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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Quote:
Hell no, there's absolutely no way I'd suggest a racist thing like that and you should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting such a racist thought!

This is exactly my point (a purely debate tactic point).

When you say,
Quote:
until your country gives these rights to all of the worlds people.....
you imply it is America's prerogotive to give. I didn't suggest the thought, you implied it in your argument.
I'm not saying that this is your view, I know it is not and it is not my view either. I'm saying your argument implied it and I don't think you want to take that tact in reasoned debate. It's a debate tactic issue I'm trying to impart to you in an effort to be helpful to you. It's not a philosophical point. I offer this to you with absolutely no malice. Really.
Post 10 Mar 2007, 03:12
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

It's a debate tactic issue I'm trying to impart to you in an effort to be helpful to you.


Oh you can call it what you like, but I say again, your country practices repression of speech!


You suffer from the typical superiority complex most U.S citizen suffer from, you want evidence -

HyperVista wrote:

my country can not and should not protect or give such rights to every citizen of the world.


It's your superiority complex that makes you think like that cause frankly all countries should/must protect and give such rights to every citizen of the world..... but why bother when bombing countries back to the middle ages that do not toe the U.S line is far easier Sad

BTW, I'm trying to impart to you this in an effort to be helpful to you. It's not a philosophical point. I offer this to you with absolutely no malice. Really. ...... ya just gotta love those debate tactic huh Wink


Last edited by MichaelH on 10 Mar 2007, 03:45; edited 1 time in total
Post 10 Mar 2007, 03:44
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
HyperVista wrote:
Freedom of Speech is one of the great things about America.
Well, I think a little differently, here. If I endeavored to speak at a local college, where I teach, outdoors, as we do in China, on a "sensitive" topic, I would be dismissed at once by the college. Recently, the college held a "holocaust memorial week". Of course, I would have welcomed the opportunity to point out that the REAL holocaust is represented by the presence of so many Jews, who now run USA, and the concurrent ABSENCE of the indigenous peoples, the "Indians", who formerly lived here, where now, the Jews own high rise condominia. (When I spoke on a similarly sensitive topic in China, I was immediately sacked too, so, from that point of view, there isn't much freedom of speech in either of those countries!!!)
Rulers of any society seek docility in the citizenry, so that they can continue to live in opulence. Anyone who threatens that hegemony, will be eliminated.....
With regard to the myth that USA offers more freedom than other lands, I am reminded of the infamous 2nd amendment to the USA constitution, the "right" to bear arms. Of course, the authors of the constitution and those first amendments were ALL CAUCASIAN MALE LANDOWNERS and MERCHANTS. Women had no vote. Blacks had no vote. Indians were all murdered, so they had no vote, whether male or female. Poor, landless white males had no vote. Of course those first European settlers, the authors of the constitution and the infamous "declaration of independence", had no intention of allowing BLACK SLAVES the right to bear arms. What that second amendment was intended for, was to ensure that white slave owners could use force to kill anyone who attempted to wrest their private property from them, including their slaves--for slaves represented nothing more than property, something inanimate. Many in USA do not realize that slavery was widespread, not just in the south. Ben Franklin was a slave owner. Brown University in New England, i.e. NORTHERN USA was created with money from the slave trade. Abraham Lincoln DID NOT FREE ANY SLAVES except those living in the confederate states, because the capitalist slave owners in Illinois, i.e. his financial backers, opposed the repeal in Lincoln's home state. What has this to do with "freedom of speech"? Well, before discussing whether or not USA enjoys freedom of anything, one ought to realize that it is a rogue state founded by criminals and gangsters, and still run by same, today, in my opinion. May 1, the International working man's holiday, it ought to be remembered, originated with the murder in Haymarket square, Chicago, of half a dozen men demonstrating for a 10 hour work day (it had been 12 hours). Not a whole lot of freedom of speech for those guys, especially the dead ones.
Newspapers here in USA repeat the same nonsense about Palestine, over and over again, ad nauseum. No one questions what right these jews have to steal Palestinian land and water. How could they question? Jews own the broadcasting industry, including the news media. Freedom of speech? When was the last time anyone in USA could read an article critical of the jews who recently compelled the people in Florida to accept a statewide holiday commemmorating a jewish religious day. Where was the debate on the issue? There was none. Fait accompli. Finished. Five jewish judges decreed it a holiday. End of story. There is FREEDOM of speech, for Oliver North, gangster militarist working for Reagan, who sabotaged the Sandinistas. He enjoys the airwaves. He gets television time. Newspapers print his garbage.
Yeah, and the Christian ministries, yeah, they have freedom to speak in soliciting money from widows and orphans. Steal from the poor, to support the crooks. Yeah, and I forgot the glorious tradition of giving the gusanos from Cuba freedom to speak about the "tyranny" in Cuba, where the literacy rate is comparable to that of Japan, i.e. about 20% higher than USA. USA citizenry doesn't have any more clue about genuine freedom of speech, than the Chinese, maybe less, for the average Chinese has no illusions about his/her government's intrusion into their daily lives.
Post 10 Mar 2007, 03:45
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
One minor point tom; you have the right to say whaterver you please. Your employers, college administration, have the right to express their free speech by withdrawing their funding of your employment if they are unhappy with your product.

