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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
see this

there seems to be market even for asm programmers in US
Post 30 Apr 2007, 23:46
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cod3b453



Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 619
cod3b453
There's always a need for asm programmers, every time there's a new processor [revision] or you have small devices that aren't supported by/not suited to HLL's.
Post 01 May 2007, 19:49
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Yes, certainly Tomasz would be highly employable here in the US. From what I know of many of you guy's skills, most of you would be highly employable here.

In my sector of the market (I manage 40+ software and hardware engineers), software programmers are very well paid and coddled (pampered). We provide free drinks and food/snacks. We provide ping pong and fussball. We bring in a contractor to wash/detail their cars every three weeks. Those performing very well get sent, along with a significant other, for a week vacation to the Carribbian (all expenses paid) (we put all the high performer's names in a hat at the end of each quarter and draw a name out). Work hours are adjustible (come in late / stay late or come in early / leave early, etc.).

Most of you guys would do very well here.
Post 01 May 2007, 21:05
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

Most of you guys would do very well here.


If they go to live to USA or if they had been born in USA? I always wonder if it is convenient to live in a country where you will not be a citizen anymore (at least for a long while).
Post 01 May 2007, 21:24
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
LocoDelAssembly wrote:

If they go to live to USA or if they had been born in USA? I always wonder if it is convenient to live in a country where you will not be a citizen anymore (at least for a long while).


Both. Many of the best programmers in the US are foreign born. I just gave a talk at the University of Maryland's chapter of IEEE. A majority of the students were citizens of countries other than the US. Some of the software engineers I work with were born and raised in countries other than the US. The sad fact of the matter is the grade school education system in the US is mediocre, at best. The universities are solid, but the gade schools, not so much. Many students in US universities choose majors other than computer science. Some attribute this to news reports some years ago about programming jobs being outsourced overseas (I think they believe there is no future here in the US for programmers .... they're wrong, of course).

As far as convenience in living in a country not of your citizenship, I think it's up to the individual. You guys already have the language skill and that's a big plus in living here. Some folks are comfortable living and traveling in foreign lands, and others not. I think it depends on the person.
Post 01 May 2007, 22:16
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8902
Location: ˛                             ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣Posts: 334455
sleepsleep
i always admire those smart guys. how i wish i am like them too. know a lot, from computer, electronic, physics, chemistry, geography, biology and etc.

麒麟本非池中物,一遇风云变化龙

姣龙得云雨,终非池中物
Post 01 May 2007, 23:07
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hidden



Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 49
hidden
HyperVista wrote:
In my sector of the market (I manage 40+ software and hardware engineers), software programmers are very well paid and coddled (pampered). We provide free drinks and food/snacks...
You have vacancy for (ASM, C, Delphi, Perl, WEB(PHP, HTML, CSS)) programmer?
If it is, do you need programmer university graduated with work experience? Or you provide some kind of exam, to check an experience?

I was searching for companies, but they all need experienced, university graduated programmers and they don't provide any kind of exam.
Post 02 May 2007, 00:12
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
One thing i do not understand is if you do not have a degree, they will not give you a job, even if your a talented programmer.
Example: one of the main programmers in the beryl-project is unemployed in the USA Shocked .
See here if you do not know how good beryl is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ&mode=related&search=

NOTE: This the same in the UK Crying or Very sad .
Post 02 May 2007, 00:24
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
天时地利人和
be in the right time
be in the right place
be with the right person
(x factors?)

and you would have all your wishes fullfilled.

btw, dex4u
i know lots of degree holders (in my country) that are unemployed. (maybe they are kinda choosy)

Quote:
I was searching for companies, but they all need experienced, university graduated programmers and they don't provide any kind of exam.

how bout building ur portfolio, so you could show them during interview.
Post 02 May 2007, 00:44
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
I am currently going through some interviews now for new staff. I stated on the requirements for either a degree or some experience.

So far only degree holders have applied and currently they were all totally useless. I think the universities do not teach any proper work related skills. Too much other stuff that has no bearing on anything. Also, the students seem to be shepherded into various courses without knowing what it is. The students don't seem to follow what they like to do, rather, they follow what they are told has good job prospects. Without enjoying what they do what is the point of life? Better to be happy and poor than unhappy but average.
Post 02 May 2007, 06:48
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laserlight



Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Singapore
laserlight
Quote:
So far only degree holders have applied and currently they were all totally useless. I think the universities do not teach any proper work related skills. Too much other stuff that has no bearing on anything.

I think that universities tend to teach with the idea of providing an education that may lead to an academic position, with only some parts of the university (e.g., career departments) trying to provide students with work related skills. As a university student myself, I view it in terms the apprentice-journeyman-master model: I expect to be skilled enough to be an 'apprentice' under the mentorship of some 'journeyman' or 'master' programmer by the time I graduate.

As such, I find it strange that your applicants could be "all totally useless". I can understand if they are total greenhorns to how a company operates, or if they are unfamiliar with the tools you use, but surely, if they have any interest in the field at all, they would have acquired skills to begin quickly adapting to what you do?
Post 02 May 2007, 07:42
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
laserlight wrote:
I expect to be skilled enough to be an 'apprentice' under the mentorship of some 'journeyman' or 'master' programmer by the time I graduate.


