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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1029
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OzzY
So, it's now a normal download without any validation.
What do you think about it?

I think MS started to lose for firefox. Laughing
Post 20 Nov 2007, 04:23
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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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OzzY
Oh. And I think they want to take flash's market with Silverlight.
So IE7 for free is the magic. Smile
Post 20 Nov 2007, 04:32
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
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f0dder
I don't think they've lost majorly to firefox, but they've decided they don't want to keep patching IE6 over and over (a decision that would have made more sense if they had scrapped IE6 codebase and started fresh with IE7).

I personally don't think this is nice, and I won't like if IE7 is included in SP3, simply because IE6, with all it's security holes and stuff, is pretty fast and works reasonably well. IE7 is noticeably slower, and (at least on Vista) it crashes often.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 04:49
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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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OzzY
It seems we now have a browser war: IE7, FF, Opera, Safari (from Apple)...
Wait... soon I'll release my killa 4kb browser in ASM. Very Happy
Post 20 Nov 2007, 04:53
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
OzzY: will that be a full HTML+XML+XSL+CSS+ECMAScript capable browser, without using any third-party browser components? Smile
Post 20 Nov 2007, 05:02
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
I don't feel anymore safe with firefox considering...

Quote:
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)


People liek to say that it's because they have similar browsers that servers can't tell the difference. I say that's bull hicky. The browser itself sends the user agent string, and i believe that Microsoft did what it does best and copies the work of others. I believe that IE is nothing more than an old version of a mozilla browser beefed up with a fancier interface. Actually, i feel a little more secure with IE for all the firewall programs that hook IE because they know it's there, rather than the under-developed version of the same thing. IE is firefox with the addons built in. I'd switch completely to off by one if it wasnt' for a few minor features that are missing... It's more secure than both of them. If HTML wasn't so butchered, i'd suggest making your own browser so you can restrict what you want and keep what you want. But, of course, HTML is butchered and has more components than even microsoft knows (and therefor i can't blame them if they copied). But, i'm just a moron with a radical opinion on everything.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 05:21
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
kohlrak: are you on acid? Smile go hunt for the history of the two browsers, it should be easy enough to find.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 05:35
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
IE7 is soon to be 10 years behind web standards while Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. are reasonably up to date. While IE is the most used browser, it is slowly losing market share, mainly to Firefox. FF usage is as high as 50% in some European countries, such as Germany and Finland, and many others are 20% to 30%. Australia, too, is around 30%. US is about 16%, iirc, and Canada slightly higher.

One of the reasons for this is IEs lack of standards compliance. A web developer typically must write html/css/javascript that works in the modern browsers (Firefox, Opera, Safari), but then must spend time adding hacks to make IE perform as it is supposed to.

In addition, many features available in the modern browsers simply don't work on IE. XHTML does not run natively on IE, nor does SVG. Many new CSS3 properties are available but don't work in IE.

So developers push Firefox, Opera and Safari in hopes to get Microsoft to either bring IE into the 21st century or it dwindles to the levels where it won't matter anymore.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 06:06
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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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OzzY
I installed IE7.
Until now it feels pretty good.
It's not slow or memory hog at least for me.
Let's see how it goes...

One thing I liked is that it integrates with spybot search & destroy anti-spyware program.

It's also possible to uninstall it.
So I think it's worth checking it.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 16:45
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
OzzY: a thing I've noticed for all IE7 installs I've seen (vista as well as XP, widely different hardware) is that Ctrl+T to open a new tab is slow - it's as if there's a 100+ milisecond delay for the new tab to open. Even bloated pig firefox opens tabs faster than that Sad
Post 20 Nov 2007, 16:55
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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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Location: Everywhere
OzzY
Quote:
OzzY: a thing I've noticed for all IE7 installs I've seen (vista as well as XP, widely different hardware) is that Ctrl+T to open a new tab is slow - it's as if there's a 100+ milisecond delay for the new tab to open. Even bloated pig firefox opens tabs faster than that


Not here! I don't know if my machine is too fast so any software runs ok.

I can run Linux with beryl, running windows XP inside VMWARE and playing Doom 3 inside it. LOL


But I think Opera is still the fastest and lightest.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 16:57
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OzzY



Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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OzzY
I've been testing further. Yes, Opera is still faster and have nice things such as download manager, bit torrent client and is lighter even with lots of tabs open.