There is freedom of speech, not freedom from the consequences of that speech in context of a free economy. If the content of your free speech is offensive to the majority of society (anti-semitic, racist, etc.), or to your employers, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences of that speech expressed in the form of that society voting with their dollars, i.e. refusing to pay for that they don't care for.

You can say whatever you wish, you don't need permission from anyone or any government. We don't have to buy it, figuratively or literally.

MichaelH, I fully expect you to call me a racist, idiot, biggot, ... whatever, simply because I don't fully subscribe to your point of view, or have the audacity to suggest a minor flaw in your argument (how evil can I get??). I accept the concequences of my free speech willingly and gracefully. I suggest you try it.

Your tirades are an interesting study on and illustrative of how much you value and respect free speech from others who might differ, no matter how little, from your point of view. They also happen to be very funny. You've given us a glimps into what it must be like in the world according to MichaelH. It must be a terrible way to live.

You guys are FAR too easy to get spun up. It is very funny and highly entertaining. Thanks! Laughing

Encore, encore (as if I had to ask for one ... over to you ... Very Happy )
Post 10 Mar 2007, 12:20
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
So lets see HyperVista, you give tom a speech about accepting the consequences of free speech with offensive content while simultaneously defending your offensive post suggesting that some countries opinions should not be valued ..... kind of weird!

You did a good thing by posting the link to the comic above and it astounds me that you are the same person that was burning mosques only a few months ago but sadly you still have a way to travel.

Quote:

simply because I don't fully subscribe to your point of view


Yes you must subscribe fully to my view of equal rights for all the worlds people, there is no half way, there is no selection where some countries views are discounted as you suggest, it's total agreement with the thought of equal rights for all the worlds people as it's the right view and I will never agree to anything else!

So if you want to belittle me, insult me for those views, go right ahead, you're not the first American to get angry when someone points out their bigotry towards other countries and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last.

BTW HyperVista, I like the "interesting study" debate tactic, I use it myself Wink Maybe some day we should collaborate on a paper about debate tactics Smile
Post 10 Mar 2007, 22:31
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
A fairly level toned response. Thank you.

It was somewhat disjointed and misleading though. I'll try to clear it up by asking you for some clarification:

Quote:
your offensive post suggesting that some countries opinions should not be valued


Where did I suggest some countries opinions should not be valued? Which countries? I suggested to Dustwolf that North Korea, China, Iran, and Syria may not tolerate free speech that took the form of harsh criticism of the government. I said NOTHING about not valuing free speech coming from those countries or their citizens. I agree it is kinda wierd you would interpret my remarks in that way.

