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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
MHajduk wrote:
how you transcribe nick "shoorick" in pinyin and HanZi?

1. must know the meaning of "shoorick", else, can not transcribe into Hanzi.
2. PinYin equivalent: ShuRiKa
(Chinese words generally end in a vowel, with the exception of "n" sound, as in Pin Yin.)
I predict that YONG will err, and translate "shoorick" into HanZi based upon their sound in PuTongHua. It is an error, because HanZi have no sound equivalent. They are ideograms, and to be translated properly, must represent the meaning of the word "shoorick", not the sound. Some may wonder how the little tiger eating breakfast from his/her Intel cpu container feels about this controversy....I do speak a little tiger, so, if shoorick can record some sounds from his fat beast, I will do my best to translate....
Cool
Post 29 Jan 2007, 11:17
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
First, please note that "cannot" is ONE word, a SINGLE word - "can not" is incorrect! (No offense!)

MHajduk wrote:
does exist phoneme "r" there in Chinese? and (if it doesn't exist) how you transcribe nick "shoorick" in pinyin and HanZi?


By "Chinese", I guess you mean PuTongHua. In that case, the answer is YES. However, also note that my native language is Cantonese, in which there is no "r" sound. In fact, there is no "curl-tongue" sound in Cantonese at all.

Translation is a big topic, a really complicated topic indeed, especially from an eastern language to a western one (or vice versa), with one of the reasons being cultural differences. Very often, it is simply impossible to find an equivalent (or similar) idea in the destination language. (I don't want to go into the details since I am not an expert in this area.)

Anyway, the best Traditional Chinese translation that I could think of, based on Cantonese pronunciation, of "shoorick" is "索域加". Hope that shoorick likes it! Very Happy

YONG


Last edited by YONG on 29 Jan 2007, 14:35; edited 2 times in total
Post 29 Jan 2007, 12:56
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Let me pretend to be an expert in translation (for a little while) to answer some of the points raised by tom.

tom tobias wrote:
... (2) to provide a modern PHONETIC transcription of Chinese words, for YONG, and many, many, (almost all) Chinese folks do not understand, that HanZi are IDEOGRAMS, which lack ANY phonetic trait. They are unpronounceable. They have NO sound associated, or more precisely, they have an INFINITE quantity of sounds associated with them, ...


First, I do understand that Traditional Chinese is an ideogram.

Secondly, while there are no strict / definite / 100% correct rules that relate the pronounciation to a character, some phonetic traits do exist. For example, I previously mentioned that different characters are used to represent "he" and "she" but both have the same pronunciation. In fact, if we divide each of the two characters into two parts (left & right), you will notice that both have the SAME right part, suggesting that the two characters MAY be related in meaning and MAY have the same pronunciation. So, if you know the pronunciation of one of the two characters, you MAY be able to GUESS that of the other. You have, probably, a 50% chance of guessing it right!

tom tobias wrote:
I predict that YONG will err, and translate "shoorick" into HanZi based upon their sound in PuTongHua. It is an error, because HanZi have no sound equivalent. They are ideograms, and to be translated properly, must represent the meaning of the word "shoorick", not the sound.


Due to its colonial history, Hong Kong has developed a number of "generally-accepted" rules for English - (Traditional) Chinese translation. Sometimes, we translate the MEANING of the source. Sometimes, we translate the PRONUNCIATION of the source. Sometimes, we do both. For example, "Cleverly Road" is translated using the mixed approach - "Cleverly" is translated based on the pronunciation while "Road" is translated based on the meaning.

For people's names, we generally use the pronunciation approach. Of course, we would try to find characters that have GOOD meaning, and ideally, meaning that characterizes the person.

For those who are really interested in English-Chinese translation, check the Chinese translation of "Coca-Cola", which is, in my opinion, one of the best translation ever done!

That's all. I am not an expert in translation.

