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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
Quote:
I will never understand why such topics are allowed on a technical forum.

why not? it's a technical problem, we are slaves by an other way than explicit slavery, it means that slavery is a procedure that have a lot of label to call it!
Quote:
You hack? Hahha a reason for more security and control, they make more money (trust me I work here). Every hacker is a gold mine...stupid but a gold mine... please hack more you **** ...

yes we hack, what is the problem there, hacking is like reading books, but remember, the beginning of the books, not everybody can read, not everybody got the right to read too
if reading is a reason for more security and control, it simply means that human is naturally stupid, hacking is not a danger for anybody, perhaps for bank accounts but accounts are not people!!
Quote:
I am afraid I won't live long enough to see next stage of society, whatever it will be

it will be the same as always, money controling no money, property like chains, yes youre property is a chain, your car, your home, your money, all these things are remote control and you are the controled machine. why cannot i travel as i want? because i live somewhere and i cannot leave my place for several years and be sure to easily find a new place were to live.
a car is one of the things that can be used for freedom but it depends too much of law, inssurance, petrol, technical control, owner card
this freedom engine is in fact like a barre code!
Post 29 Oct 2007, 11:46
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
Quote:

they could arrest you for terrorism. Deport you to a secret dungeon, without right of attourney. This happens know in the USA.

Man, you guys just take an idea and run with it, don't you? I don't know how this could possibly happen to any US citizen and I have never heard of it either. Note: US citizen.

Also, the idea of capitalism, or any form of government/society, making us slaves to money; if it wasn't in the form of paper or coin it would be animal hides or food. It has always existed and always will. This is life and you should get used to it. Instead of looking for someone to hand it to you, go out and get it.

It's funny how someone said everyone under communism had a house and everyone had a job. What kind of house and what kind of car and just how happy were they? And is it true? And there were no criminals? Please.

Everything I read here is such a stretch. I went from middle class to poor when I was on my own (but not living on the street) to very well off. Going from poor to middle class took a year. From middle class to well off, about seven more. Looking back, it wasn't hard at all, but you must want to. If you sit back and wait for it, it will never come.

I tell my kids, make things happen or things will happen to you. Instead of fighting imaginary dragons, you guys should do the same.
Post 29 Oct 2007, 13:18
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2906
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
drhowarddrfine wrote:

Everything I read here is such a stretch. I went from middle class to poor when I was on my own (but not living on the street) to very well off. Going from poor to middle class took a year. From middle class to well off, about seven more. Looking back, it wasn't hard at all, but you must want to. If you sit back and wait for it, it will never come.
You did this on your own? Just hard work, right?
Post 29 Oct 2007, 15:02
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
Code:
bull_work:
capitalism:
slavery:
communism:
socialism:
nazism:
eugenism:
terrorism:
       mov eax,people
       mov ebx,power
       mov ecx,money
       mov edx,hopeness
       call extract_energy
       call consommation
       call prison
       call fear
       call submission
;add more code there
       ret
    
Post 29 Oct 2007, 15:36
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8870
Location: ˛                             ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣Posts: 334455
sleepsleep
Quote:
but does my purchasing power support the oppression of others -- that bothers me.

i really like above sentence.

Quote:
Oh, my Chinese astrology sign is an Ox.

ha ha Razz

Quote:
you can be sure that those "chosen few" don't have to work like bulls
maybe they had worked like bulls before they achieve the status "chosen few" ?

let say everything is free now, would it be good to human?
assume, "some magical power" will prepare all the electronic gadgets, food, building, entertainment, transport and etc.

would human then satisfied?
if the main problem is "unsatisfizable unlimited human desire", would there be a cure for such problem?
Post 30 Oct 2007, 10:53
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2906
Location: [RSP+8*5]
bitRAKE
sleepsleep wrote:
if the main problem is "unsatisfizable unlimited human desire", would there be a cure for such problem?
You have defined a situation with no solution. Live in misery or die.

Luckily, desire is not confined (especially the unlimited type) as to be unsatisfiable. Confined desire becomes something else - regret.
Post 30 Oct 2007, 13:38
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
It's funny how someone said everyone under communism had a house and everyone had a job. What kind of house and what kind of car and just how happy were they? And is it true?

yeah, it is true.
what kind of car? worser than rich minority in west, but better than poor majority. If you have to make enough cars for everyone, you must sacriface quality to quantity. It was same with other types of goods.

