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Do you use Microsoft Windows Vista OS now?
Yes
12%
 12%  [ 11 ]
No
87%
 87%  [ 76 ]
Total Votes : 87

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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
LocoDelAssembly wrote:

Why I have the sensation that f0dder will correct something about the post above? Wink

I don't know enough about Vista to correct anything there, sorry Smile

I did hear they've moved some drivers to usermode, dunno if it's all of it or just the video drivers. I'm a bit mixed about this... if you strive for "as little as possible kernel-mode", you risk ending up with a lot of user<>kernel transitions; if you move too much to kernel-mode you'll have few transitions, but greater risk of crashes.

Imho it's about finding a balance - and for graphics drivers, be smart... batch calls instead of doing everything directly (ever wondered about GdiFlush(), glFlush()/glFinish() etc. ?), let usermode access DMA buffers instead of copying buffers around, etc.

drhowarddrfine wrote:

I don't know about Linux, and we're talking about drivers not software here, but FreeBSD keeps each program in its own space, so if software crashes, that process is closed but the rest of the system is unaffected.

Just about every sane operating system isolate processes from eachother in one way or another - and certainly *bsd, linux and NT (and even win9x, though not as effectively) do this with the x86 paging mechanism etc.

drhowarddrfine wrote:

I'm pretty sure drivers are handled the same way.

Last time I looked, the BSD kernel + drivers was very monolithic, even more than linux (which is moving in the right direction, kernel modules)... so definitely not. Less drives though, and less complex than the ones for windows. Funny enough, the only non-beta drivesr I can remember getting BSODs from would be video drivers (way too complex) and the nvidia nForce4 firewall (which was a buggy and leaking piece of shit).

drhowarddrfine wrote:

I've seen it happen with my own code as I test. I test in one terminal and, if it crashes, I can debug or do whatever I want in the other.

Easy enough to do this kind of isolation/protection against ring3 tasks, you won't see a regular bug crash the NT kernel anytime soon. There's a few holes that can be maliciously exploited, even from ring3 and non-administrative accounts, but they tend to get fixed. Those exist for just about any OS btw., whether they're publicly known or not.

LocoDelAssembly wrote:

Also I wonder if it is really true that those OSes keeps working, for what exist the kernel panic then?

I think linux keeps running after a kernel panic? Or perhaps that was just an unhandled exception that didn't cause a panic (which by itself is bad, imho). At least I've seen nasty register dumps in linux and it kept running, although not fully working. Bad bad.
Post 26 Jul 2007, 22:57
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
The last time I had a panic was at booting stage. The system halted and num lock and caps lock leds kept permanently flashing. However I believe this can happen in situations other than booting stage as well, but with every post on this thread (and lots of resources over the Internet) seems that Linux (among other unices) is a super ultra OS that never stops... So I wonder why my computer hanged at a black screen on Ubuntu after entering into an OGL screensaver with not chance for atl+ctrl+backspace not ALT+CTRL+F1, perhaps that is a BSOD?Smile

Quote:
I don't know enough about Vista to correct anything there, sorry Smile

My bro got not a blue screen but a red one instead due to beta nVidia drivers Very Happy

Also, WDM enforces usermode drivers? Not last time I read but OK, I confess I didn't read about Vista WDM so sorry if I assumed wrong. However this way goes against the original design. Do you remember Mark Russinovich telling that separating from kernel mode is not so good always because there are some critical driver services that if crashes you loose the system anyway?
Post 26 Jul 2007, 23:22
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
There are several user-mode components that are critical to the system, yes, and windows will shut down (though not with a BSOD) if they crash... (that's the shutdown dialogs everybody saw when the BLASTER worm was hitting).

The kernel can work just fine without those components and there's ways to stop the shutdown... don't expect the system as a whole to work without flaws if you do this, but it could be interesting for specialized tasks.
Post 26 Jul 2007, 23:39
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
My better book is upstairs but the one I have in front of me, for FreeBSD, says, "When a Unix system panics...the system writes file system buffers back to disk, print a panic string to the screen and copy the current contents of memory to the swap file for analysis (the dump file)."
Post 27 Jul 2007, 01:21
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pjd



Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 47
pjd
Gizmo: You may be interested to know that Linux also withholds some things (certain system calls etc) from even the root user and its programs.

LocoDelAssembly: Many UNIX-Like OSes are used as servers these days (BSD, Debian, Red Hat...). For a server to be brought down costs money to the company. For this reason the ability for the OS to clean up after an accident without rebooting is vital. Especially in life-threatening situations such as an operation in a hospital or the running of a nuclear powerstation. I remember when KDE did not give a shutdown button by default. UNIX-like OSes are not necessarially designed with turning off in mind (although desktops do need to be good at it)
Post 27 Jul 2007, 13:32
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
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LocoDelAssembly
The examples you said needs a RTOS like QNX anyway. And thanks but I prefer Windows in the hospital scenario rather than an OS that keeps running with corrupted environment which will end up doing permanently more damage until someone realize that the system is not OK and go to the computer to reset it.

