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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
Though I have not changed my stance on the immorality of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I have revised my earlier stated position, after reading some useful articles and books on the subject:
http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=6409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40
Umm, it looks like I was in error when I suggested that the Japanese government sought to surrender in May 1945. The following authors address this issue with great thoroughness:
Hiroshima Diary by Michihiko Hachiya, M.D. 238 pages, 1995 University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill.
The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb by Gar Alperovitz , 847 pages, 1995 Alfred A. Knopf publisher, New York.
The Rising Sun by John Toland 954 pages, 1970 Random House publisher, New York
Downfall by Richard B. Frank 484 pages, 1999, Random House, New York.
"Bomb's away at the Smithsonian" by Sam Marullo in Peace Review June 1996 volume 8, pages 207-213.
The latter article explains how the forces of militarism in USA compelled the Smithsonian Institute to cancel an exhibit, on the 50th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima, because of numerous documents refuting the government's main claim of support for dropping the bomb: i.e. that it would save millions of USA soldiers' lives during the forthcoming invasion.

In conclusion, I apologize to all FASM forumers for my assertion, long held, that the USA government deliberately refused to accept the terms of surrender, until after the bomb was dropped. I now believe, based upon reading these four books, that in the time period I was describing, i.e. early summer, 1945, the government of Japan had little or no intention of surrendering. I still do not accept the hypothesis that dropping the bomb was justified, but there again, maybe I am simply ill informed. For sure, I have no references to document my prior assertion that Japan's government sought to conclude hostilities in May 1945. I have not changed my attitude about the inappropriateness of (1) dropping the bomb in August 1945, or (2) the Korean invasion, or (3) the invasion and slaughter of the people of Viet Nam, or (4) the invasion and murder of the poor people of Iraq.
Post 10 Feb 2007, 22:37
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
tom tobias wrote:
In conclusion, I apologize to all FASM forumers for my assertion, long held, that the USA government deliberately refused to accept the terms of surrender, until after the bomb was dropped. I now believe, based upon reading these four books, that in the time period I was describing, i.e. early summer, 1945, the government of Japan had little or no intention of surrendering.

Should we, FASM forumers, say something like "apology accepted"? Smile

tom, please keep rationally challenging our views on different issues. This forum needs knowledgeable members like you! Smile

YONG
Post 11 Feb 2007, 08:51
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
thanks for exploring it Wink
Post 11 Feb 2007, 10:21
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
After rugxulo's nine page regurgitation of hatred for those different to himself in the Buddhism thread that left me saddened to realise that the evil the U.S does may never end, I find this post, where an American rejects his country's wrong doings, some what soothing, thanks Tom. Whether Japan offered a surrender or not is however immaterial as it was a crime against humanity, surrender or not.

As for the other actions of the U.S you've mentioned, only four items? I thought a man of your learning could come up with a lot more Wink


Last edited by MichaelH on 12 Feb 2007, 00:14; edited 1 time in total
Post 11 Feb 2007, 21:01
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
MichaelH: i challenged tom to provide some evidence of his statements some 40 days ago. I think he read (most) books afterward, and considering number of pages and (free) time he had, i think this is decent time Wink
Post 11 Feb 2007, 21:34
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
that evil American wrote:

I have revised my earlier stated position ...


HE'S A no-good, dirty LIAR! (Can't they EVER get their facts straight?!)

What did you know and when did you know it?! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

(... marching and protesting in the streets ...)

[??? burning in effigy rag dolls of tom he's-biased ???]

EVIL like Hitler! tom lie-to-us is 21 times worse than Hitler!

<!@# boycotting all of tom to-fool-us' threads from now on !$!@#>

P.S. War ain't all bad (cool song; sorta fun card game, especially the Egyptian variant). Laughing
Post 11 Feb 2007, 22:41
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
rugxulo: we should burn him at stake now, right? or drown after "swimming test"? Razz Wink

i think it's honorable to admit a mistake.
Post 11 Feb 2007, 23:01
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
rugxulo wrote:
that evil American wrote:


EVIL like Hitler! tom lie-to-us is 21 times worse than Hitler!


I suspect it's only about 18 times worse that Hilter ...... wouldn't you agree Vid? Smile
Post 12 Feb 2007, 00:07
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OzzY



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OzzY
Heil Tom! Laughing
Post 12 Feb 2007, 01:04
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vid
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vid
MichaelH: you mean, he spared Japenese, killin only other 6 races? hmmm
Post 12 Feb 2007, 01:58
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
What Vid and I are referring to is that it's seems to my horror I share the same problem as most in the western world of viewing history as being what the U.S says it is and thankfully Vid corrected my ignorance with the following -

Vid - Buddhism thread wrote:

well, hitler "did" some 6-7 million jews AND 20 million slavic people, don't forget about those. So it's just 18 times or so...


