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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
Quote:

and your "starting point" article in no way "suggested" it.


I have suggested it in my "claims".

The starting points links have been provided on your request and are simply for you to get familiar with the issue and some proposed solutions for this issue.

I was pretty much aware that they do not support my claims.
Post 07 Nov 2007, 20:57
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Then i perhaps misread your post. As i understood it, you said that latest scientific evidence suggest these ideas, not you. My bad...
Post 07 Nov 2007, 21:17
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
even if we could comes up with a society that is "everything totally free", but how to deal with human behaviour that want to win, want to be first, or simply just don't want to lose?

i view these behaviours as the "cause" that could produce chaos even if when everything is free to all.

eg. if i play need for speed, if about to be caught by the damn police, i will press ALT + F4 to exit the game abnormally. Very Happy
Post 20 Nov 2007, 22:51
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
sleepsleep: as we said, we people can hack ourselves to become better.

of course, zounds of problem around it, biggest one is that politicians, ecologist, religions, and everyone who has hole his ass will talk scientists how (not) to do this.

evidently, evolution by natural selection no longer works for us, we should do better
Post 21 Nov 2007, 00:13
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
just a quick thought, what, wat if human could live more than 300 hundred years?
maybe that will change the way we live. maybe to use 60 years to study and learning? and eventually change how we view life? with the advancement of biotechnology, this could be possible, maybe in our lifetime.
Post 23 Nov 2007, 22:50
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 57
xanatose
As long as they are humans that believe they are entitled to priviledges, and control others. And other people that believe that they should serve them. Things will not change. The only thing that changes is who is the master and who is the servant.
Post 24 Nov 2007, 19:11
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El Tangas



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 120
Location: Sunset Empire
El Tangas
It's just human nature to be competitve. It's the way of life, quoting Yoda...

Earlier, someone mentioned that our body cells don't compete with each other, except in the case of disease. Yes, it's called cancer.
Because this competition potential is present in all cells, but supressed by a number of mechanisms that are not, and I think can not be, infalible. In a system where no one competes, those who do have the edge, thats why cancer is so nasty. Of course, in the end, the whole body dies, but the cancer cells can't know that...

In fact, the only cells that naturaly compete in our body are sex cells (at least for males, I don't know if ovules have a competition mechanism, wouldn't surprise me). That's because these are the only cells that can reproduce and, in a way, carry on, so they have a motive to compete. Also they are all different genetically.

As for us multicellular beings, we are all just slaves of the competition mechanism. Any system that is anticompetitive is doomed to fail, firstly because it has to compete against competitive systems, and in so doing, automatically acknowledging its inferiority!

IMHO, if we engineered ourselves to be non competive, we would cease to be Human.
Post 25 Nov 2007, 20:35
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cristio



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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cristio
El Tangas wrote:

IMHO, if we engineered ourselves to be non competive, we would cease to be Human.


I will start with this quote, as I think it is excellent as it is candid. This is In My Bold Opinion.
I will use IMBO instead of IMHO, even if I know I am very low in Assembler. However, IMHO seems to me hypocrite.

Also, I have to say I am Bogdan's brother, just for you to know. We used to work together (having companies and owning). Sometimes we agreed to disagree, sometimes just disagreed.

Now on topic: {sorry all, but I will not go for the quotes for each of you know, as I am doing this while getting the bread from children and making some owners rich}

[Bogdan] in an early post, you've said that the PLANET will die; not just yet, ai? remember George Carlin?), only so-called "humanity" will/should DIE in order to just die or, maybe, EVOLVE. This links me to my starting point.