I do share your view on equal rights for all world citizens. I participated in Amnesty International activities in Africa, participated in anti-war protests during the Vietnam war (yes, I'm that old Very Happy ). I never said anything about not respecting free speech from anyone. I'm not sure where you got that notion.

Quote:
you are the same person that was burning mosques only a few months ago


WoW!! Shocked Where do I start?? I NEVER advocated burning mosques. That is a real doozie MichaelH. If you go back and re-read that thread you will recall I was pointing out to you that there were no mosques being burned in America and given that fact, it's difficult to sustain your position that America was/is engaging in a crusade against muslims. I never advocted burning of mosques. I simply said no mosques were buring and that was proof that there is no American crusade. That you could twist that into me burning mosques is a ridiculous statement and another bizzare MichaelH interpretation. Amazing!

Oh, by the way an update on our discussion whether or not there is an American crusade against muslims; not only are mosques NOT being burned here in America (please read carefully that I am not advocating buring mosques), but Americans have elected a muslim congressman and there is great support here for a muslim presidential candidate (although he no longer practices the muslim faith). (Note again that I am not advocating the burning of mosques Smile ).

Let's examine some examples of your tolerance for others free speech, shall we ..

Quote:
I'm not one for censorship but if vid is still reading this thread, can you move or dump the 10+ pages

Perhaps we should rely on your judgment MichaelH as to what should be read here and what should not .... real sincere respect for freedom of speech MichaelH.

or this gem...

Quote:
I don't give a shit what your religous opinion is you arrogant jerk!!!!


Great example of MichaelH's respect for others right to free speech...

Maybe we really should let MichaelH decide for us what is religious bigotry and what is not ...

Quote:
In future any posts that have religious bigotry in them should be deleted.


Censorship makes freedom of speech so much easier to deal with, doesn't it MichaelH.

Finally:

Quote:
Go get stuffed Tom!

(ooppps, Tom dared to disagree with MichaelH) ...

Quote:
I don't give a shit what your opinion is tantrikwizard. You, tom and rugxulo are just mindless morons

(oopppps, others dared to disagree with MichaelH) ...That can not be tolerated, can it MichaelH?

What were you saying about respecting all views and equal rights for all people around the world??? Hmmm?? I guess we need to look to you to help us determine which views are worthy of respect, eh MichaelH? Laughing

I agree with you that I have a ways to go. I hope to learn and grow each day. I value your views and hope to learn a little from them each time we discuss things here on this forum. Let's try to keep the dialogue factual as to what was actually said.

While I'd be honored to collaborate with you on a paper about debating, it's way too boring a topic for me. Smile tom tobias is a much better debater than I.


Last edited by HyperVista on 11 Mar 2007, 17:14; edited 5 times in total
Post 10 Mar 2007, 23:17
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
MichaelH: can you give some evidence about repressing someone's freedom of speech in USA?
Post 11 Mar 2007, 16:35
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
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tom tobias
vid wrote:
can you give some evidence about repressing someone's freedom of speech in USA
here's a summary of some notable instances:
http://www.usaweekend.com/02_issues/020519/020519travel.html
see, particularly, number 7: Haymarket square massacre.
Let us not forget the slaughter of the aboriginal peoples, who enjoyed very little freedom to exist, let alone speak. Today, only a smattering of folks remain, living in utter destitution.
HyperVista wrote:
...a much better debater than ....
on this forum, even in this section, Heap, what counts is (a) honesty of expression, (b) desire to learn.
We are, none of us, particularly skilled in the art of writing or debating, hence our (generally) rather sophomoric rejoinders. What counts is not a polished response, but an accurate, and honest one. As vid often reminds us, correctly in my opinion, we need to add references, particularly to support our more esoteric, unconventional suggestions. Where Heap can be especially useful, in enhancing our nascent programming skills, is to compel us to think methodically, logically, with a view toward clarifying some particular point--in the case of this thread, "freedom of speech". The same skills, when applied to computer programming, lead to a more readable program, with a clearer definition of the data structures, and a more logical algorithm, governing program flow.
Smile
Post 11 Mar 2007, 17:58
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Thank you tom. Haymarket is a very good example. Lincoln jailed 13,000 civilians during the Civil War for expressed pro-Southern views. There are many other examples, as you have pointed out.
http://apollo3.com/~jameso/first5.html

Quote:
Lincoln illegally suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War and simply ignored an order by the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court to release a political prisoner.