IMHO, it's not worth the upgrade to IE7.
At least from the browsing experience.
Maybe for security it's OK, because IE is important to Windows and may add security problems if you don't upgrade.

But I think it's best to upgrade to Opera instead if you search a better browser.


Last edited by OzzY on 20 Nov 2007, 17:15; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Nov 2007, 17:07
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
I use opera, it is good, but somewhat less supported. "active" things doesn't always work, and time-by-time you need to switch to IE or FF
Post 20 Nov 2007, 17:14
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hckr83



Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 86
Location: usa
hckr83
yea, there does seem to be a 100ms wait thing in IE...I have a quite fast dual-core athlon64, so I don't think my computer is the problem..

I use firefox, more secure addons; follows web standards; Updating it is not bloated; I don't get random addons that just "appear" whenever I update; ect, ect...
Post 20 Nov 2007, 18:11
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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drhowarddrfine
vid wrote:
I use opera, it is good, but somewhat less supported. "active" things doesn't always work, and time-by-time you need to switch to IE or FF
Opera is very well supported. Much more so than IE. If it weren't for the development tools I need on FF, I would use Opera.

It is true that Opera is lighter and faster than the others.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 19:13
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
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kohlrak
Quote:
It's not slow or memory hog at least for me.


Odd, it's worse than IE 6. I accidentally upgraded one time before i got my gig of ram, and i regretted it.

Quote:
One thing I liked is that it integrates with spybot search & destroy anti-spyware program.


Amen to that, looks like microsoft isn't completely stupid.

Quote:
OzzY: a thing I've noticed for all IE7 installs I've seen (vista as well as XP, widely different hardware) is that Ctrl+T to open a new tab is slow - it's as if there's a 100+ milisecond delay for the new tab to open. Even bloated pig firefox opens tabs faster than that


Probably the memory. It is slow opening a new tab, but it's 1 second or less to do so on my rig, and i am stuck with an old p4. At the moment of posting this, it is the program in first place (based on task manager because i'm too lazy to use anything else to check) rivaling aol instant messenger by little over 200K.

Quote:
IMHO, it's not worth the upgrade to IE7.
At least from the browsing experience.
Maybe for security it's OK, because IE is important to Windows and may add security problems if you don't upgrade.


Agreed, even with the RAM upgrade, i wish i was still on old IE, for then i'd still have more free stuff and have less restarting.

Quote:
I use opera, it is good, but somewhat less supported. "active" things doesn't always work, and time-by-time you need to switch to IE or FF


That and some HTML parsing problems is why i don't sit here and suggest OffByOne that was given to me here a while back. It's a simple browser and dosn't eat up as much ram and dosn't hog your CPU, though it's got some other un-desireable effects, but even they are managable.

For the most part, i don't like FF, for one i'm not used to it, and two for some sites that don't keep firefox in mind, you have a problem. Web browsers these days are like compilers and assemblers. You have an "umpteen" number of formats for each compiler. No 2 C++ compilers are alike, no 2 assemblers are alike, and the list goes on. Web browsers are a sort of compiler for the (as you can see i'm not a loon sticking up for weirdos that think HTML is a programming language) NON-PROGRAMMING-LANGUAGE HTML, a frontend for javascript, and a frontend for java and everything else. Put simply, you can't expect much from any particular browser standard wise. You should be going for whatever suits your speed and memory and convinience, for you shouldn't even have to worry about security either, since chances are if you're going into un-charted territory you're going to get stuff no matter what your browser is, and if you're smart you'll have your browser part of your firewall (most likely tends to IE more than anything else due to all the hot wind thrown at it) turned all the way up, anyway. To put it simple, the only time that i have a real issue with IE is when i go over kill with the windows and try to do something else or when i fly into un-charted territory while too lazy to turn my security settings up.

