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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
wow... you guys actually learn CHINESE? For me even cyrillics/russian is too much (i am too lazy)
Post 24 Jan 2007, 14:48
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
Not me! Very Happy

But if I will find a good job in China or will be in love with pretty Chinese girl, then... who knows? Wink
Post 24 Jan 2007, 14:57
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
shoorick wrote:
ok... i did lesson 6. mr. YONG - is my handwriting readable for you?

Yes. Very good indeed! Very Happy

YONG
Post 25 Jan 2007, 12:15
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
In all fairness, YONG could read Shoorick's scribble with one eye closed. But, yes, Shoorick you have excellent penmanship. However, you err in using HanZi, instead of PinYin. Please reconsider your learning objectives. In my opinion, you will progress TWICE as fast, if you will use ONLY PinYin. Please do not forget, PinYin was invented by Chinese, for use with PuTongHua, and it is, in my humble opinion, the single most important contribution to the Chinese language in the past two thousand years. No Chinese agrees with me, of course. They will insist that it is impossible to understand the language absent those bloody HanZi. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have only to look at Korea and VietNam, two countries which FORMERLY insisted on using HanZi as well, but today, rely instead upon roman letter alphabets, similar to, though inferior by comparison with, PinYin, in my opinion. If you really want to learn Chinese, study PinYin, not characters. The good news is this: Compared with Polish, or English, or even Spanish, Chinese is utterly simple to learn. There is essentially NO GRAMMAR. ok. there's a little grammar. Almost nothing. no gender, no declensions, no conjugations, none of the nonsense that renders English completely incomprehensible with one exception after another.....Nope, Chinese is regular, straightforward, with no exceptions. The pronunciation is terribly difficult, no doubt, but, the good news is that no one will understand you, no matter how hard you try, therefore, one can simply relax, and listen instead of talking......Just remember this one famous aphorism, ok, it is not famous, because I coined it: There are plenty of blind people living in ZG (ZG = ZhongGuo= China). They cannot read the characters, but they understand PuTongHua, perfectly. So can you, if you will focus on PinYin instead of HanZi. You are studying a language, not art.
Smile
Post 25 Jan 2007, 22:06
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1606
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
1.thanks YONG - it's like a good mark for me for the lesson Smile
2.thanks tom for infomation. it is funny, but i was started exactly from art - i've been interesting with chinese characters, and then start to interesting what do they mean. currently i'm short of time, but unlike some years ago i have everything neccessary to learn chinese, including grammar textbooks. i'm oponent to romanisation all languages - it has some technical profit, but damages existing languages - as you can see - Japan refused from romanisation. also, you know, as one pinyin part (esp. without tone notification) can match to many different characters and have different meaning. finally, pronouncation with pinyin not possible without knowlege how it has to be pronounsed - direct reading in latin is improper (as i have not know it by heart yet i do transcript pinyin into russian Pallady table first, then try to pronounce)
Post 26 Jan 2007, 06:27
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
I disagree with tom on the following points:

tom tobias wrote:
However, you err in using HanZi, instead of PinYin. Please reconsider your learning objectives. In my opinion, you will progress TWICE as fast, if you will use ONLY PinYin. ... If you really want to learn Chinese, study PinYin, not characters.


This MAY be true since you only need to memorize the "pinyin" (pronounciation) but not the "HanZi" (characters). In doing so, however, you are not learning the language - you're simply "recording and playing back", in suitable situations, the sound of certain phrases/words!

I do understand that, for a westerner whose mother tongue is an alphabet-based language, it is extremely difficult to read/understand/memorize Chinese characters. However, if you really want to LEARN the language, this is the price you have to pay.

There is also a complication/problem - the existence of two sets of Chinese characters: Simplified Chinese (being used in mainland China) & Traditional Chinese (being used in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and probably most of the "China towns" overseas). Traditional Chinese, thanks to its "depiction" nature, is far more easy to LEARN & UNDERSTAND. Simplified Chinese is more like "shorthand", which is faster to WRITE but difficult to UNDERSTAND, due to the lacking of the "depiction" property.

So, if you really want to LEARN "HanZi", start with Traditional Chinese characters.

tom tobias wrote:
...Chinese is utterly simple to learn. There is essentially NO GRAMMAR. ok. there's a little grammar. Almost nothing. no gender, no declensions, no conjugations, none of the nonsense that renders English completely incomprehensible with one exception after another...


Completely WRONG.

There is a great deal of GRAMMER, if you're taking it seriously. (I don't want to go into the details.)