Quote:
And there were no criminals? Please.

According to statistics for slovakia, number of criminal acts increased to 300% in few years after fall of socialism, and solved criminal acts decreased from 85% to about 50%. Another thing is what these criminal acts were. There was no mafia, no gangs, no drugs, and streets WERE "safe" at any time or place.
Post 30 Oct 2007, 14:20
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
It's funny how someone said everyone under communism had a house and everyone had a job. What kind of house and what kind of car and just how happy were they? And is it true?

yeah, it is true.
what kind of car? worser than rich minority in west, but better than poor majority. If you have to make enough cars for everyone, you must sacriface quality to quantity. It was same with other types of goods.

Quote:
And there were no criminals? Please.

According to statistics for slovakia, number of criminal acts increased to 300% in few years after fall of socialism, and solved criminal acts decreased from 85% to about 50%. Another thing is what these criminal acts were. There was no mafia, no gangs, no drugs, and streets WERE "safe" at any time or place.
Post 30 Oct 2007, 14:36
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
bitRAKE wrote:
drhowarddrfine wrote:

Everything I read here is such a stretch. I went from middle class to poor when I was on my own (but not living on the street) to very well off. Going from poor to middle class took a year. From middle class to well off, about seven more. Looking back, it wasn't hard at all, but you must want to. If you sit back and wait for it, it will never come.
You did this on your own? Just hard work, right?
What happened was I had a job with a union where I worked "on call" filling in for people who went on vacation, sick days, etc. Pay was very good but someone asked me to do something very minor but illegal (really not that big a deal). But this person was very influential and I found I was no longer being called for work.

I sat back for a year thinking I would get this job back but it never happened. I had to go to my parents and borrow a few dollars just so I could eat. I never went anywhere or did anything. My unemployment check covered rent and enough food for about six days of the week. I remember once running out of gas and buying 24 cents worth. Laughing

So I kept looking through the newspaper and finally found a somewhat related job to what I was doing. I despised it and you could tell. I finally was fired within six months. Out of work, I moved in with my parents ( was about 23). Soon after, I found a non-union position in my field. Someone found an application I had sent them two years before and thought I was the most qualified. I worked there several years before finding a better one, which led to a better one, which led to my favorite position I ever had. I worked 50 hours a week and was considered by my boss "the best electronic engineer he ever knew".

After working there for a few years, I earned enough to buy into a fast food franchise. From that income I wound up owning five. Since then I've sold three and own two, still.

The hardest job I've ever had was running those restaurants. Anyone who ever complains about "fat cat" business owners and the vacations they take, big houses, nice cars, etc. are totally unaware of the sacrifices we make. I worked 60-80 hours per week for 10 years, never going on vacation and missing some of the joys of my two boys growing up.

And this doesn't include the frustrations with getting people to do their work. The inevitable lawsuits from people I don't even know about things I never heard of or outrageously stupid things. It once cost me $4000 to defend myself against a lawsuit that a judge refused to hear because it was so stupid. (Too much detail to explain but you would not believe how stupid it was.)

I was rarely home. So don't begrudge me when now I take my family to Hawaii for a week.

And don't think those guys with the million dollar salaries don't work as hard or harder than I do. The sacrifices are enormous. Granted, some don't deserve it, but most do. No one gets rich without lots of hard work and sacrifice.

Not that I think I'm rich. My employees say that I am but it's all relative.
Post 31 Oct 2007, 20:00
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
And don't think those guys with the million dollar salaries don't work as hard or harder than I do. The sacrifices are enormous. Granted, some don't deserve it, but most do. No one gets rich without lots of hard work and sacrifice.

Problem we are talking about is that they don't work 250'000 times harder than 12year old children who work for 4$ somewhere in asia.

Yeah, I agree company owners pretty often put in more effort than regular workers, but their salaries are much higher compared to workers than their effort is.
Post 31 Oct 2007, 22:33
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
I do not know how to say this in "nice words". So i will say it openly and truly from my heart:

Simplu put: you are a criminal, justifying you actions by "I had to do it or otherwise I would be poor..."

I was close to do what you did... I was lucky enough to wake up in due time.

In our world the resources we have are fixed. With a growing population things are even worst. The more rich and successful you are the more people suffer and die somewhere on this planet because of your actions.

Children and womans and mothers and fathers just like you and your family.

Quote:

I was rarely home. So don't begrudge me when now I take my family to Hawaii for a week.


Oh but I do...