[Vid] I agree with protocols of communication, but in early posts you stick maybe too much to it. Capitalism is just another FORM of EXPLOITATION.
[all] Eastern Europe “communist” societies were just an evolved form of:
- less exploitation from another person, just by the group, but an unaware group
- waaay more equal distribution of goods and services and money (so more equal that we were giving away to poor nations, not like US, and of course our own people were not happy to share with the ones who were poor; because if they starve you starve)
Hey, but because this system was not PERFECT, dr Howard Fine thinks it was worse than capitalism? It was better. Just better. Not GOOD, only better than the rock bottom. Funny enough, IMBO, the system was too evolved for the people and for the times and that’s why it died or collapsed (but you only have to die, don’t ya?). It was too soon for the “humanity” lol-a-lol. Of course, there was also the much needed help from CIA and others, but only to “put down the patient”, otherwise it might have had take 200 yrs or so to die by itself. And by then, the capitalist world as we now know it would have had died. US/CIA/owners just did everything they could to survive (in their natural ‘human’ lives if possible), so they were ready to KILL EVERYTHING in order to achieve this. Russia and the communists were ready to DIE themselves instead of risking Total Annihilation (lol) of “humankind”. They were too evolved also. That’s all.
I am also not preaching them, just observing. I have a somehow different philosophy and that’s why I am writing now and here.
[Sleep] Great name BTW !
You were mentioning leaders. Leaders are very efficient. I can still be one, when I chose too, or when I am STARVING. Efficient in KILLING. Just think about SAS/SEALS whatever you feel close to. 4-6 people, highly specialized that can be a leader each of them and they are in certain circumstances (commander, Medic, sniper, scout, machine gun, LAW). But this is for the DECLARED purpose to KILL. This group is assembled by hard work and a lot (not full) of free-will and prior-agreement of Urgency (if they don’t cooperate fully they will simply die and they are just more aware of that). There is Binding, Trust, they are Team-Building (lol) and they feel each other. Make no mistake: in order to KILL. This is one of the primary goals of groups, right after defending. That’s why I have this *big* problems with groups. Everybody can see how efficient they are if they are small (commando, family); yes, but for what? And then people start thinking about economy of scale (what if there are more to the group). LOL, more slaves and more killers right away.

Back to [Bogdan]:
I like a lot the idea of building houses in a small group, but then I realised: IT’S A GROUP!! (George Carlin could have made a funny out of this, ai?)
How did I realised? When you started talking about thousand of houses, BRRR
(and was triggered by Eugen note about millions of similar cars, brrr)
Although there is something for me in it.

Hey, and that thing about EXCEPTIONS !!! (George Carlin again) 1984 anyone? Maybe a small exception there, maybe under close scrutiny… BY WHO??? (here comes George…) By a few ones, or by the GENERAL ASSEMBLYYY !!!

Going back to thousands of houses done automatically. Hey, we said WITH OUR HANDS, remember. Or their hands. Ok not going back to bushes, but do not give the power to one place, because they are going to get it after is ripe.
I was writing “doing 5 houses for our small group is ok, but 10k houses for all is wrong; if 10k people come to you and you do it for each of them, is ok”. But this is kinda Utopia, isn’t is. I guess this Utopia not being able to reach it makes people so brilliant like you considering giving away technology. Please observe the past in order not to do the same error again and again and again and again.
- another note about giving Sparta as example… they were one of the best for some time, but Best of Slave owners. 10 000 Spartans and 100 000 slaves, huh? Please elaborate.
Also related to technology: you were quoting Tesla (not the happiest example, ai?): “Science is but a perversion of itself unless it has as its ultimate goal the betterment of humanity.” To me, this is betterment of the owners. Humanity is nothing; A HUMAN BEING is forgotten because of “the humanity” (F* the Humanity)

IMBO: Let’s start one by one (of course, with ourselves). Then do it for the ones that come to us. Do not try to use the Save.All routine before we have a soul to save. Let’s build our first game unit (Bogdan and Eugen), then improve it. Then second and so on. Later on we can think of macros and frameworks. No good an empty framework, ai? And yes, that’s my opinion, of course and not Humble (F* IMHO, just for the fun of it Embarassed )

Apologize for the long-long post. I was just reading it all (Bogdan is to blame Razz ) and this is my reply to the entire thread.
Post 10 Dec 2007, 16:33
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Hey, but because this system was not PERFECT, dr Howard Fine thinks it was worse than capitalism? It was better. Just better. Not GOOD, only better than the rock bottom.