No gender? FOUR different characters are used to represent "he", "she", "it", and the pronoun when referring to an animal. (There is an additional one when referring to God.) However, all have the SAME "pinyin"! That's exactly why you need to LEARN the language!

tom tobias wrote:
You are studying a language, not art.


Due to its "depiction" nature, Traditional Chinese characters have an artistic property. In my opinion, Chinese is far more than "simply a language"! Smile

YONG
Post 26 Jan 2007, 14:03
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
YONG: which languages besides chinese and english you know. Have you seen languages with "cruel grammar", like German or Slavic languages? Where instead of expressing relation of words with another word (like "of"), you shape these words differently.

for example "mom" = "mama"
"mom's <single male>" = "mamin"
"mom's <multiple male>" = "mamini"
"mom's <female>" = "mamina"
"mom's <multiple female>" = "mamine"
"mom's <no gender> = "mamin"
(it's not this simple, for every of male/female/no gender there are 4 possibilities in fact, not just single)

or with verbs. "do" = "rob"
"i am doing" = "robim"
"you (single person) are doing" = "robis"
"he is doing" = "robi"
"we are doing" = "robime"
"you (mutliple persons) are doing" = "robite"
"they are doing" = "robia"
"i was doing" = "robil som"
"you (single person) was doing" = "robil si"
"he was doing" = "robil"
"we were doing" = "robili sme"
"you (mutliple persons) were doing" = "robili ste"
"they were doing" = "robili"

etc...

do you have similary complicated rules? I believe this is what tom was talking about, when he said "you only have to memorize words".
Post 26 Jan 2007, 15:00
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Tomasz Grysztar
Languages with "cruel grammar"? Smile Nice term.
Such languages are called inflected ones, AFAIK (and are the opposite ).

The Slavic languages are among the most inflected ones.
Post 26 Jan 2007, 15:09
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
shoorick and YONG make so many good points, wish I had more time to write a proper reply....
Who could have imagined the fertility of a simple plastic box containing cat food, rather than a dual core Intel cpu? Even better than MCD's plastic bags from last year....
shoorick wrote:
i'm oponent to romanisation all languages - it has some technical profit, but damages existing languages - as you can see - Japan refused from romanisation.
Of course this is nonsense. Romaji abound throughout Japan. Take the train, especially in late March, through the mountains, and watch the gorgeous plum trees bloom at tiny villages. Each railway stop has the name of the town written in Roman letters, in addition to Hiragana, and Kanji. Kanji = HanZi (two phoneme substitution) = original simplification of ancient HanZi. Modern HanZi in ZG itself represent a further simplification, so there are really THREE different versions of the same character, to learn, (BeiJing, TaiBei, Tokyo)if one wishes to be really diligent....Hiragana and Katakana represent the phonetic symbols invented by Japanese to represent the grammatical endings needed to employ Kanji, for Japanese language is completely unrelated to Sino-Tibetan family of languages, hence, the character alone is inadequate to represent ideas. Unlike Chinese, one CANNOT use ONLY ideograms to express thoughts in Japanese.
shoorick wrote:

as one pinyin part (esp. without tone notification) can match to many different characters and have different meaning.
This is dumb. Sorry shoorick, for you are my hero, one of the smartest folks on this forum, but, you are just wrong here.
Show, show two words, spelled identically, two completely unrelated meanings, yet, do we curl up in a fur ball, and howl upon encountering them in a sentence? No. We simply rely upon context....
Show me some good programming. (verb, to reveal, to demonstrate)
Please take me to the show tomorrow, I have some free time..... (noun, meaning theatre)
How about talk and talk:
Can you talk about your problem feeding cats? (verb, to speak)
Oh, tomorrow, if you are free can you give us a talk about the Aztec metropolis in the 15th century? (noun, a lecture)
And there are DOZENS more, in English. Do we go crying to mommie, because they are spelled the same way, without some kind of convoluted image to differentiate them???? No, of course not, we rely upon CONTEXT to differentiate the two words. What about PuTongHua???
EXACTLY the same situation.
Consider, for instance, my favorite, or maybe I should write ONE of my favorite aphorisms from KongZi (for they are all enchanting):

Shou4 ren2 yi1 yu2
zhi3 jiu4 yi1 shi2 zhi1 ji2,
Shou4 ren2 yi3 yu2
ze2 jie3 yi1 sheng1 zhi1 xu1.