I think it is clear then that once again the first amendment failed to protect free speech in time of crisis. The next time free speech was challenged during wartime was World War I. During that war, run by a liberal Democratic president, Congress passed the Espionage Act of 1917, which forbade among other things, promoting insubordination or refusal of duty among the armed forces. Three persons convicted under this act appealed their convictions to the Supreme Court, arguing that their activities were privileged and shielded from prosecution by the first amendment. In these cases, the illegal behavior consisted of publishing a pamphlet opposing the draft, publishing a pamphlet sympathetic to Germany, and speaking out in favor of socialism.

Had the three defendants, including Eugene V. Debs, been judged by a Supreme Court sympathetic to the natural human right of free speech, their convictions would certainly have been overturned. History, however, played a cruel trick on them. The judge assigned to write the opinions of the court in all three cases was thoroughly Hamiltonian and Federalist and was the most vociferous critic of natural rights theory America has ever seen-- Oliver Wendell Holmes.


It seems that in times of crisis, freedoms errode, but eventually reason seems to have a way of restoring balance to a degree. The so called "Patriot Act" is a good example of things going wrong.
I think if fair to say that overall, one is free to say just about anything short of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre and making direct specific threats against the president. I also think you're not allowed to encite a riot.

tom, once again, you've proven my point about your superior ability to convey an idea and make a point. I have learned much from you.


Last edited by HyperVista on 11 Mar 2007, 20:13; edited 1 time in total
Post 11 Mar 2007, 19:00
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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
vid wrote:
MichaelH: can you give some evidence about repressing someone's freedom of speech in USA?
listen to this guy http://boortz.com/ online for a great example of free speech in the US. (he's rather funny too)
Post 11 Mar 2007, 19:00
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

MichaelH: can you give some evidence about repressing someone's freedom of speech in USA?


Yes, I can give millions of examples, how about this one


HyperVista wrote:

my country can not and should not protect or give such rights to every citizen of the world.



backed up by the usual smoke screen American denial of any culpability -


HyperVista wrote:

Where did I suggest some countries opinions should not be valued?



How about this quote from http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=6140&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20 -


HyperVista wrote:

you didn't see those pictures of guys dancing around on stage with enriched plutonium some months ago? they're pushing full ahead with nuclear weapons development despite UN and world wishes to the contrary. their current leader believes it's his destiny to bring about some predicted Islamic revolution by starting the "end of times" via world conflict..... yeah, that's the kind of leader you want with access to nukes. oh yeah, and he's been spouting something about incinerating Israel....


Was there an Iranian around to put forward their point of view when HyperVista spewed his hatred all over the place Sad No there wasn't, just the usual arrogant American ranting their point of view. If you haven't got a balance debate where all sides can put their point of view, you've got repression of speech.

Of course HyperVista will never admit this type of repression as being repression at all let alone admit that he's a bigot in sheep clothing Sad
Post 11 Mar 2007, 21:55
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Oh, come on MichaelH. You can do better than that! Smile

You stll fail to see my point when I said, "my country can not and should not protect or give such rights to every citizen of the world"???

Okay, let me put it this way. You demand that America give every country freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and value everyone's opinions. That demand implies that America is world dominant and can give such benefits to the whole world on it's own choosing. That's a ridiculous position for you to take. Should New Zealand petition America for basic rights? That's what you are implying in your demand. I'm saying America can not, does not, and should not rule the world population in that way. Put your thinking cap on and get a clue, my friend.

