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Would you agree having broadcast-taxes on internet-capable-computers in your country?
yes!
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
no opinion
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
don't know
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
no!
95%
 95%  [ 19 ]
Total Votes : 20

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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
The German government passed a law that makes any hardware able to receive streamable media-content from the internet behave as regular tv or radio, thus one needs to register and pay public-broadcast-tax from 1.1.2007 on for most PCs.

see this link, unfortunately, there is no english version:http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/83110

I'm not stating my opinion here because I want to hear other's first.

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Post 04 Feb 2007, 03:30
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
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tom tobias
MCD wrote:
...thus one needs to register and pay public-broadcast-tax ....I'm not stating my opinion here because I want to hear other's first.

http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~GEL115/salt.html
Richard Cowen wrote:
In ancient times, salt (or the lack of it) could drastically affect the health of entire populations. Trade in salt was very important, and salt was valuable enough to be used as currency in some areas. The Latin phrase "salarium argentum," "salt money," referred to part of the payment made to every Roman soldier, and the word has been carried down the ages into the English word "salary". Everyone must have salt, so it has been a commodity much abused by attempts at monopoly, by individuals, corporations, cities, and nations. The city of Rome may have begun as a salt-trading center, like Venice after it. Certainly the salt traders of the Roman port of Ostia raised the price so high that the state was forced to take over the industry about 506 BC....Salt was taxed by governments from the ancient Chinese and Romans to late medieval Burgundy, where salt was taxed at more than 100% as it came from the salt-works. Extended to the whole of France when Burgundy was absorbed, the notorious salt tax "la gabelle" became necessary to the government. Cardinal Richelieu said that it was as vital to France as American silver was to Spain. The repeal of the salt tax was a major goal of the revolutionaries of 1789, but Napoléon restored it as soon as he became Emperor, to pay for his foreign wars: and it continued until 1945. It is said that income from a salt pan in southern Spain largely financed Columbus' voyages....The Habsburgs would regularly use the salt income as collateral for raising money quickly in times of military emergency. They did it first when Bohemia revolted in 1618 in the Defenestration of Prague, and Protestant forces besieged Vienna. Emperor Ferdinand II mortgaged his salt revenues to pay for the Catholic army that saved Vienna and won the decisive battle of the White Mountain in 1620. The salt revenue of the salt mines of Wieliczka paid for the heroic Polish army under King John Sobieski that rescued Vienna during the Turskish siege of 1683. (In a strange-but true paradox, the Wieliczka salt revenue had passed to the Habsburgs in return for their assistance to the Poles in the Swedish invasion of 1657!) Salt was a state monopoly in Bavaria also. Both Austria and Bavaria sought to promote their own exports and protect their domestic markets from salt imports....
Post 04 Feb 2007, 10:06
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
Interesting read, Tom! By the way, an important Roman street is "Salaria" (i.e. the street of salt).

About the topic, I think it's shameful. In Italy we got to pay for a public TV tax (about 105 Euro each year) for a shameful "service" full anyway of commercials and of shows of the lowest quality, and then they get guests like Sharon Stone and pay them MILLIONS of our money, when they don't throw them away in those "guess this" silly TV shows. I think it's one of the most immoral taxes we pay here (and we pay MANY), also because the public TVs are anyway full of commercials and the service is tightly controlled by our corrupted politicians.

Per contra, the service that e.g. BBC offers is much much more worth the money they ask.

Drumrolls.. I have no TVs, mostly because I do not want to pay that damn tax. And I don't miss the TVs, if I have to watch a movie, I put a DVD in my PC, as well as for the news, I have Internet.

If they'll do also in Italy what they just did in Germoney, then I'll throw away also my PC or I'll go to live abroad. Very Happy
Post 04 Feb 2007, 10:30
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
Maverick wrote:

If they'll do also in Italy what they just did in Germoney, then I'll throw away also my PC or I'll go to live abroad. Very Happy
The problem for us people is, that we can't just throw away PCs!
Because I'm not only using it for Fasm-coding, as you may know, I have planned to get into some kind of IT-business later, and you can't even think about those without computers!

The problem with all that is that also every room that contains PCs able to communicate with the internet must all individually be reported and paid, each 5euro/month, and that's only the beginning!

The funny thing about that is that we already pay the ISP for the connection and service, so we would have another kind of multiple-tax for the same thing!

Also the public-broadcast-tax was built for (realtime) public radio and TV like we still have here in Germany, not for contents with unknown access time, accessible from anyway, anytime with unknown routes.

So this make it even more difficult for small/medium sized IT-enterprises to evolve, from which we already got too few (almost none).

We have protest-campaigns (with members from all social layers including IT-enterprises and some other politicians) that are broadly accepted in the public, as some poll got ~90%.

I hope this law will fall ASAP

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Post 04 Feb 2007, 15:36
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
A few years back here in New Zealand they dumped the broadcasting tax because to many people wouldn't pay it and it cost too much to go to the trouble of putting these people through the justice system just to get them to pay. So if you don't like the tax, don't pay it and tell your friend not too also. If enough of you do it the cost to the system of prosecuting you will not be worth it and they will drop it.