Point is this: first yu means, in English, FISH, a noun.
Second yu, however means [to] fish i.e. a verb. The yu is pronounced exactly the same way, i.e. yu(2) in both phrases, but the HanZi is written differently, corresponding to the difference between English A FISH, and the verb: TO FISH. Now here's the real point, shoorick: There are LITERALLY millions of blind people in China, NONE of whom can "see" these two different HanZi, yet, ALL of them can understand this proverb, notwithstanding the IDENTICAL pronunciation. YONG, great chap though he is, is simply in error here:
confused, YONG wrote:
you are not learning the language - you're simply "recording and playing back", in suitable situations, the sound of certain phrases/words!
Does YONG suggest that blind people cannot learn a language? The LANGUAGE has NOTHING to do with the method of writing it.
NADA, NULL, ZERO.
WE could write any language in Sanskrit, if we so desired. We simply use symbols to describe a sound. Now, what YONG sought to suggest, incorrectly as it turns out, is that there is NO LANGUAGE absent a symbolic representation of the MEANING of the word, NOT THE SOUND of the word. This is of course incorrect. HanZi, IDEOGRAMS, are pictures which represent an IDEA. They are NOT phonetic symbols. It is absurd to think that LANGUAGE depends upon such visual images. No, rather, ART depends upon them, and good business communication, several thousand years ago, demanded the development of HanZi to permit trading in the era before fax machines and airplanes, but the LANGUAGE itself has NO CONNECTION to the method of writing it. The advantage of HanZi, is that one can communicate WITHOUT knowing the language, so long as one can look at the HanZi, there is no need to speak!!! If you seek to learn Chinese, i.e. PuTongHua, use PinYin. shoorick: why Roman letters are superior: Roman letters are in widespread use because of English, a terrible language. The fact that English is so dreadful, does not mean that the letters are also terrible. They are simple symbols. We could use Cyrillic symbols, or sanskrit, or arabic or any other PHONETIC symbols to express our own, or any other language, but the advantage of using Roman letters, is that people are already compelled to learn English, using the same symbols. By studying with PinYin, one COULD hope to learn Chinese, without devoting ten years studying HanZi. Of course, most foreigners are confused on this point, believing that HanZi and Chinese are one and the same. They are not. As you like, art, shoorick, please continue your studies of HanZi, AS ARTISTIC SYMBOLS, but do so without condemning PinYin, please. I am wholly ignorant of ANY disruptive influence which Roman letters have brought to any civilization, so shoorick, please enlighten me on this unfortunate circumstance to which you refer.
Smile


Last edited by tom tobias on 27 Jan 2007, 11:23; edited 1 time in total
Post 26 Jan 2007, 21:40
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
misunderstood the meaning of my remarks, tom tobias wrote:
YONG, great chap though he is, is simply in error here:
confused, YONG wrote:
you are not learning the language - you're simply "recording and playing back", in suitable situations, the sound of certain phrases/words!
Does YONG suggest that blind people cannot learn a language? The LANGUAGE has NOTHING to do with the method of writing it.

First, thanks for calling me "a great chap". I'm just a dummy. Smile

Secondly, I was talking about your ATTITUDE towards learning a language. It seems to me that you were suggesting that there is some sort of "shortcut" - by simply learning the pronounciation but not the characters - which, frankly speaking, is a completely bad attitude. This has nothing to do with blind people's ability to learn a language - they simply don't have the luxury to connect the sound/pronounciation with the characters. For a hieroglyph like Traditional Chinese, knowing/understanding the characters is of vital importance.

vid wrote:
Which languages besides chinese and english you know? Do you have similary complicated rules?

No more, if you don't count programming languages! Smile

Well, the pronounciation of a character may be different when used in different context, but no, the character itself would not be inflected. So I guess there is no "cruel grammar" in Chinese. Smile

YONG
Post 27 Jan 2007, 09:34
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1606
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
wish I had more time to write a proper reply.... > Smile me also - think, if we had then we should attach our replies as middle-size pdfs Very Happy

part 0. correction myself

i'm oponent to romanisation all languages > i ment full romanization, not doubling in roman letters. yes, doubling is very usefull to those, who does not know native letter pronounsation, and if you need to write down something in international form - typografic problem. but this is only technical solution for some narrow tasks. in my country you will also meet boards near highway, where sometimes cyrillic names are doubled in latin - it is for international travellers, not for us Wink