It was better in some areas, worse in other. Of course there are reasons to explore, often external and not caused by system. Economically it was more fair, but it didn't give people what they wanted (freedom, or at least illusion of freedom). People were not exploited in socialism felt unhappy about it, and now when they are exploited, they are more happy. There's something wrong with this, but the fact remains, people weren't happy with that system.

Quote:
Funny enough, IMBO, the system was too evolved for the people and for the times and that’s why it died or collapsed (but you only have to die, don’t ya?). It was too soon for the “humanity” lol-a-lol. Of course, there was also the much needed help from CIA and others, but only to “put down the patient”, otherwise it might have had take 200 yrs or so to die by itself. And by then, the capitalist world as we now know it would have had died. US/CIA/owners just did everything they could to survive (in their natural ‘human’ lives if possible), so they were ready to KILL EVERYTHING in order to achieve this. Russia and the communists were ready to DIE themselves instead of risking Total Annihilation (lol) of “humankind”. They were too evolved also. That’s all.

Basically i agree - idea of system was too ahead for mankind, and "implementation" of system failed in many points too. And yes, CIA & co. helped this system to fail greatly too, but it weren't just them. Something was wrong: maybe it was too soon, maybe just people in socialist goverments screwed it, maybe capitalism simply overpowered socialism, most likely all of this played it's role. Fact is that system failed.

Now it's our job to keep trying to make world better place for all people. That history is (in)valuable experience.
Post 10 Dec 2007, 17:30
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cristio



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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Location: Egypt/Cairo or Bucharest/Romania
cristio
vid wrote:
Quote:
Hey, but because this system was not PERFECT, dr Howard Fine thinks it was worse than capitalism? It was better. Just better. Not GOOD, only better than the rock bottom.

It was better in some areas, worse in other.


Just for the sake of argument, pls humor me with one example where the system was WORSE than the Kapitalism.

Remember, i don't say it was GOOD (as if it such thing exists), i am saying was just better than Kapitalism.

And, please, don't say that the people's perception was that it was worse, it was just miss representation. I was one of them (and so were you, it seems to me) and i agree i was thinking that it was worse. 20 years later i know better (a little bit better, but still better).

regards from sunny Egypt, where ppl live on less than 1$ / day, for us to get better houses and homes. and those are the ones who still live, others just die from HUNGER as we speak/write. and Egypt is paradise for ppl from Sudan and such.

I bet dr. Fine says it has nothing to do with him... as most of us are. we just turn a blind eye for the poor and needy, and keep the open eye for the better off.
is this Humanity?
if, yes f* it. f* me for still doin' it, but i am working my way out.
as this is a state of emergency, i am ready to accept help from anyone, even groups, but limited to the emergency status
Post 11 Dec 2007, 10:48
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Just for the sake of argument, pls humor me with one example where the system was WORSE than the Kapitalism.
...
And, please, don't say that the people's perception was that it was worse, it was just miss representation.

That is exactly the reason. Even if it was people's misperception, still it was system's failure to explain itself to people, and defend against misrepresentation from it's enemies. System didn't suceed in persuading people it is good. Because of that, it wasn't "mass movement" any longer, which was prequisite for it's existence, and so it became corrupted.

There were other things which were worse, for example freedom of speech was undoubtely lesser than at west. Again, I don't say socialism was worse than capitalism, I say it wasn't better in every single area - that's nonsense.

Quote:
I was one of them (and so were you, it seems to me) and i agree i was thinking that it was worse. 20 years later i know better (a little bit better, but still better).

No, i'm 21. Hope that doesn't degrade my argumentation in your eyes. I talked a lot with people about it, and I have ideas what people's ideas were then, and what are now. Many people like were told lies when socialism was being changed to capitalism, and now they like socialism more. Many people like it more now, "in the wild"
Post 11 Dec 2007, 11:46
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cristio



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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cristio
vid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the sake of argument, pls humor me with one example where the system was WORSE than the Kapitalism.
...
And, please, don't say that the people's perception was that it was worse, it was just miss representation.

