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Index > Heap > who are you, who am i, define i

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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
if "i" is changing everyday day/minute.
and i is not the i of yesterday, and the tomorrow i wouldn't be same like today i, then what makes an "i"?

i came to realize that no wonder sins could be pardoned.
coz when one regrets, seek forgiveness and disagree in his/her ownself for what he/she had done, he/she is already another person compare to he/she that committed the sins.
Post 10 Nov 2007, 23:18
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
I am pi - not some approximation, but the real thing.
I can be known, but never duplicated. Laughing

Of course, there is a tragedy in trying to define the indefinable, but once we understand this simple thing we can continue to communicate with the understanding that we never will truly understand.

What can be gained by getting stuck on this topic? I will even agree that we are definable, but beyond computability - so, no loss or gain. Philosophically, it is amusing - we are all special.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 06:21
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Not to forget drugs that damage part of brain which percepts "I" and differs it from surroundings. Some people can even "shut" it intentionally without help of drugs - process called meditation, or deep prayer. You are unable to realize what is you and what is surroundings, and that makes you feel like "you are everywhere" or "one with the world", religious people percieve it as if they are "together with god" or something. There is no "I" then.

God Helmet
on soul and brain

I would say that "I" is simply the matter that makes system of my counciousness.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 11:38
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
sleepsleep wrote:
if "i" is changing everyday day/minute.
and i is not the i of yesterday, and the tomorrow i wouldn't be same like today i, then what makes an "i"?
There is one thing (besides our body) which is joining our "yesterday" with "today" - it's a memory. Without memory we could be different people everyday, however, some instincts (also "low-level" memory) should stay the same, of course. Smile
Post 11 Nov 2007, 19:18
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
There is one thing (besides our body) which is joining our "yesterday" with "today" - it's a memory.

How is memory "besides our body"? It is part of our body, in brain.

Quote:
Without memory we could be different people everyday, however, some instincts (also "low-level" memory) should stay the same, of course.

read the second article, it discusses even people without memory. still they have some self-consciousness ("I") left.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 19:21
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
vid wrote:
How is memory "besides our body"? It is part of our body, in brain.
Maybe I have used wrong word. Smile I don't mean that a memory is outside our body, of course. Wink Maybe there should be "apart from"? My "I" is still thinking in Polish. Very Happy

Memory is made from biochemical states of neurons and connections between neural cells. It could be erased or damaged by some chemicals or mechanical injuries.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 19:25
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
The same problem exists is describing programs: What is data? What is code? Does a program also include the machine state prior to start?

What is the natural state of mind? I eat too much sugar and caffine, or maybe I am defective? Who has the authority to judge? Let us ignore historical presidence for a moment. Might we talk about the good of society, but it all leads back to authority - who says what is good(tm)?

It is the same with "I". If I is just the matter then are there not forces outside the body with influence on that matter? Isn't that matter constantly in motion? We will seek to replicate the "I" and when there is no decernable difference we will say we have succeeded, and yet they will be different.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 19:44
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MHajduk