part I. latin and cyrillic

yes, there are roman equivalent for cyrillic, but who able after looking at latin equivalent say russian word properly? this is problem both to those who tries to write and to those who tries to read. for example my city name is Запорожье in russian, or Запоріжжя in ukrainian. you can meet: Zaporozhye, Zaporozh'e, Zaporozhie, Zaporozhje, Zaporizhzha, Zaporizhzhja, Zaporizhzhia... etc.
by transliteration rules Харьков represented as Khar'kov - personally, i do not know why letter 'X', pronounced as 'H' in, say, 'hummer', is presented as 'kh'. i heard it is because in some languages like spanish 'h' does not produce any sound, then "Har'kov" will sound like "Arkov". then appeared a question: is it transliteration of cyrillic with latin, or it is phonetic representation for specific language?! what about Russia: in russian Россия - transliterated to Rossija? what in english - rossidzha, in spanish - rossiha, in italian - ???
And it is not only for cyrillic. who will see first time pinyin "xing" and will guess it has to be pronounced "sin"? it is discussed here a lot!
well, how to write properly my small name Шурик? Shurik, Shoorik, Schurik, Szurik? ("ck" at the end i have add long ago to fit it into 8 symbols when i was crasy of binary system). I read before about case with russian sportsman Кукушкин. кукушка - the bird, who sings "koo-koo". well, his name was transliterated in USA into Kukushkin, and dictor loudly presented him by english rules - as "Kakashkin", while какашка in russian - little piece of shit.
next: lets take non-polite synonim of Maria: Манька. transliterated it will be Man'ka. do you know what "n'" means? how will you read it? it sounds exactly as spanish "ñ", so, it has to be pronounced just like Mañka. same for other "r'", "t'" etc.
also, it is wrong it is possible to represent well any english word with russian/cyrillic. there is no same sounds in russian for "th" and "w" - you can met "z", "s", "t" for the first and "v" or "u" for the next. thus, there two doctors Watsons here in different translations: more known "Vatson" (Ватсон) an less known "Uotson" (Уотсон), while they are same hero of Konan Doile book.

you can find some here about ukrainian/russian: http://www.winasm.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=503

it is hard infinit problem. to resume this i wish to say: transliteration usable for entering foreign words into another language, as technical solution and as help at the begin study foreign language, no more.

part II. learn chinese

well, it is hard to me to proove something or disproove anything here as i do not know chinese yet at all (some words/glyphs are not in count), thus i have no yet own opinion, and do not wish to operate with others opinions.
i'm member of some russian forums, dedicated to learn eastern languages - i'm not poster yet there but reader: it is a lot of questions and answers there so i'm not fully Robinson Cruso in this Wink
i have beginners course of chinese in 44 lessons - it uses simplified form of HanZi. i have a lot of other stuff - in russian and in english. its a kind of hobby - i have nobody around me to speek in chinese, and i mostly interesting with reading. so, i doing these lessons, and, when i study simplified character, i also look at traditional to notice how does it look - they are present also in these lessons. and finally - i just do not afraid HanZi Very Happy

_________________
UNICODE forever!
Post 27 Jan 2007, 12:27
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1606
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
i had wish but forgot to tell one case from my life:
In the school we had a bad boy in our class. He was not stupid, but teachers dislike to call him to answer as his behavior was bad. Very Happy
Once our teacher on English was ill, and she was replaced with another who did not know us. She asked this boy to read the text. First moment dead silence appeared as nobody could understand what he was reading, then explosion of laughter happend: we understood that he was reading words directly by characters ignoring character combinations like "th", "sh", and reading rules like "a"->"ei", "i"->"ai" etc.. like "t-his is a ("a", not "ei"!) ta-ble" Very Happy
Post 27 Jan 2007, 13:49
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
@shoorick: Cool! You know four languages: Ukrainian, Russian, English & Chinese. You're really a learner! Smile

YONG
Post 28 Jan 2007, 09:25
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
DustWolf
YONG wrote:
@shoorick: Cool! You know four languages: Ukrainian, Russian, English & Chinese. You're really a learner! Smile


Five! Don't forget FASM! Razz
Post 28 Jan 2007, 13:33
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MCD



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 604
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MCD
Someone talked about languages, but what's the purpose of this thread anyway? It seems like one of those "The last one who posts here wins a plastic bag"-thread. Confused

By the way, I was wondering whether there're good scientific papers written in chinese. Not seen any yet.
Post 28 Jan 2007, 13:55
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
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shoorick
the purpose of this topic: let's talk about nothing, friends, to know something new and interesting, instead of putting each other into dirt like in some other threads Wink
Post 29 Jan 2007, 06:22
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TmX



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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TmX
shoorick wrote:
like in some other threads Wink


Ah I got the idea
maybe "another" thread in this Heap section ? Wink
Post 29 Jan 2007, 06:37
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
MCD wrote:
I was wondering whether there're good scientific papers written in chinese. Not seen any yet.

http://www.akademiai.com/content/9p3m8862y8m8m4lt/
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/2003IF.pdf