That is exactly the reason. Even if it was people's misperception, still it was system's failure to explain itself to people, and defend against misrepresentation from it's enemies. System didn't suceed in persuading people it is good. Because of that, it wasn't "mass movement" any longer, which was prequisite for it's existence, and so it became corrupted.


Here you DO NOT convince me, maybe you miss the point (however the next argument of yours says otherwise): you just prove that it was wrong by itself, not that it was worse than Kapitalism. System not succeeding in persuading people that is a good system -- IS ACTUALLY A GOOD POINT! people were not living in a lie, they knew far more than in Kapitalismus. Kapitalismus succeeds largely by misleading people.


vid wrote:

There were other things which were worse, for example freedom of speech was undoubtely lesser than at west. Again, I don't say socialism was worse than capitalism, I say it wasn't better in every single area - that's nonsense.

- a better point here, still somehow misleading. On the surface it seemed that way, but what is freedom of speech? We could have talked (and we did) about counter- revolution and nobody was even put to prison, not to say killed. Just check with K-USA, or other "benevolent tyrants", or "democratic and free" Iraqi. There was no penalty by death, no Waco no wars (save the Russians). So, again: it was BAD, but just a little bit better than kapitalismus.

vid wrote:
Quote:
I was one of them (and so were you, it seems to me) and i agree i was thinking that it was worse. 20 years later i know better (a little bit better, but still better).

No, i'm 21. Hope that doesn't degrade my argumentation in your eyes. I talked a lot with people about it, and I have ideas what people's ideas were then, and what are now. Many people like were told lies when socialism was being changed to capitalism, and now they like socialism more. Many people like it more now, "in the wild"


Doesn't degrade your argumentation, just says the truth about you and about your experience. Your experience IS, just that is with other are saying and remembering. You are, I am. plain. your perception about the issue is different, that's only normal.
Post 11 Dec 2007, 13:48
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Here you DO NOT convince me, maybe you miss the point (however the next argument of yours says otherwise): you just prove that it was wrong by itself, not that it was worse than Kapitalism. System not succeeding in persuading people that is a good system -- IS ACTUALLY A GOOD POINT! people were not living in a lie, they knew far more than in Kapitalismus. Kapitalismus succeeds largely by misleading people.

This is pretty philosophical question: What's better? People happily living in system which lies to them (and thus makes them content), or people living in system which tells truth, and pissed at that system? I don't dare to answer, but history showed that for many people living "blindfolded" and content was better option. Maybe in 200-300 years...

Quote:
- a better point here, still somehow misleading. On the surface it seemed that way, but what is freedom of speech? We could have talked (and we did) about counter- revolution and nobody was even put to prison, not to say killed. Just check with K-USA, or other "benevolent tyrants", or "democratic and free" Iraqi. There was no penalty by death, no Waco no wars (save the Russians). So, again: it was BAD, but just a little bit better than kapitalismus.

I know several cases of people put to prison and thrown out of school just because being drunk and bitching about politics. This wouldn't happen in west. Much fewer people were killed / persecuted for their opinions in west too.

It is a fact that west didn't have to opress personal freedom of speech, because it had control over massmedia propaganda and so most people didn't have information to talk "dangerous" stuff. But still, personal freedom of speech was better there, thanks to massive propaganda.

This is nice example of how system can't be better in all areas. Either you have massive propaganda and don't have to opress freedom of speech, or otherwise. I don't like this, but it is a fact - people are more content with first option.

PS: It's "capitalism" in english, non-slavic people may not understand.
Post 11 Dec 2007, 17:45
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cristio



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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cristio
vid wrote:
Quote:
Here you DO NOT convince me, maybe you miss the point (however the next argument of yours says otherwise): you just prove that it was wrong by itself, not that it was worse than Kapitalism. System not succeeding in persuading people that is a good system -- IS ACTUALLY A GOOD POINT! people were not living in a lie, they knew far more than in Kapitalismus. Kapitalismus succeeds largely by misleading people.

