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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7715
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
I see that the so-called "trusted computing" (really an ironical name), which I've been very afraid of since the first time I heard about it, becomes more and more unavoidable, even though it reaches the high levels of absurdity at the same time: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Are people really going to accept it?

Well, there is still some hope... The DRM is against all the ideas that fasm is also a manifestation of. I may just hope that writing in assembly will not become illegal one day... Mad
Post 17 Feb 2007, 15:46
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Mac2004



Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 313
Mac2004
Quote:

I may just hope that writing in assembly will not become illegal one day... Mad


I agree with you. Assembly is the language I prefer.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 17:28
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Tomasz wrote:
...so-called "trusted computing" (really an ironical name), .....reaches the high levels of absurdity ... : http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Peter Gutmann, in this reference above, wrote:

Vista's content protection mechanism only allows protected content to be sent over interfaces that also have content-protection facilities built in. Currently the most common high-end audio output interface is S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format). Most newer audio cards, for example, feature TOSlink digital optical output for high-quality sound reproduction, and even the latest crop of motherboards with integrated audio provide at least coax (and often optical) digital output. Since S/PDIF doesn't provide any content protection, Vista requires that it be disabled when playing protected content [Note E]. In other words if you've sunk a pile of money into a high-end audio setup fed from an S/PDIF digital output, you won't be able to use it with protected content.

Say you've just bought Pink Floyd's “The Dark Side of the Moon”, released as a Super Audio CD (SACD) in its 30th anniversary edition in 2003, and you want to play it under Vista. Since the S/PDIF link to your amplifier/speakers is regarded as insecure for playing the SA content, Vista disables it, and you end up hearing a performance by Marcel Marceau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Marceau
instead of Pink Floyd.

Points to the need for a new OS, based upon a much simpler architecture, all open specification.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 18:08
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yumka



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Tenochtitlan
yumka
boicot vista
Post 17 Feb 2007, 19:07
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Quote:
boicot vista


Absolutely! Early market analysis indicates that very few are upgrading voluntarily. However, in this part of the US, it is almost impossible to find a new machine in the typical retail outlets that doesn't have Vista pre-installed. Evil or Very Mad

Btw, Trusted Computing and DRM are two separate issues. Trusted Computing is aimed at securing platforms from malicious attack by implementing TPM (Trusted Platform Module), UEFI, etc. to ensure key systems files are not tampered with or altered to effect system compromise.

Unfortunately, the DRM folks are using some features of Trusted Computing to effect content protection. Most prominent in their scheme is the TPM, which has a unique identifier. Some DRM implementations use the unique TPM identifier to restrict viewing/playing of the content to the machine that "paid for" the content. They can even put timers on the content, as in "you may play this song for the next hour" and after that the song can not be played, etc.

If coding in assmbly language becomes illegal, let the underground insurgency begin here on this board!


Last edited by HyperVista on 17 Feb 2007, 19:50; edited 1 time in total
Post 17 Feb 2007, 19:36
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7715
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
I was not aware of the other meaning of the "trusted computing" term - every time I heard about it, it was related just to content protection. Can you give some references?
Post 17 Feb 2007, 19:49
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Yes, the Trusted Computing Group (TCG) is the international organization responsible for the architecture and implementation of Trusted Compting.
https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/home

You'll see the various committees established to develop standards for storage, TPM, mobile, etc. https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/about/

This quote is from their FAQ section:

Quote:

Was TCG formed to specify Digital Rights Management (DRM) technologies?
TCG specifications do not provide all the necessary technical elements required for DRM. It is conceivable that developers could build their own DRM solutions that would operate on systems with Trusted Platform Modules, but TCG specifications alone are not DRM solutions.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 19:55
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7715
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Anyway, the TC defined this way is still the opposite of the state, when the user of a computer can "trust" the machine - the whole thing is about making the machine protected not only from malicious attack by other people, but also from the owner of the machine himself. And it would disallow programming in assembly using fasm just as we do it now (as the fasm-generated code, would not be "trusted", of course; well, even fasm itself wouldn't be trusted perhaps, as any other unsigned code).
And protecting the owner of a computer from running the "untrusted" code is just another form of content control and protection.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:02
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Artlav



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Moscow, Russia
Artlav
I remember reading about Intel's intentions to make a hardware anti-virus and anyi-hacker solution by creating a hardened version of PC, which will only run certified code and only accept certified hardware. That was in mid-90's, and was never made.

The Vista is not even released properly yet. There is no software, that runs on it only, there is no hardware that supports it's "features", there is no HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies on the market, It's not yet time to judge the scale of MS errors.

So, i think that all this hype with content control will dissipate on it's own, either by realisation that it is actually harmless or circumgoable, or by overthrow of MS monopoly.
And anyway, what can be run can be cracked.

