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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 57
xanatose
The first law of termodinamics states that

Quote:
energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed.


However gravity seem to be a continous force. No mather how much energy you use against it, the moment you stop the energy, gravity contiinues to attract (like an infinite energy source). Where does the energy come from?

This had beeing bothering me for some time. Maybe there is a simple explanation that I missed.
Post 09 Oct 2007, 17:24
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
in the atom world there is a fact

they communicate with electric field and magnetic field

the light is a sort of magnetic field created by an electric field
the gravity is same as the light but at a different scale
all the energies in the universe are of the same nature
but at different scales
and in different contexts

so the ground were we walk is constituted of micro energy that opposite with gravity
without the energy of atoms, we will dive in the ground like in water
energy is not always in movement
but if you look very deeply, you'll see that the revolution of electrons is a movement so there is always energy

energy is the basic element of the universe
some scientist says that materials are energy too
Post 10 Oct 2007, 01:01
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
The correct answer is: We have no clue.

This is one big problem of modern science. There is empirical knowledge about how gravitation acts on mass BUT we have no explanation for it.

This has yet to be discovered.

Einstein tried and failed (or died before succeeding) .
The quantum physics has great problems with gravitation.

Overall speaking we have no clue just some theories like the fact the Gravity does distort space time continuum and / or that it come from another dimension...

There are 2 big scale forces that shape this Universe:
1)Gravitation
2)Electromagentism

We know and use a lot more about electromagnetism compared to what we know about gravitation.

Please note that there are some extra small range / low scale forces that act at atomic / nuclear level.
Post 12 Oct 2007, 04:10
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
in marseille, the center of the universe, we have a group of scientist that seek a manner to mesure gravitationnal waves

gravitationnal waves are the result of aster mass changes

i explain

one time they detects the presence of a planet or star with its gravitation, they saw that this gravitation may vary due to black holes or proton stars

the number of atoms of the star don't vary but it's gravitation yes

why?
they don't know
but behind this there can be a solution to vary the weight of an object without varing its mass

anti gravitation can be found with gravitation waves

refer to CNRS

1) gravitation is an electromagnetic force
2) electromagnetism is the family of all forces

all forces, atomic to galactic, are of same nature
just the scale change
and with scale the effects of the differents parameters
the global formula is in stude in the CNRS, NASA, MIT etc
Post 12 Oct 2007, 10:42
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation
i think this has more info than you want Wink
Post 12 Oct 2007, 11:51
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Post 12 Oct 2007, 12:11
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
@xanatose:
Quote:
Where does the energy come from?

Mass (that is, a massive object) creates a curvature in space-time. Objects are in a free fall, following a straight path in this curved space-time. These curvatures cause the moving objects to accelerate toward each others. This results in gravity. But this explanation of gravity (given by general relativity) only applies to macroscopic objects, and is not valid on a quantum level. One day I guess they'll come up with a decent Theory of Everything. String theory may be the answer, but it still needs much more experimentation and refining, which is quite difficult to obtain on such scales.


@bogdanontanu:
Quote:
Please note that there are some extra small range / low scale forces that act at atomic / nuclear level.

They are not just extra forces, they are as important as electromagnetism and gravitation (even if not as "popular") and constitute with them the four fundamental interactions of physics (in our universe at least). For instance, nuclear strong interaction acts on the elementary particles, among which are the gluons that "glue" the different atomic parts together. The very existence of organized matter in our universe depends on it!
Post 12 Oct 2007, 16:46
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
all is information
mass is information
light is information
during a stude, the master told us that exists a theory of information behind energy
as if all the world was in fact in a virtual dimension and that interaction in our real world is decided in a meta dimension

there are a lot of theories about the invisibles things

my theory is that the visible world is a little part of a meta world
E=MC² is a very little part of the global energy formula
Post 12 Oct 2007, 17:16
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
edfed: so basically, you told us:

1. Everything is information. Thus information = everything. So you told everything = everything. True, but not very helpful.

2. Someone told you there is some "theory of information behind energy"... somehow, i wasn't able to find anything about such theory. Who was that master? Did he tell you anything more about that theory, besides that it exists?

3. "as if all the world was in fact in a virtual dimension and that interaction in our real world is decided in a meta dimension". Reminds me of some pseudoscientific crap i read recently, where some poorly educated guys incorrectly stated that latest physics science says we live in matrix-like world. Not true.

4. "There are a lot of theories about the invisibles things." True again, but i fail to see how is this helpful on topic. How are human eyes and brain important for categorizing theories, and what do they have to do with gravity?
Post 12 Oct 2007, 19:07
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xanatose



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 57
xanatose
Still confused, guess I should take a look at string theory. In the mean time:

Imagine an object between 2 massive equal masses in equal inverse directions, each pulling it in opposite direction and cancelling each other. The forces are still there. If the energy of the gravity comes from the atoms. Then there should be a loss of mass over time (since energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed). If there is no mass loss, then where does the energy come from?

Why does matter attract each other, if it where as magnetism, then should't there be matter that repel each other.