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MHajduk
Homo Sapiens species is very strange, because tries to enclose this world (which is a continuum, in which everything is fluently changing in another thing, everything is in continuous motion) in strongly separated, discrete and static definitions. Very Happy Maybe we should start defining our world in fuzzy definitions which could be more appropriate?
Post 11 Nov 2007, 20:24
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
MHajduk wrote:
...Maybe we should start defining our world in fuzzy definitions...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron
MHajduk wrote:
...Maybe there should be "apart from"? My "I" is still thinking in Polish....
??? What does L1 have to do with a definition of memory? Do you wish to imply that memory depends upon language? Then, if so, do you wish to explain how dogs and mice and honeybees and octopus have memory, though not language, at least, not as humans define language.
MHajduk wrote:
...Memory is made from biochemical states of neurons and connections between neural cells....
We honestly do not know what memory is. I agree with you, that neuronal interaction plays a crucial role in accomplishing memory, as well as vision, hearing, movement, thinking, and many vegetative functions. Isn't it interesting, that while plants have no neurons, some carnivorous species respond to an unsuspecting insect's touch of their alluring reproductive organs, by trapping the insect, and digesting it, for nutrients. My only concern with your written statement above is that it implies a degree of knowledge about the chemistry and physics of memory, which we do not possess. No one can (yet) explain the biochemical basis of memory, in the way, for example that we can explain the transmission of genetic traits. Memory, and all other neurological processes remain elusive. The thread's origin deals with an even more difficult definition: where does the ego reside in the brain: i.e. if vision is related, for example, to the occipital lobe, and memory is somehow related to the hippocampus, and appetite control depends upon regulation of the hypothalamus, WHERE does the "I" lie in the brain? No one knows. Some have suggested the Frontal lobes of the cerebrum. Others have posited the amygdala, or the thalamus, since birds and animals other than humans also possess consciousness of self, yet lack any cerebral cortex.
bitRAKE wrote:
...What is data? What is code?...
Sure, you are not wrong to state the problem this way, however, while correct, i.e. all data, and all code, are ultimately nothing more than bits set or cleared, just as all memory is ultimately nothing more than some chemical interactions, still, it is useful to attempt to clarify the process whereby these chemical reactions lead to recognition of past sorrows, or pleasures. It is indeed memory which helps any species to survive. By the same token, differentiating code from data, particularly for those who seek to create programs, rather than deliberately obfuscate, assists those who may not be as skillful as some others, in recognizing that one bit is a datum, whilst another is an instruction. If you will spend a few hours working with Feryno in a psychiatric hospital, you will come to understand and appreciate why it is useful to clarify and distinguish code from data, as there are, unfortunately, a large number of humans who suffer brain injury, and who have subsequently lost the ability to discriminate numbers from letters, text from music, mustard from ketchup, right from wrong.
Smile
Post 11 Nov 2007, 21:05
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
tom tobias wrote:
If you will spend a few hours working with Feryno in a psychiatric hospital, you will come to understand and appreciate why it is useful to clarify and distinguish code from data, as there are, unfortunately, a large number of humans who suffer brain injury, and who have subsequently lost the ability to discriminate numbers from letters, text from music, mustard from ketchup, right from wrong.
Smile
It might be beneficial then to understand that all is data, and some of it is code. Smile We see this at almost every scale - nature does not waste anything. Data which is not code at one scale serves as code at another scale - down as far as we can percieve. Organization leads to higher scale functionality.

In terms of brain damage the organization at a high-level scale has been impaired and the functionality drops to a lower level. So, although the distinction is important at one scale it is equally important to specify the limited scale of such distinctions. Efficient repairs might require understanding how data might operate as code, or visa versa - rather than the butchering that has been done in the past.

This understanding is a constant struggle for me.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 22:04
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
since we knew "i" is everchanging, it could be, yesterday i love to bribe locals townhall for getting projects, but today i hate to do so. and etc.

so, all the past i and current i "thinking/perception" are contradicting, of course, you are still you with your past memory, but your perception are totally different already.

so, i should regard/account a person base on his past memory or his current perception?

Quote:

process called meditation, or deep prayer. You are unable to realize what is you and what is surroundings, and that makes you feel like "you are everywhere" or "one with the world",

sometime they name the term as "thoughtless", not thinking of anything and you will find the "i" missing.
Post 11 Nov 2007, 23:54
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
sometime they name the term as "thoughtless", not thinking of anything and you will find the "i" missing.

that is the feeling you get, but actually the "I" is missing DURING this state, and it ironically causes you to feel you have found new self

technically said, your self-awareness is switched off, and it makes you feel you are one with everything (you cannot distinguish self from other things), eg. you feel "another, new self".