If you get taken to court and fined, don't pay the fine, they won't put you in jail over such a silly thing cause it will cost too much to keep you there in two ways, the cost of feeding you and the fact you're not out earning money so they can tax your income. You've got the internet, so start a movement .... people power, it works.

Why your government can't see that the free market will earn them more in the long run rather than taxing people is beyond me, is there a communist movement happening in Germany?
Post 04 Feb 2007, 22:59
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
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vid
Quote:
any hardware able to receive streamable media-content from the internet

pigeons included?
this "definition" is terrible, it fits for just anything...
Post 04 Feb 2007, 23:24
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
vid wrote:
Quote:
any hardware able to receive streamable media-content from the internet

pigeons included?
this "definition" is terrible, it fits for just anything...

That's the second big problem with this law. You also have to pay for all kind of mobile phone, PDSa, XBOXs and PSP and whatever and even worse, (for example) professional printers with LAN-cable plugs since they can theoretically print(!) out stuff from the internet they got received over the LAN cable Very Happy

Another problem is that many people (including some of some respectable enterprises) (or people's lawers) concider that law even unconstitional.

MichaelH wrote:
A few years back here in New Zealand they dumped the broadcasting tax because to many people wouldn't pay it and it cost too much to go to the trouble of putting these people through the justice system just to get them to pay. So if you don't like the tax, don't pay it and tell your friend not too also.
We already got a very high numbers of person not paying this kind of fee, but apparently this is not enough

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Post 05 Feb 2007, 01:20
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
MCD wrote:
I hope this law will fall ASAP

If anything, this law proves how much stupid and ignorant are politicians (and you ain't seen the Italian ones!! Those are also thief bigtime, not just incredibly stupid and ignorant).

Politicians should get a clue. Like in Austria, where (expecially in the past) it seems that broadband was the enemy of the government or more probably vice-versa (my wedding witness who is from Austria could only now barely afford ADSL, while a smart government should push technology advancement instead of opposing it with taxes and stupid rules!).

AAAAAAAAAAARGH. Wink

You're right though, we can't live without computers anymore. I didn't mean to live without computers, but to throw away this PC and make a new, undeclared, one out of spare boards or even design one with FPGAs. Wink [ possibly NOT Vista (or any other MS OS) compatible ]

End Of Rant ;P

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Fabio
Post 05 Feb 2007, 09:15
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
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Maverick
MichaelH wrote:
Why your government can't see that the free market will earn them more in the long run rather than taxing people is beyond me, is there a communist movement happening in Germany?

I'm not sure that stupid taxes have really much to do with communism. The movement wants to abolish money completely after all (and maybe use only credit cards?). Wink

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Greets,
Fabio
Post 05 Feb 2007, 09:19
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
I think politicians are too eager to pass laws: "Hey, I accomplished this and that, passed such and such laws, re-elect me, I'm tough on crime, etc.". I do think there are too many silly laws, and that increasing them every year by billions is a bit unenforceable. (In particular, a possible future law here limiting 16-year-olds to having no more than 4? passengers in their car, excluding parents, how would you enforce that?!)

tom tobias, Bush must've sacked Iraq for the salt! IT WASN'T THE OIL AFTER ALL! Laughing
Post 05 Feb 2007, 19:08
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
rugxulo wrote:
In particular, a possible future law here limiting 16-year-olds to having no more than 4? passengers in their car, excluding parents, how would you enforce that?!)
In the country I live, 16-year-olds don't have any cars at all Very Happy
Post 06 Feb 2007, 20:06
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
rugxulo wrote:
Bush must've sacked Iraq for the salt! IT WASN'T THE OIL AFTER ALL!
Thanks! I always appreciate a bit of humor, even if it comes (as it usually does!) at my own expense......
Umm, well, on the one hand, you are LITERALLY correct, for the modern day equivalent of SALT, is Petroleum.
Black Gold, as we call it here in USA, the world's most profligate user of this precious resource. Like Gold, and SALT, yes, you are correct, oil can be regarded as a salary. In my opinion, Saddam Hussein, while a tyrant, wasn't any worse than the poor people of Iraq have endured during the past several years, since the USA-British invasion began....
Well, how can we prove me wrong? I mean, where are the data on the quantity of innocent civilians murdered under Saddam???? We don't really know, do we? Nope, I don't anyway. I assume, maybe I am in error here, that life under Saddam, was CONSIDERABLY healthier than life during the past several years under the USA/Britain. Why do I write this:
1. Women were free, under Saddam, to OWN property, OWN businesses, OWN automobiles, and DRIVE automobiles WITHOUT a male supervising....
2. Women were not obliged to wear a black cloth hiding them from the world;
3. Market places were crowded with BOOKS, not bombs, under Hussein. The people of Iraq were famous all over the whole world, as one of the most literate, and best read societies on planet Earth. One could find books in AT LEAST four languages OTHER THAN ARABIC, in EVERY market place in Baghdad:
English
French
German
Italian
Why? The Iraqui people revered LEARNING. They valued education. IN this respect, Iraq was the Japan of the Middle East. Today, there is no education, only death and bombing. When the USA and Britain are finally expelled, it will be DECADES before a similarly enlightened administration again permits people to read whatever, whenever. The Muslims for SURE, will deny women their rights as human beings, and they will certainly DENY everyone the right to a scientific and informed explanation about all things in nature. Iraq will be reduced to servitude, again..... Who will benefit from this enslaved condition? Only USA and Britain, who (again) plan to steal Iraq's oil--not their salt.
Post 06 Feb 2007, 21:31
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Oops, I was wrong. The current law supposedly limits 16-year-olds to 4 people while the proposed law would limit it to one (very odd, IMO).