Most Chinese medical journals have both English and HanZi summaries, with the main text in HanZi--which most Chinese can read, even though perhaps a billion people in China can not understand PuTongHua, the language which we call "Chinese". It is a bit like equating German with "European". One journal, devoted to Electroencephalography, had a French summary, but not English, two or three, generally instrument manufacturer oriented, had Japanese summaries, and half a dozen had Cyrillic summaries. None that I saw had German summaries, despite the apparent keen interest in China for German language studies (third, I would estimate, behind English and Japanese). "Nature" has a summary in a recent issue, addressing your question, but one needs to subscribe to read it on the internet, else, visit a library, and look it up, the old fashioned way, by index.
@MCD: Which criteria do we apply to determine "good"? Peer review? Quantity of citations? Presence of color illustrations?
MHajduk wrote:
But if I will find a good job in China or will be in love with pretty Chinese girl, then... who knows?
umm, if you know German, or English, FLUENTLY, you will travel, as a tourist, to ANY city in China, and get employment at any of a dozen universities in that city, within ten milliseconds. There you will meet more women than you could ever imagine.....? "pretty"? Umm, well, I hate to say the obvious, but if you will look at shoorick's cat, I suppose he/she would acknowledge that the food was just as tasty coming out of an AMD box, instead of a dual core Intel cpu container....
shoorick wrote:
the purpose of this topic: let's talk about nothing, friends, to know something new and interesting, instead of putting each other into dirt like in some other threads
AI yai yai. Sure not. First, some of us dirt makers, and scoundrels, NEED to play in the mud, and second, some of us unfriendly types enjoy OLD and uninteresting topics. Why does everything have to be so NEW? Finally, I must say, that shoorick's little tiger and I are both focused on the big picture: how can we convert MCD's plastic bags into something as important as holding our daily bread? Oh, wait, sorry, that phrase, "daily bread", evokes the Christian commentaries on the Buddhism thread, hmm, perhaps everything is intertwined, afterall....
Smile
Post 29 Jan 2007, 10:23
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6038
Location: Poland
MHajduk
shoorick, tom tobias & YONG:

I'm wondering about two things:
  • does exist phoneme "r" there in Chinese?
  • and (if it doesn't exist) how you transcribe nick "shoorick" in pinyin and HanZi? Wink
Regards.

Image
Post 29 Jan 2007, 10:42
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
shoorick wrote:
it is hard infinit problem. to resume this i wish to say: transliteration usable for entering foreign words into another language, as technical solution and as help at the begin study foreign language, no more.
I read with keen interest your detailed rebuttal of the notion that Roman letters could offer utility in studying Chinese. Dear friend, you are in error. PinYin is quite different from English in particular, and challenges your several assumptions, which focus on the central problem, HOW does one pronounce a word, given its Roman letter representation? You provided the clue, shoorick, with your illustration of "xing", which you then rewrote, as "sin", demonstrating that you NEED to learn PinYin, for it is NOT pronounced "sin", but rather, as "sheeng".
shoorick wrote:
who will see first time pinyin "xing" and will guess it has to be pronounced "sin"? it is discussed here a lot!
Though I do commit the sin of verbosity, from time to time, the point I wish to make is this: PinYin, a very modern ("new"), and very interesting phonetic transcription, was developed by Chinese (1) to assist non-native speakers (about 1 billion people in China, plus the rest of the world) learn how to pronounce the official language of China, PuTongHua, (2) to provide a modern PHONETIC transcription of Chinese words, for YONG, and many, many, (almost all) Chinese folks do not understand, that HanZi are IDEOGRAMS, which lack ANY phonetic trait. They are unpronounceable. They have NO sound associated, or more precisely, they have an INFINITE quantity of sounds associated with them, which explains how they could be employed in both VietNamese and Japanese, despite the linguistic incoherence of those languages with Chinese. The best illustration of the MISUSE of HanZi as purported phonetic symbols, is with black chocolate: Hei Qiao Ke Li in PuTongHua. The HanZi, Hei, meaning black, is properly written, however, the Qiao, Ke, and Li characters have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to milk, sweet, cocoa bean: someone, perhaps long ago, erred, by misusing these HanZi as phonetic symbols, and we are now stuck with it. I will be surprised if YONG agrees with me on this fundamental point.....(I have not yet met any Chinese who were able to grasp this notion that HanZi possess NO phonetic equivalent!!! They are pictures, NOT sound equivalents.) PinYin is the answer. Devote one day to studying PinYin, and it will then be possible to pronounce individual words, correctly. PinYin is not like English: with the gh sound in enough, pronounced as f in fish. The pronunciation of PuTongHua, and its romanization equivalent are CONSTANT in PinYin.
Smile
Post 29 Jan 2007, 11:08
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