It is well described in that second link.
Post 12 Nov 2007, 00:40
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
tom tobias wrote:
MHajduk wrote:
...Maybe we should start defining our world in fuzzy definitions...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron
tom tobias, it isn't "oxymoron". I proposed to define the world in the terms of fuzzy logic.
tom tobias wrote:
MHajduk wrote:
...Maybe there should be "apart from"? My "I" is still thinking in Polish....
??? What does L1 have to do with a definition of memory? Do you wish to imply that memory depends upon language? Then, if so, do you wish to explain how dogs and mice and honeybees and octopus have memory, though not language, at least, not as humans define language.
It's simply misunderstanding of what I wrote or... human malice. Wink I mean "besides the body" ~ "not to mention the body". Propose better synonym, you are here the English language guru. Smile

Memory is rather the state of brain, not the determined part of brain.

BTW, if we will be concerned on the particular words, not on ideas, our discussion very quickly will become off-topic.
Post 12 Nov 2007, 07:52
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
MHajduk wrote:
...it isn't "oxymoron". I proposed to define the world in the terms of fuzzy logic. ...
Wikipedia wrote:
Fuzzy logic is derived from fuzzy set theory dealing with reasoning that is approximate rather than precisely deduced from classical predicate logic.

Do we seek DEFINITIONS which are vague, unclear, mysterious, or "approximate"? NO. Sure not. We seek CLARITY, precision, certainty, and delineation, in our attempt to declare the definition of anything. A definition, by definition, must be NOT fuzzy. That is why your statement, cher MHajduk, represents an oxymoron.
bitRAKE wrote:
It might be beneficial then to understand that all is data, and some of it is code.
If you regard the contents of an eprom as data, rather than instructions for the cpu, then I understand you, but do not share your opinion. Does one define components in terms of our perceptions, or the cpu's interaction? Yes, if we list the output of the eprom, in hexadecimal format, it all appears to represent mere data, an address for example. From the point of view, however, of the cpu, which has just sprung to life, the power having been restored, this is not data to be filtered and analyzed, but rather a sequence of commands to be followed and obeyed. That "datum" in the eprom, the aforementioned address, is not a location which CAN serve as a destination, the cpu MUST direct its attention to that location. By convention, data does not possess such an absolute character. The cpu does not halt execution because of the erroneous value of some data, but it does cease to function if the instructions are incorrect.
sleepsleep wrote:
since we knew "i" is everchanging,...
Perhaps you are correct, I doubt it....
The entire basis of all religions, and all military enterprises, as well as most educational institutions, most governments, most legal systems throughout the world, and all contractual agreements in the realm of commerce, depends upon the antithesis of this sentiment, namely, the constancy of the ego, so that when someone says "I do", and then, the gal next to him also repeats that infamous expression, the marriage is acknowledged, "til death do us part", i.e. UNCHANGING. Can we change our retina? NO. Can we change our motor cortex? NO. Can we adjust our sense of smell? NO. Hearing? nope. Sense of balance? nope. These sensory perceptions, and motor skills deteriorate with age, or the influence of drugs, like alcohol, but they are not plastic, not malleable, not easily modified. Most of our nervous system is "hard wired" from birth.
sleepsleep wrote:
...so, i should regard/account a person base on his past memory or his current perception?
Many religions, but not all, provide for "redemption", or "forgiveness" of real or imaginary "sins". It is difficult to overcome our memory of one's past transgressions, but I appreciate your contemplation of the desirability of looking beyond past indiscretions, and focusing instead on one's current attempt to make amends. Very nice. Wish I could be as forgiving....
vid wrote:

technically said, your self-awareness is switched off, and it makes you feel you are one with everything (you cannot distinguish self from other things), eg. you feel "another, new self".
I suppose it is banal to add my two pfennigs:
Pain = self-awareness;
Pleasure = "feel one with everything";
Post 12 Nov 2007, 10:10
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
tom tobias, yeah, precisely formulated definitions describing objects in terms of fuzzy logic. That is exactly what I mean saying "fuzzy definitions". Smile
Post 12 Nov 2007, 10:39
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