You were not home being busy to use some slave workers and now you want my sympathy for your actions?

Besides your children (ha ha ha "your" do you really "own" them also?)
are supposed to be able to live their life on their own. You can no live for them and most important you can not use you family as an excuse for your crimes.


Quote:

And don't think those guys with the million dollar salaries don't work as hard or harder than I do.


Oh but I do not "think" this, I do know for sure.

They do nothing but use slaves... and make dreams and plans about how to use slaves better.

Yes they do "run around" in circles convincing slaves to work for them, forcing if they attempt not to obey... "hard work" my ass...

The hard work is done by the dumb slaves that wash dishes in you money collecting facility.

Quote:

The sacrifices are enormous.


YES they are: You do sacrifice your SOUL and any chanches of your evolution. Your sacrifice your intelligence and creativity. You become hypocrite and you try to convince other to be also.
You destroy countless other lifes. You use slaves and you doom any chance of evolution of this planet and race...

Indeed great sacrifices... for a few (million) dollars more.

Quote:

Granted, some don't deserve it, but most do.


They deserve a polite logical disgust for such abominations, a clear logical explanation why their actions are unacceptable for an inteligent beeing and how is it possible that a human falls so low as to do this kind of actions.

They are all criminals in front of the universe and existence BUT they are heroes and perfectly ok and legal actions in front of human capitalistic organizations.

Quote:

No one gets rich without lots of hard work and sacrifice.


YES... Sacrifice of OTHERS, hard work of OTHERS...

Quote:

Not that I think I'm rich. My employees say that I am but it's all relative.


Oh dear ... I will let the intelligence of the reader understand this phrase of yours... it is a sum of hypocrisy and a marvel of stupidity.
Post 31 Oct 2007, 23:00
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
bogdanonatu: too harsh words i think. Instead of zealoting, you rather should try to explain. I will try to explain your view for others: (hope i got it right)

Everyone who is living above global average (virtually everyone in so-called "western world") can be considered exploiting those which are under average. Some people often produce equal value and work equally hard as others, but they get smaller share of produced vaue. And other groups of people get bigger share (via employing, international debts, foreign trade, etc...) on their behalf.

From viewpoint of those who get less than fair share, it surely is an exploitation. From viewpoint of those who get bigger share, it is not exploitation:

In case of businessmen, either you are emplyed, or you employ someone. Employing is better possibility. And of course, if you employ someone, you cannot him pay back for all value that he produced: such system just wouldn't work.

Even less it can be considered exploitation by employed people who just happened to be born in exploiting part of world, like me. Yes, we can live better only because someone somewhere lives worser, but we didn't cause this situation. Are we responsible?

If I belonged to the "exploited group", i would be surely pretty pissed off. No wonder these exploited people in are looking for alternatives, like socialism (communism).
Post 31 Oct 2007, 23:26
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
vid wrote:

Everyone who is living above global average (virtually everyone in so-called "western world") can be considered exploiting those which are under average. Some people often produce equal value and work equally hard as others, but they get smaller share of produced vaue.
I agree with both vid and bogdan regarding the central thrust of their arguments. Further, I think Dr. Fine, that you are probably not as selfish a person as someone may have imagined on first reading. For one thing, it was very decent of you to come forth, and elaborate your point of view. I appreciate that aspect of your conduct, though I find myself in profound disagreement with much of what you have written, particularly your initial expression of displeasure concerning the appropriateness of debating social issues on the FASM forum...Think about this: were it not for FASM, this forum would not exist, neither the technical part, nor the social fabric. But FASM itself is a repudiation of MASM, isn't it!!! There is an innate dismissal of capitalist ideology in the existance of FASM, that's why I have supported it. Socialism, not to disagree with the tenor of vid's arguments above, is NOT simply about economics, oh, to be sure, the Paris Communards were surely interested as well in a more egalitarian distribution of wealth, and a distribution more in accord with the effort expended in procuring society's wealth, however, socialism transcends mere financial considerations. Socialism addresses mankind's goals and lofty aspirations. I would recommend Jack London's books to anyone who doubts this premise. Laissez faire capitalism, as Dr. Fine espouses, works very well for the healthy, wealthy, and wise. It does not work as well for the impoverished, the sick, those with diminished mental faculties, those of us with one foot in the grave, and those of us recently arrived on the planet earth. Socialism is not a formula or a prescription or a medication, it is only an ideal, and like all ideals, depends on good will, education, and empathy for those less fortunate than ourselves, to succeed. Capitalism has the advantage that it operates in harmony with man's baser instincts: survival of the fittest--the hell with everyone else, "ME FIRST", as Ronald Reagan was fond of saying.
One way around this imbroglio, this "infernal" debate between Dr. Fine and Bogdan, would be this: Dr. Fine owns several restaurants: he undoubtedly uses computers to manage operations. He is clever, and intelligent. He seeks to REDUCE his labor, and improve his productivity, so as to spend LESS time managing his restaurant, and more time fishing in Hawaii. I suggest that it would be useful for Dr. Fine to send Bogdan a few thousand dollars as downpayment for a SOL based accounting system. In that way, we can blend capitalist ideology, with pragmatic assistance for those with talent, but very limited economic resources....We can also observe, were this transaction to occur, a benefit of this FASM forum, in addressing not only technical issues, but also those very same social issues, about which Dr. Fine so adamently expressed disapproval at the outset of this thread.
Smile
Post 01 Nov 2007, 11:04
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vid
Verbosity in development