This is pretty philosophical question: What's better? People happily living in system which lies to them (and thus makes them content), or people living in system which tells truth, and pissed at that system? I don't dare to answer, but history showed that for many people living "blindfolded" and content was better option. Maybe in 200-300 years...
Of course is philosophical, er? let's not forget the topic here... My view is that truth is better always, just let ppl decide, do not presume anything else. Hey, history did not show in any way your "better option" - no way.

vid wrote:
Quote:
- a better point here, still somehow misleading. On the surface it seemed that way, but what is freedom of speech? We could have talked (and we did) about counter- revolution and nobody was even put to prison, not to say killed. Just check with K-USA, or other "benevolent tyrants", or "democratic and free" Iraqi. There was no penalty by death, no Waco no wars (save the Russians). So, again: it was BAD, but just a little bit better than kapitalismus.

I know several cases of people put to prison and thrown out of school just because being drunk and bitching about politics. This wouldn't happen in west. Much fewer people were killed / persecuted for their opinions in west too.
with the risk of offending you, I dOUBt that you personally know such people and that the representation is real. I know that people died also, but far less than in kapitalism. you don't say a word about Waco Iraqi and so on. As for me I was in an anti-socialist/anti-government group, been caught and interogated. i was in high-school. and I CRIED AND CRIED during interogation. the fear was unbelievable and my father was sitting next to me, thinking he is a finished man and i am destroyed. or whatever was he thinking then. I JUST CRIED, no more humanity there. and they LET ME GO. no strings attached for me (just for my father, heh). and they did listen our phone. and 5 years later i was trying to get weapons. after "revolution' i was editing a book about victims of 'komunism' and I CRIED for them also, while entering and correcting the text. for the kid who hang-himself. BUT, i am just saying it was a little better. not good at all.


vid wrote:

It is a fact that west didn't have to opress personal freedom of speech, because it had control over massmedia propaganda and so most people didn't have information to talk "dangerous" stuff. But still, personal freedom of speech was better there, thanks to massive propaganda.

it is not a FACT what you say, West did oppress and more (that's were from the first "comunists' learned oppresion and violence)
there is no personal freedom of speech when you are just allowed to talk s*hit or lie. for truth-tellers there is just death:quick or slow

vid wrote:

This is nice example of how system can't be better in all areas. Either you have massive propaganda and don't have to opress freedom of speech, or otherwise. I don't like this, but it is a fact - people are more content with first option.
this is just an example that systems are all bad.

vid wrote:
PS: It's "capitalism" in english, non-slavic people may not understand.


hey, i hope here that you are joking as i was with this *kapitalismus*. let me frame it:
- i told you take too serious "definitions"
- i am no slavic, thanks but no thanks
- Kapitalismus is not a slavic word
- the term comes from... Das Kapital... and yes, it was in german
- it was just a funny name for me
Post 11 Dec 2007, 21:50
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vid
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vid
Quote:
with the risk of offending you, I dOUBt that you personally know such people and that the representation is real.

I do. Guy spent year in prison for reason I mentioned earlier, was thrown out of university, and had to pay huge bribe to get back afterwards. Of course there were people not persecuted for bigger "crimes", but still there was multitude persecutied for too openly expressing their opinions.

Quote:
I know that people died also, but far less than in kapitalism. you don't say a word about Waco Iraqi and so on.

I agree, using any criteria, capitalism killed more people than socialism. But not because they expressed their opinions. More people were killed by socialism for expressing their opinion, than by capitalism.

Quote:
BUT, i am just saying it was a little better. not good at all.
may be, but not better in everything. There were areas in which capitalism was better, and areas in which socialism was better. System just can't be better in all areas, it's all about choosing smaller evil.

Quote:
there is no personal freedom of speech when you are just allowed to talk s*hit or lie. for truth-tellers there is just death:quick or slow

You'd have to evidence that. I do know about many people persecuted in socialism for expressing opinions, but not many in capitalism. And I know about many people in west who openly disagree with regime, and they keep writing, everyone leaves them be (because no one listens to them, but that is different matter).

