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Embrance



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 116
Location: Greece
Embrance
So now im in the university learning programming. To be honest i suck. I suck badly. I will be getting a teacher soon to do some private lesson on C,C++, and Java. We are also learning asm(hell a lot of stuff :/).

The only thing i liked in programming were pascal and asm(though i don't know much on asm,but want to learn.Hell,if i knew i doubt i would use something else,but anyway).

So now i find myself having to learn like 5 languages in one damn year. Do you think its possible? For c,c++,and java i dont wanna be a pro or something.Just be able to make so simple(and a bit advanced programs like the stuff they usually ask at the university).

Now days i coding a bit in php/sql and doing some webmaster stuff(templates and such)

Whatever your suggestions-thoughts are,tell them. Idea
Post 21 Jan 2007, 19:33
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
I will be getting a teacher soon to do some private lesson on C,C++, and Java
This may good too, if he isn't theoretic, but most important thing is to practise.

Quote:
So now i find myself having to learn like 5 languages in one damn year. Do you think its possible?
It's not possible to learn single programming language properly in one year. That is fiction common at universities.

But you can still pass 5 tests, that is much easier than to learn 5 languages Wink
Post 21 Jan 2007, 20:23
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Embrance



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 116
Location: Greece
Embrance
lol,i know to learn a lang you need YEARS of coding. What i have in mind is learn the basics and a bit more. So i could pas the lessons with ease and start soemthign on my own.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 21:43
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
C, C++, Java and Pascal are all similar enough that, once you grasp one fairly well, you should be able to do the basics in the other without too much hassle.

Of course going deep on multiple inheritance, templates, operator overloading etc. will require somewhat Wink more, but the basics are simple enough.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 22:04
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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
Embrance wrote:
lol,i know to learn a lang you need YEARS of coding. What i have in mind is learn the basics and a bit more. So i could pas the lessons with ease and start soemthign on my own.

Learning a language is only part of programming. Programming is continuous learning as there are new technologies and methodologies coming out all the time. The dynamic fields of technology are not for those who just want to learn a language and be finished with learning. A good programmer will be a lifetime student and researcher.
Post 22 Jan 2007, 01:00
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Germany
MCD
Funny, I am at univerity too, I knew about half a dozen different programming languages before, but we only needed 1 language, namely java. The whole rest is just theory. finite-state automata, markov-algorithms /semi thue systems, complexity theory, formal grammers, regular expressions and EBNF, programming concepts (like imperative, OOP and others), OS-concepts and stuff...
Post 22 Jan 2007, 02:59
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
plastic bagman wrote:
...we only needed 1 language, namely java. The whole rest is just theory. finite-state automata, markov-algorithms /semi thue systems, complexity theory, formal grammers, regular expressions and EBNF,...
I should not expect more from a guy who never delivered my plastic bags....
May I ask, in all humility, whether you can access the timer on the motherboard with JAVA? "just theory"???hmmm. Hidden Markov modeling may be great for situations in which Bayesian conditions exist, but what about reading data from a factory floor robot using DMA controller, while concurrently searching an order data base for confirmation about specified, NOT RANDOM, parameters? I think there is a tad more to learning computer science than Java gibberish. Back to the basics, MCD, Assembly language alone can cure your ills, satisfy your quest for knowledge, AND furnish the missing bags....
Post 22 Jan 2007, 10:15
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
tom tobias: without underlying theory, learning <whatever> language is futile. Once you've gotte your math and comp.sci. theories solidly implanted, you're free (and able) to choose whatever language you want.

And, while I wouldn't do this with any existing implementation, nothing keeps Java from doing what you're saying. Heck, you could do a natively-compiled embedded edition of Java, and turn off automatic garbage collection if you don't fancy that, et cetera.

Does sound weird if the university only teaches Java, though - it ought to show at least a couple procedural, object-oriented and functional languages and cover one or two assembly platforms in computer architecture class.
Post 22 Jan 2007, 10:23
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
just for courious: i got education in evening study (each day after work + saturday) during one year. we were studied (tried):
asm (tasm) under ms dos
pascal (bp and delphi)
c & cpp (bc and vc)
prolog
lisp
sql (msde)
i agree, it all not made us as professionals in each language, but we got some little experience in each system enough to start or continue with later selfeducation. i still did not understand lisp Very Happy and have to spend some time to remember how to declare class template, as i had not ever been software developer, but i can do it if i will need.
btw, these years i only heard about java, php, perl etc. (think, our program was very tight to insert there everything). in addition at home i had just-born baby Smile so, it is hard, but not impossible. and do not study many languages same time - choose one, when will understand it enough free, then start next - it will be hard because of "slightly another syntaxis hell", but more easy as it will have similar constructions, etc.
Post 22 Jan 2007, 11:01
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
DustWolf
Embrance wrote:
Whatever your suggestions-thoughts are,tell them. Idea


Essentially if you go for a programming course they already expect you to know how to program. It's learning the selected languages that you're supposed to be doing there. Most students thus just go for the obvious: Learn exactly what they're asked to learn and not a thing more. I guess that's the best way to pass the tests.

