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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
been reading linus and rms gplv2 and gplv3
is there possible to reach a defination on what is freedom?
it seems like black could be white if u know how to argue/present and white could turned to black too if you know how to answer back.

there are lot of smart guys on board, please share ur view in the "shortest possible words"

or this is all just a state of mind. Wink
Post 16 Jun 2007, 00:21
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Thucydides (Ancient Greek historian and author, 460-404bc) wrote:
“The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage.”
Post 16 Jun 2007, 04:36
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
Absolute definition of freedom doesn't exist. Yes, I think that there are many subjective definitions of freedom, which depend on our life conditions.

Freedom is a state of (human) mind.

Probably most of citizens of the communistic China, islamic Iran or other "dictatorships" feel happy and free and could be surprised that we condole them and want to give them "our" model of freedom.
Post 16 Jun 2007, 07:40
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
Yes it is possible to give a clear definition in practical human terms, however it is better that you reach to this definition by your own understanding and efforts... (this definition was never spoken on this planet)

Otherwise it will be "borrowed" and even if the definition is "right" you will loose it this way.

Besides the real freedom (not the one that can be expressed) can only be experienced. And once you will experience real freedom (even once) you will not have a need to talk about it anymore Wink


And NO ... neither the communist China or dictator ships like Iran or democracy like US or Europe have any knowledge whatsoever about what freedom is.

And NO neither do YOU! Wink

"They" or "you" have never ever spoken about the freedom that can be expressed...

ALL that you "know" or "think" about freedom... is in fact the manipulation of the reformed slave masters that rule this world.


So hurry up! Find that clear definition, and put a patent on it. Then nobody will be able to legally "experiment freedom" without paying you a "fee" for it Very Happy
Post 16 Jun 2007, 09:24
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
bogdanontanu wrote:
Yes it is possible to give a clear definition in practical human terms, however it is better that you reach to this definition by your own understanding and efforts... (this definition was never spoken on this planet)

(...)

Besides the real freedom (not the one that can be expressed) can only be experienced. And once you will experience real freedom (even once) you will not have a need to talk about it anymore Wink
bogdanontanu, your style of writting is really intriguing. Very Happy You suggest that you know real nature of this world, but don't want to talk about it. Wink
Post 16 Jun 2007, 10:38
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
now how to experience "real" freedom Confused
or you are free when you think you are free Wink
seems like dictionary is lossing its meaning nowadays.

Quote:
ALL that you "know" or "think" about freedom... is in fact the manipulation of the reformed slave masters that rule this world.

oh.. this one, hard to get it, brain needs more time to consume....
more tips please

perhaps same concept goes to evil and good too.
Post 16 Jun 2007, 10:56
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
sleepsleep wrote:
or you are free when you think you are free Wink
That's it IMHO. Wink You are free if you understand and agree with every necessary compulsion under which you are (absolute freedom is impossible - we are social beings).
Post 16 Jun 2007, 12:13
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
or you are free when you think you are free

i don't know if i would call someone under mind control "free".

In my opinion, there is nothing that people percieve as "freedom" and can be clearly defined. Like "love", or "good"...
Post 17 Jun 2007, 17:44
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
MHajduk wrote:

Probably most of citizens of the communistic China, islamic Iran or other "dictatorships" feel happy and free and could be surprised that we condole them and want to give them "our" model of freedom.



China outlaws religion, meaning their citizens are free of being taught hatred of those who believe a different religion. It seems clear to me that in this respect china has got it right and the rest of the world would be a better place if we follow their lead in this respect. But alas we have the mighty U.S.A leading the charge with religous hatred and stinking up the world pushing their christianity.

I've mentioned this to people before here in my own little world and it's always the same demented response, you're not free unless you can follow what ever religion you want. This is nonsense, one day when religion and all the bullshit hatred and war that goes with it is cast aside, then and only then we will have a chance at freedom. Until that day we are prisoners to hatred, fighting our fathers wars Sad
Post 17 Jun 2007, 22:16
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
MichaelH wrote:
I've mentioned this to people before here in my own little world and it's always the same demented response, you're not free unless you can follow what ever religion you want. This is nonsense, one day when religion and all the bullshit hatred and war that goes with it is cast aside, then and only then we will have a chance at freedom. Until that day we are prisoners to hatred, fighting our fathers wars Sad


GOOD LUCK.

As for my view on freedom... We are always bound by something the way i see it. Removing the bindings of one thing could bind you by something else. So, the way i see it, the closest thing to freedom we can get is the ability to look and choose what we believe in, without persecution for our beliefs, with the exception of persecution for trying to infringe upon another's ability to choose what they (by removing information or forcing a concept on another) think and believe. Aside from freedom of thought, i personally view freedom as a bad thing.
Post 17 Jun 2007, 22:34
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
So, the way i see it, the closest thing to freedom we can get is the ability to look and choose what we believe in, without persecution for our beliefs, with the exception of persecution for trying to infringe upon another's ability to choose what they (by removing information or forcing a concept on another) think and believe. Aside from freedom of thought, i personally view freedom as a bad thing.