MCD, in the U.S., the legal driving age (anywhere from 14 to 18, usually 16) depends on what state you live in.

tom tobias, I don't think the U.S. is responsible for all the bombings. At some point, the so-called Iraqi freedom fighters need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming the U.S. for all the evil. Bombs, bombs, and more bombs: useless.

Certainly, if the U.S. has their way (highly unlikely), there will be democracy: free speech, education for all, etc. like it is here in the states. Anyways, didn't mean to restart this ol' topic again .... Razz
Post 06 Feb 2007, 21:42
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
"ol" is the Tennessee pronunciation, for those not from USA, for petroleum, oil, so this is a very skillful play on English words:
rugxulo wrote:
Anyways, didn't mean to restart this ol' topic again

On the one hand, he writes that he did not wish to retrace an "old" thread, i.e. debate about Iraq, and at the same time, he indicates awareness that this is ostensibly a topic about computer taxes, not another debate about the political decision to invade Iraq in order to steal her "ol", her petroleum.
The two topics share, of course, a common theme: political graft and corruption, dishonesty, fraud, deceipt, and dismissal of the people. Still, many folks would not have "rugxulo's" skill with English, to have cleverly joined the contraction "ol", often spelled "ole", meaning old, or former, with the (mis)pronunciation of OIL, "ol". (it is actually not mispronounced, if one is from Denmark!!) Well done, sir!!!
Post 06 Feb 2007, 21:57
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
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vid
Quote:
1. Women were free, under Saddam, to OWN property, OWN businesses, OWN automobiles, and DRIVE automobiles WITHOUT a male supervising....
2. Women were not obliged to wear a black cloth hiding them from the world;
3. Market places were crowded with BOOKS, not bombs, under Hussein. The people of Iraq were famous all over the whole world, as one of the most literate, and best read societies on planet Earth. One could find books in AT LEAST four languages OTHER THAN ARABIC, in EVERY market place in Baghdad:
English
French
German
Italian
references please? Wink
Post 06 Feb 2007, 22:34
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
Post 07 Feb 2007, 00:51
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
Fur mich, ich glaube diese gesetz ist scheisse!!

tschuess MCD!

Und danke fur die artikel.
Post 07 Feb 2007, 02:53
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
little correction:
HyperVista wrote:

;Grammatically not 100% correct German: Für mich, ich glaube dieses Gesetz ist scheiße!!
;this is better:
Ich finde/bin der Meinung, (dass) dieses Gesetz scheiße ist!!

tschüss MCD!

Und danke für die Artikel.

what do you mean with "tschüss MCD!" (sounds like someone is going to say goodbye for a long time)?
Post 07 Feb 2007, 03:50
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
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Maverick
rugxulo wrote:

tom tobias, I don't think the U.S. is responsible for all the bombings. At some point, the so-called Iraqi freedom fighters need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming the U.S. for all the evil. Bombs, bombs, and more bombs: useless.

Yes, but Saddam was very able to keep Al Qaeda & Co. out of Iraq, while he was in power (and with a working neck Very Happy ).

Quote:
Certainly, if the U.S. has their way (highly unlikely), there will be democracy: free speech, education for all, etc. like it is here in the states. Anyways, didn't mean to restart this ol' topic again .... Razz

You forget a detail: Iraq is not part of the USA territory (at least officially! Very Happy ) and thus the USA has no right to export its model (that as much good as it may seem to you or me, we don't have the right to say is objectively/absolutely good and the correct one) in the other part of the world, enforcing it with total violence.

I only know that, as Tom said, under Saddam "normal" people (not regime opposers) were living MUCH MUCH better than they do today. And they were 700,000 more than today.
But, about that "regime opposers" thing.. do today's Iraqis that oppose to the USA regime have any better fate than the past opposers (to Saddam) had? No way, thus I don't think it changed much, maybe under Saddam some false trials happened, under the USA it's a cluster bomb that judges you (and your innocent neighbours).

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Greets,
Fabio
Post 07 Feb 2007, 08:44
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
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Maverick
Gern geschehen, alles gute! Very Happy
Post 07 Feb 2007, 08:48
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