Someone know how to write a driver for Linux and {Free|Open|Net}BSD? Perhaps we could try intentionaly divide by zero or accessing invalid memory to see if the system really keeps running.
Post 27 Jul 2007, 14:27
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pjd



Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 47
pjd
I think linux would probably just have a segmentation fault. Properly written a *NIX would attempt to repair the damage and start a new driver after cleaning up the memory. Linux drivers (graphics at least) cannot bring down the kernel because they cannot modify it or touch it's memory. I.E. when X11 goes down for some reason with all it's drivers you (obviously) have no graphics until it restarts itself at which point it runs perfectly as though it had just booted. This comes to the main problem with windows - A driver can crash, corrupt the kernel and windows needs a reboot - while on linux the driver crashes and gets restarted, anything relying on it gets stuck and restarted (like X11), but the kernel is rarely touched as it does not need any drivers to run so there is no need for a reboot. The kernel should clean up corrupt drivers as it would a corrupt program.

for example:
Qemu uses kernel services for virtualization using the kqemu kernel module for a driver
If the kqemu dies, since it does not need to be run by the kernel(it's a module and not vital) only Qemu goes down and kqemu gets restarted

Admittadly if the driver is vital for the operation a crash could be fatal but not as likely as a complete reboot could be

Thats the theory as best as I know any way
Post 27 Jul 2007, 15:34
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
pjd wrote:

Properly written a *NIX would attempt to repair the damage and start a new driver after cleaning up the memory

Great concept... system keeps running, and that fact that a small piece of memory is corrupted doesn't really matter, who needs correct readings of the temperature monitors in a nuclear plant anyway? And it doesn't really matter if the patient morphine administration is skewed.
Post 28 Jul 2007, 12:21
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pjd



Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 47
pjd
no the point is that you don't need to turn everything off to uncorrupt the memory, just the part using it. restarting the driver may stop temperature readings for 20 seconds but restarting the whole thing takes longer and stops all vital services like coolant regulation. to restart a computer in a nuclear plant and avoid meltdown the only way to do it is turn the reactor off. By the time that's safe you have been running on corrupted memory for at least half an hour. Further more if this is a regular occurrence, the heating and cooling can severely damage the reactor over time.
Post 29 Jul 2007, 14:38
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
BTW, forget what I've said about red screen, it was blue and my brother an idiot for telling me that Vista shows red screens due to some article he read on Internet. Sorry for not corrected this before but I forgot this thread.

For the record, I've just hanged my Gentoo with an OpenGL demoscene using nVidia official drivers. This happened to me before with Ubuntu when using the generic drivers and using full screen programs but this is my first time with Gentoo. Since Linux people says that BSODs occurs because Windows is a sh*t ignoring the fact that normally it is the drivers' fault, may I say that Linux is a sh*t now?Wink

[edit]Just in case that "hanged" is an improper term, I mean froze & completely unresponsive system, no HDD activity, completely dead and ready for the big reset button.[/edit]
Post 21 Sep 2007, 02:46
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madmatt



Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 1045
Location: Michigan, USA
madmatt
Confession Time Embarassed Sad ,
I had to reinstall windows XP because some of my major games (Half life 2 in particular) ran like a cold slug in windows Vista, even after installing latest drivers, etc. A lot of 16-bit software that used to run didn't because vga emulation is either buggy or not supported any more, but this was bound to happen sooner or later, no concern here. Also had some problems with window scrolling (FasmW in particular), which again, went much slower than in windows XP. So, I guess I'll have to change my hat to "Windows Vista" to "Windows Vista, after SP1". Smile One last thing, I do believe Microsoft has released a fix to the video driver problem mentioned above. But I've got windows XP running so well (and FasmW scrolling fast again) that I'm just not ready to Re-install Vista until SP1 is released (but ONLY if they've fixed the problems mehtioned above!!!) Has anyone else had other problems with Vista, other than what I mentioned Above?
Post 23 Sep 2007, 16:10
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madmatt



Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 1045
Location: Michigan, USA
madmatt
If anyone cares now, Decided to re-install Vista and see if the issues with "Half Life 2" have been fixed, and looks like they have. The game runs at near Windows XP speed now, so I'll be using windows Vista from now on for everything.
Post 27 Sep 2007, 14:12
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Good to see that SP1 was finally released Wink
Post 27 Sep 2007, 17:28
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madmatt



Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 1045
Location: Michigan, USA
madmatt
LocoDelAssembly wrote:
Good to see that SP1 was finally released Wink
Embarassed Smile Probably should have said "Until hotfix is released to fix the Half Life 2 "slower than a cold slug" video problem" Laughing
Post 30 Sep 2007, 10:06
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
kohlrak wrote:
If microsoft was really worried about stability, they'd include a debug boot disk with the cd. That boot disk would include a hex editor, a simple file explorer, an assembler, and other neat little goodies that we could use to fix a problem when something like the security tables get screwed and no one has access even in safe mode. My windows xp registry is still corrupted...