Sorry about capitalism / kapitalismus, it sounded pretty slavic to me. My idea was that chinese people for example might not see why C<->K, and what is that "us" at the end.
Post 11 Dec 2007, 22:11
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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xanatose
vid wrote:

You'd have to evidence that. I do know about many people persecuted in socialism for expressing opinions, but not many in capitalism.


Sorry to interrupt. But killing on the for expressing opinions does occur at the USA. And so does goverment sanction killing. The only difference is that in USSR they did it more openly, while USA did it more coverly. For example Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Bobby Kennedy, John Lenon, Plus hundreths if not tousands of nameless persons. And many more disappar.

What about chile, when a socialist president won, the CIA helped Pinochet to kill the president, say that it was suicide.

How about the political prisioners, we Puerto Ricans have in the USA? Theur crime ranging from puting out flag to saying "Viva Puerto Rico Libre!". Yes, there are still political prisioners in the USA.

How about Argentina. When the goverment followed the suggestions of the world bank, there where protest, and there where massive arrest and killings by the police.

Thus represion is not a comunist thing, nor a capitalist thing, But comes out of having a goverment. The more powers the goverment has, the less power the people have. Until there will be a small group of Masters and all the rest SLAVES.
Post 12 Dec 2007, 01:03
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LocoDelAssembly
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LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

How about Argentina. When the goverment followed the suggestions of the world bank, there where protest, and there where massive arrest and killings by the police.

Do you mean the 2001 crisis? Note that if you mean the episode that took place at December 2001, the protest was to make the president resign his position. Very hard time that was, even all the people got confiscated its own money they have on their bank accounts with the so called "corralito" some days before that massive protest. Many people dead because of this, not only by the shock that produces to the human body see how you loose the money that cost you a lot of work and sacrifices to earn and save, but also because the justice many times was too slow to "unlock" the bank accounts to be used for special cases like medical care (the appeals for legal protection was person by person). This government action was illegal by three reasons: one, the economy minister enjoyed "super powers" conceded by the congress (but still not allowed by the Constitution), second, there was a law that stated that the bank accounts are untouchable, and third, by all means it was an unconstitutional action.

People died by the police in that protest and in the period where the interim president (so not elected by the people and the last one of the I don't remember anymore how many interim presidents were before him), was in command (not counting things that are not published). The social crisis was terrible those days, and actually we are still bad but surely better than those days but, thanks to shitty politics we are not as good as we should now (in average poor salaries, lots of inflation in price of even basic needs, deep insecurity that the government hardly admits and claim that doesn't exists and that is just a sensation, mediocre public hospitals, taxation of quasi-socialist country without any single benefit except for free public university, lies like biasing the official statistics to pretend have less inflation that we really have which drops our international credibility VERY much, etc, etc).

At least in my country, before deciding if capitalism or socialism is better, I think that we need to get people that we can trust first because honest politics almost no exists and the very few that exists have too few power on this rotten government that can't never do anything. Also, although a somewhat unpatriotic comment from my part, being less "Argentinians" would be a good start, but so far almost all of the inhabitants does some illegal thing, cheat someone else, abuse of someone else, always tries to do the less work as possible and many times incorrectly, always expecting that someone else do the job that they could do by their selfs, etc. The "almost all" is the sum of all what I said, not that every person always fulfills all those "qualities" (but hardly only one), and note that does not apply only from medium to poor class but to ALL levels of social status.

I hope I don't bored too much people with all this.
Post 12 Dec 2007, 03:24
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vid
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vid
Thanks for insight Loco, really appreciated - I had no idea about things going on in Argentina.

By the way, do we have here someone from China? I'd like some firsthand account, because things i heard about life there varied greatly..
Post 12 Dec 2007, 11:10
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i keep thinking this.
somehow what happened to me now is, i seldom reject people, and that makes me really busy, coz in order to help solving their problem.

of course, i don't want a life like this, but, somehow i couldn't escape from this cycle....
Post 22 Dec 2007, 14:48
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6034
Location: Poland
MHajduk
vid wrote:
By the way, do we have here someone from China?
Of course, for example Kevin_Zheng from Shanghai (http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=4074&start=40).
Post 22 Dec 2007, 15:38
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