Seems to me that this is one topic science has yet to figure out.
Post 12 Oct 2007, 23:18
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
matrix is a movie
not an essay of scientist

i don't exacly remember the exacts terms of this theory
but there is a physical phenomenon unexplained in quantic phisic

a particle have a magnetic field OK
this magnetic field have an action

but how the information of this magnetic field is transmitted???

this is explained by an information that told to every particles that there is a particle

this message is not the magnetic field
i don't exactly remind the way of the theory but it's something like that

seek for GUT and superrope theory
and quantum in particles
Post 13 Oct 2007, 00:07
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
HyperVista wrote:
...
and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
Thanks HyperVista, interesting reference. From that reference:
"but conservation of energy prevents them from disappearing, and instead they oscillate."
Does anyone else recognize a problem here? How can "strings" oscillate, without an energy source? How can "conservation of energy" represent a viable explanation for what is instead an (unnecessary?) expenditure of energy? How can "strings", ill-defined, and unobservable, untestable, and, as yet, irrefutable, possibly serve to explain the relationship between gravitational forces and (strong or weak) nuclear forces? The question returns to explaining the mechanism of the force of gravity, including the force exerted between two or more bodies, such as in our solar system. "Strings" don't offer much help, here, they serve more as a distraction, in my opinion.
Post 13 Oct 2007, 07:29
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
xanatose wrote:
The first law of termodinamics states that

Quote:
energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed.


However gravity seem to be a continous force. No mather how much energy you use against it, the moment you stop the energy, gravity contiinues to attract (like an infinite energy source). Where does the energy come from?

This had beeing bothering me for some time. Maybe there is a simple explanation that I missed.


I'd like to measure delta of mass of the massive object but I guess it wouldn't have changed.

But the energy somewhere must have gone, and it doesn't seem thermal.

Very nice puzzle, thank you.

Maybe an object that opposes gravitation generates some kind of waves we cannot yet detect and don't know yet.

Eh, personally I still believe in the theory of Ether! Smile

_________________
Greets,
Fabio
Post 13 Oct 2007, 08:54
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
tom tobias wrote:
"Strings" don't offer much help, here, they serve more as a distraction, in my opinion.

thanks tom. i respectfully disagree. string theory attemps to bridge the gap between particle physics and quantum physics. particle and quatum physics only hold if you assume gravity either does not exist or is so small that it's not measurable. not a very realistic assumption in a real world. it reminds me of those mysterious frictionless pullies or inclined planes we used to hear about. Very Happy
the energy needed to oscillate the minimized strings is no more difficult to imagine or account for than the energy necessary to keep subatomic particles in constant motion without the input of external energy. the term oscillate conjurs the notion of moving from positive to negative with a resultant zero sum game. admittedly, that notion conjurs perpetual motion, which violates thermodynamics (messy).
i think string theory comes more close to explaining gravitational forces than does particle or quantum physics and therefore in my opinion offers some insight, and consequently more than a simple distraction, in my opinion. there is a very good reason string theory is closely related to and mentioned frequently in association with the topic of gravity.
Post 13 Oct 2007, 20:20
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
@edfed:
Quote:
there are a lot of theories about the invisibles things

Are you sure he was not talking about dark matter, which almost the quarter of our universe is supposed to be made of? It's only "invisible" because it does not emit or absorb light but can be seen indirectly by observing the gravitational effect on its surroundings.

Quote:

as if all the world was in fact in a virtual dimension and that interaction in our real world is decided in a meta dimension
...
my theory is that the visible world is a little part of a meta world

World (universe) and dimension are two different things. Even if there is only one universe, it may have more than 4 dimensions. Just as there may be an infinity of "universes", if the multiverse theory is correct.


@xanatose:
Quote:
Imagine an object between 2 massive equal masses in equal inverse directions, each pulling it in opposite direction and cancelling each other. The forces are still there.

Here, in every pair of two objects, each one is "free-falling" towards the other. Distance between the two decreases, so does gravitational potential energy. It does so at the same rate kinetic energy is increasing (objects have been accelerated by gravitation). So all in all, the sum of energies is null (if there was no initial energy, of course).

Quote:
If the energy of the gravity comes from the atoms. Then there should be a loss of mass over time (since energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed). If there is no mass loss, then where does the energy come from?

It's not really an intrinsic source of "energy" contained in atoms like - speaking metaphorically - a burning can of benzene.
It is the quality of being massive that gives gravitational properties. Imagine a large sheet floating in space on which you place a ball. The ball will "sink into" the sheet. It is curving the space-time continuum. Now place a much bigger (more massive) ball. It will "distort" the sheet, curving space-time even more than the first ball. The gravitational field of the more massive ball (and its curvature of space-time) being more important than that of the less massive ball, the small ball will now slide towards the bigger one. It has been pulled by its gravitational field.
That's why, for instance, Earth has been gravitating around the sun for the last 4 billion years.

Quote:
should't there be matter that repel each other.

Exotic matter has negative gravitational mass and is thus thought to be repelled by gravity. Also dark energy, which makes almost 3/4 of our universe, has an anti-gravitational effect.
Post 16 Oct 2007, 06:17
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Post 18 Oct 2007, 11:24
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
HERE is an entertaining two minute video explaination of String Theory. This is the winner of a recent contest that challenged the participants to explain String Theory in two minutes or less. Enjoy!
Post 25 Oct 2007, 11:17
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