Smile

YONG
Post 29 Jan 2007, 14:33
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
1.yes, tom you maybe right about my pronounsation and i can not say you are wrong in all other, just you suggestions would be handy if i had someone near me speeking in chinese and i had to understand or conversate.
You provided the clue, shoorick, with your illustration of "xing", which you then rewrote, as "sin", demonstrating that you NEED to learn PinYin, for it is NOT pronounced "sin", but rather, as "sheeng". >
yes, it can be my lack, as my english is enough to read, but too bad to express/pronounce/understand pronouncation. that's why i do convert pinyin into Pallady equivalent, then i do know how to pronounce well, as russian set of sounds differ from, say, english.:
ci - цы
qi - ци
xin - синь
xing - син
but, as i told, i do need pinyin mostly to guess proper names in text and, sure, to enter characters with IME. it's impossible to me to find anybody around to speek chinese live, but i can meet hanzi on web and on goods we have a lot here on the market, some even without translation to russian, english or even pinyin Smile thus, characters have more importanse to me.
in one book i met one russian chinesist told: in the China each 10 li changed pronounsation, 100 li - speech, 1000 li - language. only characters are combined china Smile (he told it in 19th century)
finally, i have saved website, which have buttons with playing wavs for each (mostly) sound - best way to understand. i will roar into microphone when i'll have a time Smile fat cat from the topic start escaped last week and did not return yet - we already started to disturb - usually before he was walking 1-3 days Sad
2.YONG
Great! thanks a lot - i will have it as my name in chinese characters now - i do know about problem of name transliteration - it is easy to find sound combination, but everybody aware to catch bad meaning with it Smile
---
ps: i already pass lesson 7 Smile first time when my wife saw me writing hanzi she asked "what are you doing?" i answered: "Calming down my nervous system. Helps very much!" Wink Very Happy
Post 29 Jan 2007, 15:52
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
I predict that YONG will err, and translate "shoorick" into HanZi based upon their sound in PuTongHua. It is an error, because HanZi have no sound equivalent.
I could say same about english. If you see some english word, you cannot be sure how it is read, if you haven't heard it before. But still, 99% of times you can quess the pronounciation.
Post 29 Jan 2007, 17:20
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
YONG wrote:
First, please note that "cannot" is ONE word, a SINGLE word - "can not" is incorrect! (No offense!)
nope, no offense taken. As vid can attest, I make lots of mistakes, though, in this particular case, sorry YONG, you are in error.
dictionary dot com wrote:
Oxford: Can 'cannot' also be written as two words 'can not'? Both cannot and can not are acceptable spellings, but the first is much more usual. You would use can not when the 'not' forms part of another construction ... www.askoxford.com
19. cannot. 1. Grammar. The American Heritage Book of English
Usage. 1996. www.bartleby.com cannot
These two spellings are largely interchangeable, but by far the most common is “cannot” and you should probably use it except when you want to be emphatic:

Sorry, YONG, in this case, I was definitely trying to be emphatic, hence my separation of CAN and NOT. "May not", or even "MUST not" may have been more appropriate to clarify the emphasis to non-native speakers!
YONG wrote:
However, also note that my native language is Cantonese,...
OOPS. Gosh, YONG, this is important, you need to explain to the FASM forum the HUGE differences among the various Sino-Tibetan languages. I guess you mean that your native language is what is called GuangDongHua, by PuTongHua native speakers, but perhaps it is really KeJiaHua (Hakka) or Hokla, or FuJianHua, or anyone of another dozen important languages of South China. Can you elaborate? What you need to explain, especially to shoorick, is that your native language is as close to PuTongHua, i.e. "Chinese", as Swedish is to Spanish or Russian, as close as Polish is to Portugese. What all the various languages of China have in common is HanZi. In other words, China, like Europe, Africa, and many other large places (North and South America, before Columbus) has literally THOUSANDS of languages, many completely unintelligible. HanZi made possible communication between people from north and south, east and west. The beauty of HanZi is that one can communicate, WITHOUT speaking. Each language pronounces HanZi differently, but the meanings are constant.
YONG wrote:
the best Traditional Chinese translation that I could think of, based on Cantonese pronunciation,...
oops. Gosh, YONG, do you not recognize this problem: you are confusing TRANSLATION, with PRONUNCIATION. HanZi have NO pronunciation. You must first ascertain the MEANING of "shoorick", then assign three HanZi which correspond to that meaning (one for each syllable, in Western languages, of course, this word, shoorick, has only two syllables, but in Chinese languages, there will need to be a vowel on the end.....) What shoorick seeks is not "translation". He seeks ASSIGNMENT. He needs someone to assign the correct HanZi to his name. This process has nothing to do with "translation". This is analogous to my discussing limitations of the stack based fpu, when the discussion is focused on SSE 3.
YONG wrote:

Hong Kong has developed a number of "generally-accepted" rules for English - (Traditional) Chinese translation.