Otherwise, the general idea is that once you know how to program, the choice of programming language is trivial.

1. Assembly is a great place to start because it tells you everything about how things really work and you can use that knowledge to do everything from optimizing software to diagnosing hardware issues (and everything inbetween).

2. Java is one of those things that university profesors adore because it forces you to learn every single principle of programming abstractions before you can start using it. It is, however, otherwise completely useless.

3. C is a great way to notice why said principles are required. While a good idea for a compiler, C is essentially an introduction into a dissaster in regards to coding problems. Due to some aincient relics inside C, I also think you really need to learn Assembly before you start trying to interpret C.

4. Anything resembling a BASIC will be a convenient place to start (e.g. first two weeks) to get the feel of how things work in programming in general. And while making a transition from BASIC to C is not the best of things to try, making the transition from BASIC to Assembly could be rather direct (particularly if you're going for ARM Assembly, according to the ARM programming tutorial).

5. Scripted languages like Perl, PHP, TCL, compare somewhat well to Java, even tho they sometimes seem to lack The Essence of Programming. Most of us here have a general problem digesting Java syntax, which is at the very core of our hate for the language. If you already know PHP and it doesn't frustrate you, you might also be a bit more comfortable with Java, even tho classic Assembly syntax is still far more straightforward.

What I recomend is that if you really want to learn programming and if you think you can spare the time for it while doing the schoolwork precisely as requested, then you should go for one programming language, whichever feels most comfortable for you and learn it good. There will be a click moment when you learn how to come to solutions in the code, at that point all that will be keeping you from being good with other programming languages will be getting used to the syntax.
Post 22 Jan 2007, 11:20
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
<rant>

I do think that the whole idea that "theory is everything, you can do nothing without theory, you must memorize 10 books etc. during the next xx years" idea is too much. It's overkill for a human brain to be expected to remember and understand so much.

More practically speaking, if you play guitar (as some on this forum do), you will often hear "practice your scales, learn chord theory, blah blah blah", and while I don't 100% disagree, I do think it is WAY, WAY, WAY overemphasized and takes a lot of the fun out of it.

In short, do what you enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, you won't learn it well. Plus, why do you want to punish yourself? Because someone else says it's "better"? The human mind is not meant to suffer all the time. A little structure can be a good thing, but too much will fry your brain.

It's almost a competition where "you aren't good until you can do what Eddie Van Halen or Tomasz Grysztar can do". That isn't fair because we're not meant to be clones of everyone else. An entire world of EVH would not be interesting. It's because he's unique that we enjoy him.
(In other words, don't learn something just because everyone else does or says you should: learn what you're inclined towards. Don't completely ignore your own feelings.)

</rant>
Post 22 Jan 2007, 21:35
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

It's almost a competition where "you aren't good until you can do what Eddie Van Halen or Tomasz Grysztar can do".


Tomasz can play the guitar like Eddie Van Halen, wow he's a man of many talents Smile



Quote:

In short, do what you enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, you won't learn it well. Plus, why do you want to punish yourself? Because someone else says it's "better"? The human mind is not meant to suffer all the time. A little structure can be a good thing, but too much will fry your brain.


Good advice rugxulo. I have personally learnt far too many languages over the years. In the end javascript rocks (on windows not linux), you can do anything you want with a few added com objects and it's very easy to use. But then I discovered fasm and now know all I needed to learn for windows programming was javascript and fasm ...... damn, why didn't someone tell me years ago before I fried my brain Sad
Post 22 Jan 2007, 22:42
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
rugxulo wrote:

I do think that the whole idea that "theory is everything, you can do nothing without theory, you must memorize 10 books etc. during the next xx years" idea is too much. It's overkill for a human brain to be expected to remember and understand so much.

You don't need to memorize everything - but you need to be introduced to and understand a whole bunch of things if you want to be a good programmer. You can "forget" the things you don't need on a day to day basis, but having learned stuff previously makes it easier to re-learn when needed, and gives you knowledge on how some problems can be solved.

I assume that if you take a university degree in comp.sci. or comp.eng. it's not just because you think the subject is fun and interesting, but also because you want to be good at it, and probably make a living from it. And imho there's a world of difference between what a hobby programmer needs to understand and what a successfull professional programmer needs (unless you want to do visual basic frontends for databases).
Post 22 Jan 2007, 23:07
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