yesh, but "choosing what we believe in" is always dependent on "inputs" we get from surroundings. And these are always changing you decision in some direction, even when not intended to... this is my problem with defining "freedom"
Post 17 Jun 2007, 23:02
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
vid wrote:
Quote:
So, the way i see it, the closest thing to freedom we can get is the ability to look and choose what we believe in, without persecution for our beliefs, with the exception of persecution for trying to infringe upon another's ability to choose what they (by removing information or forcing a concept on another) think and believe. Aside from freedom of thought, i personally view freedom as a bad thing.

yesh, but "choosing what we believe in" is always dependent on "inputs" we get from surroundings. And these are always changing you decision in some direction, even when not intended to... this is my problem with defining "freedom"


indeed, but on the general side, it dosn't affect you too generally (the way i see it). Only when you get technical. If you're a zealot, not much hope in changing you from your zelous belief. The real problem is providing all the possible input.
Post 17 Jun 2007, 23:09
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
The real problem is providing all the possible input.

yeah, right. THAT would be freedom.

but it doesn't sound very realistic...
Post 17 Jun 2007, 23:24
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Since when has any desire to improve humanity sounded realistic? Laughing
Post 17 Jun 2007, 23:30
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TmX



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
TmX
Join us now and share the software;
You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free.
x2

Very Happy
Post 18 Jun 2007, 04:56
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6035
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MHajduk
vid wrote:
In my opinion, there is nothing that people percieve as "freedom" and can be clearly defined. Like "love", or "good"...
Every our thought could be described as a biochemical and electrical state of our brain, therefore... every abstractive idea is a part of material world as long as we believe in it. Such ideas as "love", "good", "freedom" and, hmm... "God" exist at least in your heads (and hearts) if you can figure out them. Very Happy

I'm really surprised that I wrote it... Wink
Post 18 Jun 2007, 06:22
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
How do we know that our thoughts are actually in the brain? The electromagnetics of the brain when we think could be the result of something outside the brain interfearing with it. It is possible that our thoughts are part of that thing outside the brain if it exists, right?
Post 18 Jun 2007, 06:28
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
DustWolf
So in order to discuss freedom we will now have to talk all about all the irelevant philosophical stuff? I think it's a fair chance the human thinking proces does not violate the laws of physics just because we're human. Believing otherwise would be imposibly egoistical.

If by making a defention for freedom you mean a defenition of freedom that cannot be missunderstood, then I agree with what bogdanontanu said: It is pointless to try to define freedom with words because whatever anyone manages to write down is inherently innacurate.

If, however, we were to say we just need a general defenition that'd set the meaning of the word into stone for those who are actually willing to comprehend it properly, it is simple enough. For example: "Freedom or to be free is to be able to independently choose wether or not to comply to a demand or requirement". Now considering the point that everybody is free to missunderstand that, you might want to add togather many of these defenitions to achieve better accuracy.

As for the philosophical debate wether a mechanism such as a human brain is actually capable of making such a thing as an independent choice... well it is my oppinion that even manipulated people and FASM programs make choices, albeit not necesarily particularly smart ones.
Post 18 Jun 2007, 12:55
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
DustWolf
kohlrak wrote:
How do we know that our thoughts are actually in the brain? The electromagnetics of the brain when we think could be the result of something outside the brain interfearing with it. It is possible that our thoughts are part of that thing outside the brain if it exists, right?


One irrelevant thing I HAVE TO mention here kohlrak. Desipite the point that human brains do produce electromagnetic waves while they functinon, wrapping an induction coil around your head won't make you think in any way differently. The funciton of the brain has a lot more to do with ions and molecules than it does with electricity or even magnetism.

So unless you have a fenomena that can suddenly make a neurotransmiter or relatively large amount of ions relocate themselves or appear in the brain out of the blue: no. If I were you I'd go for quantum physics rather than electromagnetism. It has at least some chance of being credible.

*touched by His noodly appendage*
Post 18 Jun 2007, 13:14
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
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tom tobias
sleepsleep wrote:
...is there possible to reach a defination on what is freedom? it seems like black could be white if u know how to rgue/present ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriplegia
A visit to any neurology ward of any hospital will provide some clear notions about "freedom".
MichaelH wrote:
...China outlaws religion,...
Umm, while I do not disagree with the tenor of your remarks overall, I must dispute this claim, for, based upon my own couple of visits to China, where I lived in various cities, including some provincial locations, I feel compelled to acknowledge that the Chinese government, notwithstanding their oppressive refusal to permit its citizens access to the FASM forum, does permit the HUI people to march, and protest, and carry on...The Hui, for those unfamiliar with Islam, are Chinese Muslims. There are a LOT of them!!! The men wear white skullcaps, kind of similar to the Jews, except for the color!!!
So, if your notion of freedom is the ability to wear special clothing, identifying your religion, as the Nazi's compelled BOTH genders of the Jews to do, then, I guess China offers freedom. For me, China is a place with strong biological forces at work: Survival of the fittest. The strongest, and wealthiest absolutely dominate everyone else, and the poorest are enslaved. How ironic that the wealthy do this while wearing the cloak of Marxism, obviously distorted by the image of Stalin's horrors. Freedom? Yup, lots of it. As a wealthy foreigner (every foreigner in China is wealthy) I had UNFETTERED access to the internet, until I proudly showed how truly excellent the internet bandwidth in my home was, to one of the many secret police who followed me everywhere. The next day I could no longer access FASM forum, and my bandwidth was dismal like everyone else!!
Freedom: unfettered bandwidth.
Smile
Post 18 Jun 2007, 21:15
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