You still haven't showm any examples of my experssing the sentiment that others opinions and voices should not be heard or valued.

Regarding my comments about Iran and nuclear weapons, the United Nations feels the same way. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6205295.stm
Is the United Nations a hate spewing organization?

Quote:
Of course HyperVista will never admit this type of repression as being repression at all let alone admit that he's a bigot in sheep clothing

Now there's the MichaelH we've all come to know Laughing
Perhaps vid should censor me ... Laughing
Post 11 Mar 2007, 22:29
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
HyperVista wrote:

That demand implies that America is world dominant and can give such benefits to the whole world on it's own choosing. That's a ridiculous position for you to take. Should New Zealand petition America for basic rights?


Giving equal rights to all the worlds people starts with the individual, not governments! I guess as an American, such a simple belief is below your intellectual magnificence. So I'll show you how such a belief works. When you see hatred in public forums like this -

HyperVista wrote:

you didn't see those pictures of guys dancing around on stage with enriched plutonium some months ago? they're pushing full ahead with nuclear weapons development despite UN and world wishes to the contrary. their current leader believes it's his destiny to bring about some predicted Islamic revolution by starting the "end of times" via world conflict..... yeah, that's the kind of leader you want with access to nukes. oh yeah, and he's been spouting something about incinerating Israel....


You stand against such bigotry and ask the person to stop spreading their hatred ..... pretty easy really Wink
Post 11 Mar 2007, 23:48
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Quote:
Giving equal rights to all the worlds people starts with the individual, not governments!

Right on MichaelH. Absolutely brilliant. Cool I think you got my meaning.

Each individual must seek and demand their rights. Speak out against injustices. You watch American news, you must have seen coverage of demonstrations in the streets here against all sorts of injustices. Individuals making a difference. America (a government) can not provide freedoms, it starts with individuals (such as yourself). That is all I was trying to say. Progress.

Now, on the issue of Iran. Let's try another mind experiment. Pretend there is a nation called Windowstopia. They hate FASMtopia. Windowstopia strives to develop a nuclear bomb stating all the while, "FASMtopia must be incinerated off the face of the earth". Is it unreasonable, and hate speech for some member of MASMtopia (a third party assembly language country) to say, "gee, do we really want those guys in Windowstopia to have their finger on the nuclear bomb?" Lastly, an alliance of all assembly language nations agree that Windowstopia should stop development of the bomb. Given this imaginary scenario, is it really hate speech and bigotry of someone from MASMtopia to opine the Windowstopia should not have the bomb? Wink
Post 12 Mar 2007, 00:17
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
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LocoDelAssembly
However those ficticious countries (USA and Israel in real life?), already has war heads and the later one said that they will use some against Iran if them doesn't stop the nuclear development. I read that as "don't develop this evil thing, but if you continue I will use my already developed evil thing on you before you finish your development. Sorry, I like to have the power monopoly at all cost".

And about UN well, USA disobey UN and attacked Iraq anyway so, why Iran should agree with UN and keep unarmed when later UN does nothing to protect those countries? Again, USA attacked Iraq when UN dissaprobed it but Bush claimed Iraq to respect all international treaties with the prisoners USA soldiers. I read it as "I will not agree with any treaty if I don't want but you must agree with all of them".
Post 12 Mar 2007, 00:45
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
HyperVista, your "Windowstopia FASMtopia MASMtopia" nonsense is just another example of the endless U.S propaganda (repression of speech) that pours out of the U.S everyday insisting Iran is a mad nation with it's finger on a nuclear button ..... STOP PUSHING YOUR BIGOTRY!!!!


HyperVista wrote:

Right on MichaelH. Absolutely brilliant.


Sure HyperVista, like you were arguing my point all along ..... but I guess it's great you finally admit you were wrong even if you won't admit it publicly.
Post 12 Mar 2007, 00:54
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
Sadly, I can't argue with any point you make LocodelAssembly.