That's exactly how I view it laserlight. It think your attitude and approach is very good and you should do well. I've hired seven engineers over the past 4 months. I set aside two of those position for software engineers coming straight out of school. Before they arrived, I've assigned each a senior programmer to mentor them. It works for us. We don't expect our new hire college grads to program a killer app single handedly. I find that their experience coming out of school is a mile wide and an inch deep. I put them on specific projects with the senior programmer and teach them the ropes the way we want them to work (we generally don't have to break bad habits we see with some experienced programmers coming in from other companies).

In addition to the two college grads we hired, I'm also putting into place a summer intern program. I'm getting two interns from Johns Hopkins. One starts next week, the other will arrive by the end of the month. These guys are eager to get some "real world" experience, we're anxious to have them look at porting some of our code to Windows Vista, and we don't have to pay them too much (although it's a pretty good salary for a college kid).

You're right Dex. My company won't even consider you if you don't have a degree. Labor rates on contracts is the key driving factor in this policy. We don't have a labor category in software engineering that doesn't require a degree. We can't propose a software engineer (charge rate) that stipulates a degree and substitue someone that doesn't have a degree. It's a bit elitist and certainly exclusionary, but most companies operate this way. We're missing out on a lot of excellent programming talent. One way I get around this is to hire a talented programmer without a degree, put him/her into a support labor category and pay to send them to school at night to get their degrees.
Post 02 May 2007, 12:17
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
laserlight wrote:
...I find it strange that your applicants could be "all totally useless".
Okay, maybe not "totally useless", but not much good either.
laserlight wrote:
I can understand if they are total greenhorns to how a company operates, or if they are unfamiliar with the tools you use, but surely, if they have any interest in the field at all, they would have acquired skills to begin quickly adapting to what you do?
That is most of the problem, they have no interest in the field! I don't feel confident hiring someone that has no interest in the work. It's "just a job" to them and they soon leave for other jobs they find more interesting.
Post 02 May 2007, 12:20
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hidden



Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 49
hidden
Quote:
My company won't even consider you if you don't have a degree.
The point is, that I graduate 4 years college in Russia, but in the US they say it's only 2 years college, so it's not degree and I think I have to go to the college for 2 more years, but it's SO expensive in the US. Sad

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Post 02 May 2007, 16:55
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Dex4u wrote:
One thing i do not understand is if you do not have a degree, they will not give you a job, even if your a talented programmer.
Example: one of the main programmers in the beryl-project is unemployed in the USA Shocked .
See here if you do not know how good beryl is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ&mode=related&search=

NOTE: This the same in the UK Crying or Very sad .


s/good/fucking buggy, apart from being useless eye candy that's even worse than vista.

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Image - carpe noctem
Post 02 May 2007, 22:48
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
HyperVista wrote:
My company won't even consider you if you don't have a degree. Labor rates on contracts is the key driving factor in this policy. We don't have a labor category in software engineering that doesn't require a degree. We can't propose a software engineer (charge rate) that stipulates a degree and substitue someone that doesn't have a degree. It's a bit elitist and certainly exclusionary, but most companies operate this way. We're missing out on a lot of excellent programming talent. One way I get around this is to hire a talented programmer without a degree, put him/her into a support labor category and pay to send them to school at night to get their degrees.

In software engineering and some other disciplines I think that a degree is the thing that most goes close to the guarantee that the guy does not reach excellence. May be good, but nothing more than that. Only self teaching from the age of kid can guarantee a true, deep, true vision of the Art.
Come on guys.. at least here, in the Universities they only teach JAVA!!! It could be ok for an introductionary course, but everything they teach from the start to the end is that "thing"!
I have seen talented guys ruined by the Universities. It will take them 10-20 years to get back to the point they were before entering Hell. Wink

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Greets,
Fabio
Post 03 May 2007, 07:33
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asmfan



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 392
Location: Russian
asmfan
Maverick
Damn right words.
Self-education is the best but degree is like an evidence of your success in this "needed" area.

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Any offers?
Post 03 May 2007, 08:29
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
HyperVista: you see, i wouldn't be so employable as you said Wink
Post 03 May 2007, 08:54
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Maverick and asmfan - well said.

Everyone recognizes that University training is, as I've said, a mile wide in coverage and only an inch deep in substance, i.e. it's fairly superficial. I agree that some of the best programmers are self-taught. I've had this conversation with HR (Human Resourses) and management types over the years. The consistent response I get from them on this topic is the ability to complete a four year degree program demonstrates an ability and willingness to endure and complete a significant task in a structured environment.

When interviewing recent college grads, I'm appauled by the fact they concentrate on Java in their curriculum. There is hardly ever any exposure to assembly (unless they're a Electrical Engineering major and even then it's very cursory).

While my company and many others insist on college degrees, there are many companies that will substitue years of experience for a college degree (normally two years of experience == 1 year of university). That said, guys with college degrees will be paid more (even though they are often not as talented as a self-taught programmer). It's not fair, but that's how it works here. University degrees are highly valued.

Quality software engineers are in very high demand (degree or no degree - you'll just not be paid as much without a degree). You guys are some of the most talented programmers I've seen in one community. None of you would have a hard time finding work here. If you're willing to go to school at night, or enroll in the many self-study programs, many companies will pay for your education because good programmers are in such high demand and the investment is worthwhile. Once you have your degree, six figure salaries are common.

vid, even without a degree, you would be very, VERY employable here. Not only because of your talent, but also because of the area in which you (and MazeGen) work. Wink
Post 03 May 2007, 12:09
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
..or do like I did: found your own company, then degree or no degree will make no difference: only what you can achieve and what you have already achieved will.
Post 03 May 2007, 13:07
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