Thanks Vid

Until the world recognises all injustices and not just what the U.S says is an injustice, there's never going to be peace.

Equal rights for all no matter religion or race, that should be our goal..... of course that might mean those who preach their view as being more important/correct than that of other race and religions, may have to change their ways to bring about lastly peace ..... isn't that right rugxulo Wink
Post 12 Feb 2007, 02:44
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Maverick



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Maverick
Tom is a great example of an intelligent, unbiased person with a strong and sincere opinion (who said that being objective and unbiased makes you neutral?).

My own opinion about the nukes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is similar, with the difference that I think they were more a message to the USSR than to Japan (let's say 65% and 35%, so to speak).

I think Tom is a "true USA citizen" (as rare as it can be today), I mean in the spirit of its great Constitution. It makes me furious to think about some Bush-style-lamers that would call him not-patriot or other bullshit like that. There's no honour without truth!

Bush-and-friends will probably++ lose power at the next elections, but unfortunately the political system in itself is corrupt to the bones, so that won't make a true huge difference, but at least could make the damage (to the USA and expecially the rest of the world) smaller.
Post 12 Feb 2007, 10:16
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vid
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vid
oh, that's what you meant.
Post 12 Feb 2007, 10:16
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rugxulo



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rugxulo
Maverick wrote:
Tom is a great example of an intelligent, unbiased person with a strong and sincere opinion (who said that being objective and unbiased makes you neutral?).


Nobody is unbiased. Even believing is nothing is still believing. (FYI, the U.S. government treats atheism as an actual religion because of this.)

Maverick wrote:

Bush-and-friends will probably++ lose power at the next elections, but unfortunately the political system in itself is corrupt to the bones, so that won't make a true huge difference, but at least could make the damage (to the USA and expecially the rest of the world) smaller.


George W. Bush is 99.44% guaranteed to not be the next president (two term limit).
Post 13 Feb 2007, 18:29
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MCD



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MCD
rugxulo wrote:

George W. Bush is 99.44% guaranteed to not be the next president (two term limit).
Unless he manages to pass a law that allows longer terms in his remaining legislative period Wink

This is such a great place, cause you will have trouble speaking about Hitler objectively in the German public cause most people still act in a very affective manner if you talk about HiItler and the nazi past here. So you can say that he (also) damaged his own "nation" more than he helped it, which almost applies to every "good" dictator Very Happy .

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Post 13 Feb 2007, 19:42
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vid
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vid
I always wondered how do the germans look at their own past...
Post 13 Feb 2007, 19:48
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MCD



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MCD
vid wrote:
I always wondered how do the germans look at their own past...
very mixed, for those who can think rational about it.

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Post 13 Feb 2007, 21:33
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
MCD wrote:

This is such a great place, cause you will have trouble speaking about Hitler objectively in the German public cause most people still act in a very affective manner if you talk about Hitler and the nazi past here.


MCD it's a shame the German people still can't accept what happened in the past as the events of the first half of the twentieth century were not only the Germans fault as the powers of the time all had a hand in it.

It may not be known to many but plans were already put in place long before world war one (WW1) occurred. For example, New Zealand was/is a part of the British empire and in 1911 (three years before the start of WW1), Briton got our government to start recruiting and training men for military duty, something that was only done by volunteers before 1911. It's clearly obvious to me Briton planned to go to war long before 1914 and the assassination of Franz Ferdinand as a reason to go to war was a pretty lame excuse. Of course this lead to WW2 and Hitler etc.

Here's a timeline leading to WW1


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW1/WW1_timeline.htm


So IMO, there is no way the German people should carry the guilt of the past by themselves as we all played a part in what happened...... just my two cents.
Post 13 Feb 2007, 21:48
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Maverick



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Maverick
rugxulo wrote:
Maverick wrote:

Bush-and-friends will probably++ lose power at the next elections, but unfortunately the political system in itself is corrupt to the bones, so that won't make a true huge difference, but at least could make the damage (to the USA and expecially the rest of the world) smaller.


George W. Bush is 99.44% guaranteed to not be the next president (two term limit).

In fact I wrote "Bush-and-friends", I didn't write "George W. Bush".

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Fabio
Post 14 Feb 2007, 08:42
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Maverick



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Maverick
MichaelH wrote:
So IMO, there is no way the German people should carry the guilt of the past by themselves as we all played a part in what happened...... just my two cents.

Deutsche fellows are no worse nor better than any other people. They just happened to be in the wrong situation with the wrong leaders in the wrong historical period. What happened there could have happened anywhere else, although I doubt it could happen today again in the so called western world at least (but we may produce something even worse).

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Greets,
Fabio
Post 14 Feb 2007, 08:46
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