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Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Of course i agree that socialism is about more. But I wasn't talking about socialism here, I was talking about problems with capitalism. Socialism is just one of alternatives.

Quote:
I would recommend Jack London's books to anyone who doubts this premise

Jack London? Wasn't he the guy writing about nature, alaska, etc... ?

Quote:
Laissez faire capitalism, as Dr. Fine espouses, works very well for the healthy, wealthy, and wise. It does not work as well for the impoverished, the sick, those with diminished mental faculties, those of us with one foot in the grave, and those of us recently arrived on the planet earth.

Only partly true. Another very important factor you forgot to mention is which social class you belong to. As I said earlier, people born in ghetto without any education have much worser chance to become successfull in their career than people brought up in middle class or high class family, even if they are more "potent". Not impossible, but very small chance, few exceptions doesn't change the rule. So capitalism isn't fair chance for anyone, best one wins, no. You are born into social class, and your future/education/income can be very well predicted just from this fact.

Quote:
Capitalism has the advantage that it operates in harmony with man's baser instincts: survival of the fittest--the hell with everyone else, "ME FIRST", as Ronald Reagan was fond of saying.

Entire history of civilization is about NOT living in harmony with natural standards, but making our own, better, standards. Natural living is killing each other, trying to gain as much as possible, having as many children as possible, etc. etc. Capitalism is more in harmony with instincts than, let's say, socialism, but much less than previous social systems were.
Post 01 Nov 2007, 14:00
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
Why do we attempt to be masters over more than we need? Is this out of fear, a learned response, or the nature of things? Is there a level of control that serves both the individual and society as a whole? How could such a level of control be maintained?

We are most certainly doomed as all civilizations before us.
Post 01 Nov 2007, 15:17
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
vid wrote:
Jack London? Wasn't he the guy writing about nature, alaska, etc... ?
http://london.sonoma.edu/Essays/philosophy.html
Joseph Sciambra wrote:

London's time in the canneries and jute mills, his knowledge of child labor, and the horrendous working conditions in most factories, made Marx's theories a viable alternative. London's concern for the working Man, lead him to advocate socialism. In "The War of the Classes," he wrote:
"The community branded me a "red shirt" because I stood for municipal ownership...And far be it from me to deny that socialism is a menace. It is it purpose to wipe out, root and branch, all capitalistic institutions of present day society. It is distinctively revolutionary, and in scope and depth is vastly more tremendous than any revolution that has ever occurred in the history of the world."
London's desire for a socialist revolution came to fruition in The Iron Heel <../Writings/IronHeel/> (1908). The Iron Heel is a fictionalized account about the masses overthrowing the capitalist oligarchy in America. The book has often been confused with the Bolshevik Revolution though London was writing specifically about America, not Russia.
For more information on Jack London and his sociological writing, see Philip S. Foner, The Social Writings of Jack London; and Jack London, The People of the Abyss <../Writings/PeopleOfTheAbyss/>.
Post 01 Nov 2007, 18:22
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
I'm not arguing with Bogdan, or anybody for that matter. I'm stating as it is. Bogdan seems to feel that by my mere employing people that makes them slaves and me some rich master who is also a baby-killer. As someone said above, somebody has to create the businesses for people to work at or you will have no work. Somebody has to come up with the ideas, make the plans, get things started. It can't be a decision by committee. Or it can, but the decision will not be forward thinking and will fit to a lower denominator.