Sigh, ....Sigh...NO, NO, no, Yong. This is not a problem of TRANSLATION, and certainly has NOTHING to do with ENGLISH!!! "shoorick" is a Ukrainian name, YONG, not an English name. But, even if it were an English name, you cannot apply "generally accepted" rules based upon this algorithm:
YONG wrote:
Sometimes, we translate the MEANING of the source. Sometimes, we translate the PRONUNCIATION of the source.
NO. ABSOLUTELY NO. HanZi ONLY represent MEANING, not sound.
"shoorick" is a Roman letter representation of a sound, a Ukranian sound, now, to assign HanZi to his name, one must know the MEANING of "shoorick". Since we do not know any Ukranian, we can assign to "shoorick" ANY meaning we like: I suggest "TIGER trainer", since we can see, in shoorick's first post of this thread, his considerable skill in taming the great beasts. Oops, uh oh!
shoorick wrote:
fat cat from the topic start escaped last week and did not return yet -
ok, well, maybe not tiger tamer, how about tiger hunter? Razz
vid wrote:
I could say same about english. If you see some english word, you cannot be sure how it is read, if you haven't heard it before.
umm, NO, vid, sorry, but this is completely wrong. You are of course correct that English pronunciation is unpredictable, but YONG's problem is not related to PRONUNCIATION, but to meaning. Consider two common English family names, for example, SMITH, WHITE. Smith, means a person who works with metal, to make tools, while White, refers to a color. But, "vid", or for that matter "tom", what meanings do they have? My name has a meaning in Hebrew, of course, since my names are both of Jewish origin. But, in English, they have no meaning at all. YONG's task then, is to figure out what "shoorick" means. Yeah, "tiger trainer", that sounds about right.....
Smile
Post 30 Jan 2007, 03:33
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1605
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
ok, well, maybe not tiger tamer, how about tiger hunter? >
my wife saw him yesterday, but she already might not to return home with him (also, he returns always extremely dirty and need bath before let him go into the rooms) so, hope, his catty-girls will let him to live in warm place a while Smile
what "shoorick" means >
personally i do not know Smile
"vid" means "look", "sight": vid iz okna -> view from the window Wink
Post 30 Jan 2007, 05:39
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
"vid" means "look", "sight"
yes, and also it resembles word-base for "knowledge", and it's hard to google because it's commonly used as "video", and it's "div" backwards, etc. etc.
Post 30 Jan 2007, 10:44
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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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pelaillo
Surprised "vid" means "vista" Shocked


Last edited by pelaillo on 30 Jan 2007, 13:01; edited 1 time in total
Post 30 Jan 2007, 12:53
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
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Location: Ukraine
shoorick
windows vista -> okna vida Wink Very Happy
Post 30 Jan 2007, 12:59
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
pelaillo: Laughing Laughing Laughing in what language?
Post 30 Jan 2007, 13:00
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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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pelaillo
"vista" is a spanish word that means "look", "sight"
It used to be a nice word, now perhaps it's going to be polluted for years to come Sad
Post 30 Jan 2007, 13:06
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
grrrr, it ain't funny Evil or Very Mad
Wink
Post 30 Jan 2007, 13:37
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
tom tobias wrote:
... As vid can attest, I make lots of mistakes, though, in this particular case, sorry YONG, you are in error.
dictionary dot com wrote:
Oxford: Can 'cannot' also be written as two words 'can not'? ...
Sorry, YONG, in this case, I was definitely trying to be emphatic, ...