HyperVista wrote:

However, in this part of the US, it is almost impossible to find a new machine in the typical retail outlets that doesn't have Vista pre-installed. :evil:


btw, is there such things as radio markets, hardware stores or computer parts stores in US? Like a place when you can buy a new videocard for a PC upgrade? Or the computers are sold only en whole, like washing machines?
Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:06
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Trusted Computing, as defined by the TCG, is focused on the interfaces to and implementation of TPM and EFI (the new BIOS). I don't think anything in there will preclude us from writing and using fasm code.

Btw, I think there are many "interesting" aspects of EFI (such as pre-Boot OS-like functionality and pre-Boot networking capabilities..... pre-Boot!!).

Attached is the PC-client specification from TCG.


Description:
Download
Filename: TCG_PCSpecificSpecification_v1_1.pdf
Filesize: 399.46 KB
Downloaded: 1048 Time(s)

Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:23
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yumka



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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yumka
Very ironic, that in an OS called Vista (what is a term in spanish for the sense of seen), you can see things in your own computer. Very Happy

Not Vista, better a blind OS, so you are able to see all.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:25
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
Quote:
btw, is there such things as radio markets, hardware stores or computer parts stores in US? Like a place when you can buy a new videocard for a PC upgrade? Or the computers are sold only en whole, like washing machines?


Yes, there are many such places and stores, and many on-line stores to buy parts to build your own machine. I build all my own machines from components. But many people here are lazy and just want to go to the store and buy a machine off-the-shelf, or order one pre-made from Gateway.com, Dell.com, etc., just like a washing machine as you say. Very Happy

I have a collegue who complained the other day about not being able to find a computer that didn't have Vista (he shopped all day). I told him to build his own machine. He said it was too much trouble .....

Yes, some years ago Intel tried to implement hardened platform, but it went nowhere. In fact, privacy groups were outraged because of a unique identifier in each processor. It fizzled shortly after that. I think the same reaction will happen with the TPM.
Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:29
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
Face it, the idea of using your computer for multimedia is considered dangerous because of the power of the Internet and the ease of sharing files. (I don't really watch movies or listen to songs much on mine, but whatever, I do agree it's aggravating to have so many restrictions.)

Yes, Vista is basically being bundled on everything. It's a trite answer, but just dual boot Linux, if you can. Or get eComStation or SkyOS instead. (Good luck changing MS's mind about anything.)

Quote:

there is no HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies on the market


There have been several movies in both formats released in the U.S. (Slither, Click, and others I forget ... search at Amazon or wherever).

P.S. I saw an ad for a Blu-Ray player (only) that costs like $999! Why would anyone buy that instead of a PS3 ($600, and more functionality too!)??
Post 17 Feb 2007, 20:41
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Artlav



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Moscow, Russia
Artlav
yumka wrote:
boicot vista

How to Install Windows Vista
Post 17 Feb 2007, 22:11
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okasvi



Joined: 18 Aug 2005
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Location: Finland
okasvi
Artlav wrote:
yumka wrote:
boicot vista

How to Install Windows Vista


Laughing


I dont see myself installing vista anytime soon(before sp1)...

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Post 17 Feb 2007, 22:24
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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MCD
yumka wrote:
boicot vista

as for my part, I have already boycotted entire M$! only got some debian right here.

Artlav wrote:

btw, is there such things as radio markets, hardware stores or computer parts stores in US? Like a place when you can buy a new videocard for a PC upgrade? Or the computers are sold only en whole, like washing machines?
I always build my machines on my own.

Even if TPC will emerge, I don't think that assembly programs or assemblers will become illegal, because I will have to use assemblers to finish my study, probably some MIPS or ARM one, so either making assemblers illegal won't work or I will need a special "business licence"

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Post 17 Feb 2007, 23:45
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
Quote:
Anyway, the TC defined this way is still the opposite of the state, when the user of a computer can "trust"

not "user". It's machine real owner (eg. microsoft, or TCG, or someone - holder of the key), that can trust all other machines. Not user.

In this manner, trusted computing is a good name (but bad idea)
Post 18 Feb 2007, 01:27
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DOS386



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1901
DOS386
Quote:
The hell of "trusted computing"


Agree ... it IS hell Sad

Quote:
I have already boycotted entire M$


Me too ... Sad

I rejected XP when released 5 years ago and did keep my mind about it,
unlike most other people ...
I reject Vista now ... in 5 years I'll be alone with this opinion I guess Sad

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Post 18 Feb 2007, 01:43
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Post 18 Feb 2007, 04:06
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
rugxulo - it's ironic that you would post Vista install advice on your post number 666 in a discussion titled "the hell of trusted computing" Twisted Evil Laughing
Post 18 Feb 2007, 05:09
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