If no one gains anything by working harder, then people won't work harder or come up with new ideas or products or easier methods or things that are necessary for others (what's in it for me? I should work fo ryou?).

Do you work to live or live to work? You must work to live, whether it's for a company or on a patch of land you farm for food. But then that makes you the employer if you need extra help. Does that make yu a slave driver, too?

It's interesting there is so much anti-capitalist sentiment when the great civilizations were, in one form or another, capitalist. The most slave-driven societies were those of socialism and communism. I'm not aware of any countries that stand to the front that are either.

The reason I think there is no need for this type of forum here is because there are many other boards on the 'net for this type of talk and I think this is just a distraction.
Post 02 Nov 2007, 00:28
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
drhowarddrfine wrote:

I'm not arguing with Bogdan, or anybody for that matter. I'm stating as it is.


Neither am I. I simply use logic and intelligence. I can not be convinced by myths and manipulation. First because I have the experience of life in both capitalism and socialism/communism but more important because I think for myself.

Strange as I might look to you I am an individualist not an communist.

I will like to use this opportunity and apologize for my harsh words toward you. The only reason was to make you understand by yourself. I see now this will never happen and probably there is no chance that a big majority will ever understand.

I will use logic below, I hope it is not very harsh again. If it is... then I ask for your forgiveness... it is simply that I do try to find a solution to this human race problem.


Quote:

Bogdan seems to feel that by my mere employing people that makes them slaves and me some rich master who is also a baby-killer.


It is not "feel" it is simple logic.

They work for you and you give them less than the value of their work minus required expenses. Hence you exploit their need to have a decent life to your own advantage. It is clearly seen because you have a better life than they have. You need to hide behind "good intentions" for my family, group, state or nation; behind better education and more work and sacrifices.

Of course that they also benefit from this work when compared with people with no place where to be "slaves" or for "workers" from less fortunate nations.

But overall it is slavery and poverty and lack of resources for them that indirectly results in disease and premature death and frustration and violence and then criminal acts and even terrorism. The logical chain is clear.

Of course some of them are "good" and use their internal energy and understanding in order to fight against those "natural" tendency. Most succeed. But your actions and capitalism put am unneeded pressure on them toward the "bad" parts of existence.

Quote:

As someone said above, somebody has to create the businesses for people to work at or you will have no work.


He who said that was deeply wrong.

Why? It is clear that it works out corectly without "somebody" in communism or socialism.

We all have common needs: house, food, water, electricity, medical care, technology, internet, transportation, science, etc

We can all understand that one must work to full fill those needs at least for a while until we can find some ways to automate this needs. But until then we must all work together for everybody's benefit in equal parts... and not for "somebody".

This should be our target: "not to work". To be able to become creative some day and let machines perform "work"... with occasional fixup when needed.

But NOT to work for somebody and not to benefit from slaves...that is NEVER acceptable.

It is in fact more acceptable to die than to work for "somebody"...unfortunately we do not have this courage (including me) ...

The ones that ever had this kind of courage have been killed.

Quote:

Somebody has to come up with the ideas, make the plans, get things started.


NO. I will do it for free instead ;P

Really there are many creative people that will do it for free IF they know that their work will not be for the benefit of "some". For the benefit of mankind I would design OSes, make electronic circuits, make electrical appliances, work in mechanical workshops, risk my like undergrounds, wipe the old peoples ass out of shit, perform medical research or experiment on my own body...

I would do anything you can think about.

For capitalisms... Bleah, I have only disgust and although I work 10x faster than any other worker on earth, although my intelligence is 10x greater than most other humans, although I can break any protection, although I can do things non imaginable...

I will simply stand in disgust even if they highly value me.

Yes when I need food "I go out and get it" because I do have the super skills and intelligence and power... but I know when to stop and realize than my actions probably have killed 100 children in Africa or Asia or India... and have also made some big fat ass and his children extra rich and extra powerful.

Such is life on this planet I say...

I eat, get a new laptop (dual core Razz) fuck some extra super nice naked model girl...enjoy and also cry in my soul... and say: Should I take the offer from existence and leave them as they are?... probably I should

But here I am full of compassion trying to make you understand.

I am one example but i think that taken out from the pressure stream of capitalism and groups most people become Einstein or Michelangelo or Leonardo.

I know we will have to suffer a lot for the ones already used with "bad" but that is the GIFT of thousand of years of slavery and later capitalism for us.