I wish I could accept your argument. Perhaps, some of us should try to quote tom's argument in any FORMAL ENGLISH LANGUAGE EXAMINATIONS to see whether or not the examiner/marker would accept it!

To emphasize its meaning, you could write "CANNOT".

tom tobias wrote:
YONG wrote:
However, also note that my native language is Cantonese,...
OOPS. Gosh, YONG, this is important, you need to explain to the FASM forum the HUGE differences among the various Sino-Tibetan languages. I guess you mean that your native language is what is called GuangDongHua, by PuTongHua native speakers, ... Can you elaborate? ...

Yes, my native language is Cantonese, i.e., "GuangDongHua" in Mandarin.

You've already explained that in detail.

tom tobias wrote:
YONG wrote:
the best Traditional Chinese translation that I could think of, based on Cantonese pronunciation,...
oops. Gosh, YONG, do you not recognize this problem: you are confusing TRANSLATION, with PRONUNCIATION. HanZi have NO pronunciation. You must first ascertain the MEANING of "shoorick", then assign three HanZi which correspond to that meaning (one for each syllable, in Western languages, of course, this word, shoorick, has only two syllables, but in Chinese languages, there will need to be a vowel on the end.....) What shoorick seeks is not "translation". He seeks ASSIGNMENT. He needs someone to assign the correct HanZi to his name. This process has nothing to do with "translation".
YONG wrote:
Hong Kong has developed a number of "generally-accepted" rules for English - (Traditional) Chinese translation.
Sigh, ....Sigh...NO, NO, no, Yong. This is not a problem of TRANSLATION, and certainly has NOTHING to do with ENGLISH!!! ...
YONG wrote:
Sometimes, we translate the MEANING of the source. Sometimes, we translate the PRONUNCIATION of the source.
NO. ABSOLUTELY NO. HanZi ONLY represent MEANING, not sound. ...


(SIGH)^100 ... (NO)^100 ...
tom, you are BLINDFOLDLY thinking that

SINCE HanZi, an ideogram, ONLY represents MEANING, not SOUND,

THEREFORE (wrong English grammar, I know, as I want to emphasize the cause-and-effect relationship, which should NOT be done in ANY FORMAL ENGLISH LANGUAGE EXAMINATIONS!) one should ONLY assign HanZi, with appropriate meaning, to the term (like "shoorick") but NOT translate its pronunciation.

SORRY, this is simply NOT true!

Let me, in addition to my previous example of "Cleverly Road", quote another REAL, GENUINE, FAMOUS, WELL-KNOWN, and after all, EASY-TO-UNDERSTAND example to illustrate my point. (Hopefully, tom would understand my meaning. Btw, I do understand why tom is so stubborn - he mentioned in another thread that he is just one step away from the doors of nursing homes. I truly respect him as he is a senior citizen.)

Manchester United, a famous, world-class football club in England, should be well known to most of us. Its Chinese name contains two characters: the first character is a direct translation of the PRONUNCIATION of "man" and the second is a direct translation of the MEANING of "united".

That's all. Smile

YONG
Post 30 Jan 2007, 13:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
pelaillo wrote:
Surprised "vid" means "vista" Shocked

@vid: Cool! You should register your name as trademark! You may make a lot of money! Very Happy

YONG
Post 30 Jan 2007, 14:04
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
YONG: If i would own trademark "vid", i would be rich even if it wouldn't mean "vista" in spanish Very Happy.

But MS would probably sue me that they were using it before, and provide few thousand dollars of proofs to justice Wink
Post 30 Jan 2007, 14:52
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
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shoorick
Post 30 Jan 2007, 15:29
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
nice
Quote:
VID makes more than 60% of national top-rating TV-production;

VID has more than 20 hours weekly on national channels;


how about www.pornstarvid.com?
Post 30 Jan 2007, 15:35
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
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shoorick
he-he Smile this need to be reported to moderator - have you anybody near to you Very Happy
Post 30 Jan 2007, 15:38
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Laughing

PS: i didn't place no url tags there, it's problem of forum software
Post 30 Jan 2007, 16:12
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