling proof. This site is kind of trying to do this already. So far no one has passed the preliminary stage.
Post 22 Dec 2007, 14:21
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
...and that leads us to time travel. Laughing

I don't know if that is possible anymore than creating a machine to read your mind, but it should certainly be more difficult.
Post 22 Dec 2007, 17:14
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