But crime disappeared pretty fast in communism not because it was punished but instead because it was not rewarded like in capitalism.

What to do with crime money if everybody has the same anyway? Crime has no incentive. You can not steal intelligence and inner joy of discovery. You have to work it out yourself!


You see people in Summer or Egipt or Rome or Athens have also "just go out there and do it!" they also have had restaurants and fast foods and people that had "sucess" and "hard work"... but nothing ever changed...and nobody seems to notice that if we still have to "work" every day of our life then NO EVOLUTION has ever happened...

Unless it is "evolution" for a limited group that benefit from our work... but since they can even consider such an action they are even lower in evolution.

Quote:

It can't be a decision by committee.


No, but it CAN be a decision from our hearts, a decision from our intelligence from your love and understanding that each and every human deserves the same material things.

NO, please not a committee. The only worst thing than capitalisms is a "group" or an "organization" or democracy.

Quote:

Or it can, but the decision will not be forward thinking and will fit to a lower denominator.


Well we must see what fair means. What is the sustainable level of goods that we can offer for free to each and every human. What it is?
One house with one room? Food, clothes, electricity? House with 2 rooms max? One laptop? internet?

We must calculate and see. then we will know what the common denominator of this planet is.

It is better to have this since this way we will know. We can start from there but not in order to improve "somebody" 's bank account.

The target has to be (enforced): the same for everybody. Exceptions only for extraordinary needs. Only limited in time and only checked.

It is more to be said here. I try to use my little time until my death or until I will accept the offer from this Universe ... to find a solution to this race/planetary problem. I think I have found one... but it needs more refinement... besides everybody must understand for himself... it can not be forced upon you because freedom is important.


Quote:

If no one gains anything by working harder, then people won't work harder or come up with new ideas or products or easier methods or things that are necessary for others


Wrong! First example : I would, I already do.

The same very thing are needed for everybody so why not make them better for everybody to benefit? It is a problem of LOVE not a problem of GAIN. Since when the main engine for intelligent man is LUST for MONEY?

For me it the pleasure of exploration, to discover, to help to LOVE and experiment. I can even accept to wipe out shit IF I think this helps makind and by logical consequence myself.

But everybody must do the same... I will not wipe shit for your GAIN unless i am forced (and today I am) but I might join you for the good of mankind.

One change of attitude is required here:

Stop giving your creativity and good work for masters. Yes, by all means do perform your basic duty polite and correct but please limit the benefit of the masters.

If they choose not to "see" then simply and slowly let the world die out.

Without creativity, without joy of improvements the planet will die at the first major problem. Please, let it die. As it is now it does not deserve to exist.

Be open for a better arrangement, seek to define and find it but do not let yourself be tricked by working for "somebody" and that this will ever improve mankind. Do not be tricked by "advancements" in technology do not participate. The most important resource slave masters need is your creativity.They already have plain work secured by invoices and needs.

By all means be creative since this is an great joy probably the only ultimate purpose of life...BUT take care and make it in such a way that is useless for slave masters (ASM anybody?)

We slaves, do this for 10.000 years... it simply make the lives of slave owners nicer and better for a WHILE... but overall nothing (but gadgets) is gained... a waste of time...a waste of opportunity in this galaxy.

Try to understand.

Quote:

(what's in it for me? I should work fo ryou?).


Enormous joy and understanding and the knowledge that you are and share a "Brotherhood of MAN"...love creativity and understanding. Explore the galaxy, explore your inner conscience, evolution at least on this Planet.

What more? want to kill, to enslave? get lost

Quote:

Do you work to live or live to work? You must work to live,


If I "MUST" then it is SLAVERY. Understanding this is the first step.

I can intelligently accept it for a while if the target is to make automated system that will avoid this "work" in the future.

If not then I will do it because I do not have the courage to die.

Quote:

whether it's for a company or on a patch of land you farm for food. But then that makes you the employer if you need extra help. Does that make yu a slave driver, too?


Yes it make me a slave driver too. Unless I pay them back exactly the value of their work.

Sometimes we do need help from groups. It is a sign of non-evolution.

We must seek and find technology that is individual, that guarantees individual freedom. We must see technology that requires "groups" as being "evil" because groups have a fair chance for manipulation to occur and promote necessity.

Yes sometimes it is needed. Pay fair, ask kindly for help. Return the exact same help back either in money or in exact same work and we might live to see then time when no human will need extra help...