You mean like this? (Active@Boot Disk)
Post 07 Oct 2007, 03:33
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
BTW, I've been running Vista on a new laptop for the past two months (well, moreso the last month), and it runs okay, BUT it does need a fair bit of RAM and disk space (too much, IMO). It looks okay, runs okay, and has a few improvements (MKLINK, ROBOCOPY, SCHTASKS/TASKLIST/TASKKILL, plus the Sidebar, better Search, better power management, better photo management, ReadyBoost, DX10, IE7, WMP11) and a few new games (Mahjong Titans, Chess Titans, Inkball, Purble Place).

But some things are worse (e.g. no 3D Space Cadet Pinball, DPMI memory limited to max 32 MB RAM, no full screen CMD unless using XP driver which supposedly disables Aero). Granted, only a DOS nerd Cool like me would complain about that, and DOSBox helps there, but there are other things too (fixed in upcoming SP1??). I've heard getting printers to work is a pain. (BTW, as soon as I got the Internet connected, it downloaded 27 patches, eek. Took about an hour, too.)

As you know, they are pretty much getting everyone to upgrade to it through various means. So it's kinda unavoidable. Confused

It's not horrible, just not really really "good" yet.
Post 07 Oct 2007, 03:43
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
rugxulo: iirc vista has some better junction support, but with 3rd-party tools there's been junction support in NT for quite a while. Robocopy is available in the resource kit (so not just for vista), sysinternals has pslist/pskill, IE7 is available for XP as well, etc etc.

Yeah, no DX10 on XP, but that's only because Microsoft wants to force people on Vista, there's no real technical reason for not providing it on XP (and don't give me bullshit about "but Vista has a new gfx architecture", DX10 is an API...)

But I guess if Vista is run through a serious vlite, and fitted with xplorer2+blackbox+locate32, it might be usable.
Post 07 Oct 2007, 10:12
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wisepenguin



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 129
wisepenguin
ive been away for a while, but after reading this thread i pretty
much agree with what f0dder says, after using vista and xp myself.
i keep finding my way back to xp.

btw, xp pro has several new command line utils including
tasklist and taskkill

EDIT: and schtasks, check out the system32 folder
Post 07 Oct 2007, 12:33
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Actually, I read that there was a "valid" reason for not having DX10 on XP, but then someone said it could still be done. (BTW, DX10.1 coming with SP1.)

XCOPY is officially "deprecated" on Vista in lieu of ROBOCOPY ("robust copy"), which is more powerful. And at least, my XP Home only has XCOPY. (BTW, cmdline fans may appreciate XXCOPY, hardcore users only!!! Wow, so many options!)

I know about IE7 for XP (have it), I just meant it's default for Vista (no WGA crud required to install it). I actually prefer Opera, but anyways, a few sites won't work with it (Google Pages or even Bellsouth's web mail HTML formatting, not that I use it though).

P.S. I should've said it took an hour "to install" (not download) 27 updates. Even on an AMD64x2 1.6 Ghz notebook. Razz

One person said XP wasn't multi-core aware, but then I heard otherwise, so I dunno. Vista does seem to run smoother, in my experience at least (XP Home / P4 "Northwood" vs. Vista Home Premium / AMD64x2 "Tyler").

Yeah, XP runs pretty good, you're not missing anything.I personally see no reason for MS to push this hard to replace the XP user market with Vista, but they do anyways. Rolling Eyes Confused
Post 08 Oct 2007, 17:40
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
rugxulo: people argue that you can't do XP DX10 because "the graphics architecture changed" - stuff like graphics drivers now running largely in usermode on Vista, along with some other changes. But imho it's nothing that can't be done (although it likely is more than just a recompile).

Robocopy doesn't come with XP by default, but you can get it (and a lot of other stuff) for free in the resource kit, as I previously wrote.

For IE I'm sticking to IE6 - it's lightweight, and it renders those broken sites "correctly", can't see any reason to ugprade to IE7... not going to be my default browser anyway. And IE7 seems like even more of a pig than firefox >_<

XP is multicore aware for sure, people are so full of bullshit. Win2k wasn't hyperthreading aware (scheduler issue), but hyperthreading is mostly deprecated now anyway... and the XP sheduler is HT-aware. (2k has no problems with multicore or SMP btw).

Running on the same hardware (tested on some core2duo laptops and my amd64x2 4400+/2gig ram/GF7600 card), XP is definitely smoother & faster than Vista. And has less problems.
Post 08 Oct 2007, 23:23
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