Well, there's one more time, but one can't blame soley IE for this, and infact it caused an argument between me and my girlfriend and her mom. What happened was, my girlfriend wanted me to join her family's "pogo" thingy, and since i'm using free version i get more adds than you can count, especially banner ads that reload every 5 minutes, even when i'm playing a game with them that was coded in JAVA. My argument was Java was partially to blame, they said that millions of people use java all the time and have no problem. My problem was that an advertisment didn't want to load and i was in the middle of a game and the window froze like expected. They won't listen to me.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 21:25
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
kohlrak wrote:

No 2 C++ compilers are alike

Wrong. As long as you stick to ISO C++, libc and STL, your code will compile out of the box on anything that isn't broken. And you don't really need non-standard extensions, and the few that can be handy (pragma pack and align) are at least standard between gcc and vc.

Most sites show just fine in firefox, the ones that are b0rked are very few these days.

Firefox is a bloated pig, but it's my browser of choice... the extensions are very valueable (mmh, adblock), it's a bit less vulnerable than IE, it's got better standards compliance (and does render most IE specific shit okay). Get used to it Smile
Post 20 Nov 2007, 21:31
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
[quote="f0dder"]
kohlrak wrote:

Most sites show just fine in firefox, the ones that are b0rked are very few these days.
Web developers are now coding to the standards and ignoring IEs quirks and bugs until the page is completed, then we can use known hacks for IE.
Quote:
Firefox is a bloated pig
This is a myth. Firefox seems bigger because IE uses Windows core components to run which Firefox doesn't have access to. One proof of this is to open IE and then open a second window (not a tab) while checking memory usage. Do the same with FF and notice the change in memory usage between IE and FF will be about the same. Of course, if you have a lot of extensions running in FF, the number will be larger but extensions are not part of the main browser. FF also heavily uses cache for web pages making back and forth switching faster.
Quote:
but it's my browser of choice...it's a bit less vulnerable than IE
IE has five times more reported security vulnerabilities than Firefox has.
Quote:
it's got better standards compliance
IE7 is going on 10 years behind web standards.
Quote:
(and does render most IE specific shit okay)
It renders very little IE specific stuff because it's a standards compliant browser. Other browsers don't do it either and they shouldn't. I know there are some things but can only think of two new CSS properties that are becoming part of the new CSS3 standard.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 22:05
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Quote:

This is a myth. Firefox seems bigger because IE uses Windows core components to run which Firefox doesn't have access to.

Wrong. First of all, the components are standard and everybody can use them if they want to. Second, I'm not sure that all parts of IE are loaded at system startup. BESIDES, firefox is still slow even on second-time launches when everything is in the filesystem cache.

The same goes for Office2000 vs. OpenOffice, even without component preload Office2000 is ready in less than a second even on a pmmx-200, whereas OpenOffice chugs away for ages on an AMD64x2 with 2 gigs of ram and a 10k rpm raptor disk. Bad code.

Quote:

One proof of this is to open IE and then open a second window (not a tab) while checking memory usage. Do the same with FF and notice the change in memory usage between IE and FF will be about the same. Of course, if you have a lot of extensions running in FF, the number will be larger but extensions are not part of the main browser. FF also heavily uses cache for web pages making back and forth switching faster.

Interestingly enough, I thought that IE always spawned a new process for Ctrl+N whereas firefox always has one process... Ctrl+N is also extremely slow in FF considering that it doesn't do a CreateProcess with all the associated work.

Quote:

Quote:

it's got better standards compliance

IE7 is going on 10 years behind web standards.

I was referring to FF wrt. better compliance, just to avoid misunderstandings.
Post 20 Nov 2007, 22:16
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Quote:

Wrong. First of all, the components are standard and everybody can use them if they want to. Second, I'm not sure that all parts of IE are loaded at system startup. BESIDES, firefox is still slow even on second-time launches when everything is in the filesystem cache.
From webdevout.com (often referenced by Microsoft)
Quote:

The Internet Explorer window typically comes up faster than Firefox the first time you double-click on the program icon. This is mainly because core Internet Explorer libraries are actually loaded into memory as your computer is starting up. Furthermore, not all components of the web browser are in memory when the browser window comes up. Some components, such as the favorites manager, are only loaded into memory when you access them, while Firefox loads everything at once.
Also:
Quote:
In regard to webpage rendering, Firefox is most often faster than Internet Explorer, even with its more extensive support for web technology.
Post 21 Nov 2007, 01:11
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