The point I'm trying to make with MichaelH is, is it hate and bigotry if one individual (me) states, "it's not a good idea for Iran to have a nuclear weapon given their recent statements about incinerating Israel off the face of the earth."? I don't see that as a hate filled bigotted statement, but accept that others may see it that way. It's just my opinion and like the old saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one".

Lets see MichaelH, you first argue that:
Quote:
So until your country gives these rights to all of the worlds people, your country is one of the countries in the world that practices repression of speech!

and then you argue that:
Quote:
Giving equal rights to all the worlds people starts with the individual, not governments!


So, MichaelH, which is it? America must provide freedom of speech OR only the individual, not governments must provide for freedom of speech? Shocked

A total shift in your position toward my point, and you want to argue:
Quote:
Sure HyperVista, like you were arguing my point all along
Laughing Laughing Laughing


Last edited by HyperVista on 12 Mar 2007, 02:17; edited 2 times in total
Post 12 Mar 2007, 01:08
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white_wight



Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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white_wight
MichaelH wrote:
Every country in the world must report the facts as they are, the complete truth with no bias attached. Your country in no way does this.
I say again, your country practices repression of speech!


No, no Smile .. It's just that they (U.S.) struggle for hypocrisy Laughing
Post 12 Mar 2007, 01:16
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
HyperVista wrote:
It's just my opinion and like the old saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooning
wikipedia, in the article about "mooning", cited by vid to commence this thread, wrote:
Mooning is generally considered a rude and insulting act (though less offensive than flashing). Mooning is considered offensive because the buttocks are considered taboo (due to their association with defecation), and mooning exposes the victim to this taboo.
Apart from any scatalogical inferences concerning the buttocks and "assholes", i.e. anus, (plural ani), what else can we take away from this interesting thread?
How about exposing (nudity) the currents underlying FASM? What about freedom of expression to write code versus writing programs? Who gains from the free distribution of FASM? Who gains from this public forum? How does this public forum help to repudiate the awful massacres and diabolical activities of the USA government directed against the poor inhabitants of Iraq, whose only crime was to be born on top of an oil field? Freedom of speech? Can one not produce EXCELLENT results using FASM in a dictatorship, e.g. the Vatican, or China? Do we require freedom of expression to use FASM successfully? Is FASM's growth retarded by exercise of powerful adversaries working hard to prevent freedom of choice? Is FASM's development inhibited in certain countries, like China, Myanmar, Bangla Desh, Iran, Pakistan, Uruguay, Tanzania, Korea, where freedom of speech is unknown, and freedom to be executed for opposing the politicians is the norm? Until relatively recently, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Russia, countries whose programmers form an influential segment of this FASM forum, had zero opportunity to express themselves publically. How about now, at present? Does their new found "freedom" translate into a new impulse for creativity, or is the chaos resultant from "free enterprise" killing FASM in those places? Can FASM lead to a movement for political openness? Is the free distribution of FASM an incentive or irrelevant to a young nation's desire for autonomy from traditional spheres of economic power, whether aligned with USA/Britain/Australia/Canada, or OPEC (oil nations), or some other political axis? Doesn't a thread on freedom of speech require some input from FASM partisans, which explores, explains, or excoriates traditional thinking in computer science, i.e. ideas derived from USA or their German antecedents? I believe that we need to progress away from anatomical inferences, and refocus our attention on issues of free speech related to addressing FASM in the world, as it relates to freedom of expression--including freedom to engage in commerce without reliance upon m$.
Smile
Post 12 Mar 2007, 02:54
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


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LocoDelAssembly
Tom, Uruguay??? I think that country doesn't belong to the same country bag of China, Korea, etc (though, very probably in the past like Argentina in any of the military de facto governments but I don't know much of the Uruguay history).
Post 12 Mar 2007, 03:29
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