We should "commune" (not communism) simply for JOY but for no real "utilitarian" reason. That is the real freedom.


Quote:

It's interesting there is so much anti-capitalist sentiment when the great civilizations were, in one form or another, capitalist.


I do not see them as great. I do not always speak. But I wanted to say that anything created by slave work does not deserve our recognition or appreciation. I do not appreciate the Great Pyramid's for this, nether the new Your City, or The Taj Mahal. They are great examples of slavery. It should be preserved maybe as a disgusting example of how twisted the mind of barbarian slave owners was...


You know: "There is nothing that you can not achieve when you set your mind on it AND when you have an infinite free slave working force at your disposal..."

A possibly necessary step in our evolution? I doubt it but we will never know until we observe another intelligent species process of evolution.

Anyway what is done is done. Can not change it today. Let us find a way not to make the exact same mistakes again and again and again.

Quote:

The most slave-driven societies were those of socialism and communism. I'm not aware of any countries that stand to the front that are either.


I have explained you why communism has failed. Besides I do not advocate for communism because it takes away individual freedom and promotes groups and I have consider that this is not beneficial. I have other options.

However you want to say that having a free house, a job, a car, access to free university education, free medical care and medicine, putting the first satellite in space and the first human in space, having advanced avionics and planes, bringing countries so poor that they were in "middle ages" to modern times in 50 years was not "top"?.

NASA used soviet space engines because they are more advanced today after 25 years of being kept in a hangar.

Depends what you define as "top"


And that was in fact a tirany not communism because they allowed property, family and some people have had special "rights" and powers.

I did very well in both organizations and I have criticized and stand agains BOTH.

But from my day to day experience communism is much better than capitalism any day... but with 2 notable exceptions: give me freedom and remove groups please.

I do not think that "top" is:
- crimes and rapes and slavery for some fat ass "owner"
- people forced to give up their inventions for rich people's benefit
- wars, religion
- luxury at the expense of others

Yes if you look superficially the rich capitalistic countries are doing better... at least from the external image that is.

As I have said before I think socialist countries did better from a human point of view and even from a technological point of view but still made mistakes by being tyrannic, allowed family and some forms of capitalism, limited freedom of individuals and unfortunately returned to no evolution: aka capitalism.

And please do not give Cuba as an example, with US blockade and attacks it is a "wonder" they still exist. If China will take over US... then that is another issue.

An do not get me wrong. Let me make this clear:

By my current life standards I am also a "criminal" because it think even IF I do not own or use slaves... my life style is still above the world "average" level. And I confess using slaves in the past (having my own software company).

I am sorry.


The only difference is that I do realize that I have done wrong and I try to understand first and then find a logical solution to this problem.

I do not think communism is a solution, and socialism is just a palliative. We need another solution for this problem.

I think I have found something and I am open to discussing it.

Quote:

The reason I think there is no need for this type of forum here is because there are many other boards on the 'net for this type of talk and I think this is just a distraction.


Yes maybe, but here some of us have very high credentials Wink and funny how this kind of subjects emerge here and they do not emerge or are not so seriously discussed elsewhere...

If it is the truth it does not matter where it is written.

Programming (and ironically in ASM) is the key to individualism and I do consider this individualism at the expense of slave owners as being the key to further evolution of mankind and besides it has the potential of automating the work and freeing the slaves... of course it can also help slave owners to automate the process of slavery Very Happy

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."
Post 02 Nov 2007, 03:06
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
It's interesting there is so much anti-capitalist sentiment when the great civilizations were, in one form or another, capitalist.

Now you are using term "capitalism" wrongly too. They may have had some things common with capitalism, but that doesn't make them "another form of capitalism". Again, capitalism is well-defined economical order of society

Quote:
The most slave-driven societies were those of socialism and communism.

How come? Yes, there were some societies which claimed themselves to be socialist, and were practically a tyranny (Cambogia under Khmer Rouge for example). But this isn't representative.

In most countries of eastern bloc, all value produced by people was given into common share, and then that share was used back for all people. How does that make you a slave?
Post 02 Nov 2007, 07:15
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
Quote:

The most slave-driven societies were those of socialism and communism.


To vid:

I think that by the word "driven" he wanted to say "ruled by", or under the control of "slaves" ... and not as in "full of slaves" or "with a lot of slavery"
Post 02 Nov 2007, 07:24
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