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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
tantrikwizard, you are way too emotionally angry over this. I do not rescind the fact that I think Buddhism is a path to insanity. Besides, you certainly are not one to claim to be so scholarly since you cite many inaccuracies (e.g., St. Paul did indeed quote much of Jesus' words, lived many years promoting Christianity, and died a martyr), and he (and the Apostles) saw/performed many miracles in Jesus' name (see Acts). This guy is clearly extraordinary, and he was full of love for God and people. He definitely is no nut. If you're ideas are so great, I challenge you to compare them to St. Paul's ideas in his writings. Let's see who is more correct, you or him. (Go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore God). BTW, humans are not God's mistake. He created the world, and it was good. But some decided that wasn't for them, and they defected. Thanks to that, we all have to suffer. Don't blame me, blame them. Don't follow their path (unless you really, really want to, which I highly doubt ... you do have free will, ya know).

What makes Buddhism so great? What does it accomplish? Nothing. Go ahead and say, [yuck!] "There is no God. I can save myself. There is no hell. 2 billion people are all phony idiots. They are crazy, and I'm so great. I made myself great. No one can harm me." [ugh] See where that gets you. Bad things DO happen, but more so if you deny the Christ (FYI, He doesn't do these bad things! See Job.). I can indeed verify this from my own experience. I have sinned in my own life many times and in many ways. Trust me, bad deeds lead to no good, temporary or permanent. I didn't condemn you or anyone. Nor does Jesus. But, some things are objectively bad. Why deny that a rose is a rose? It is what it is.

Strange that you decry Christianity so strongly and yet defend what you claim to not even believe. I would call that a misplaced priority and a waste of time on your part. I am not trying to "fix" anyone, only correct certain ideas which I know to be wrong. (Or should I let the uninformed crash their personal OSes with bugs that can be fatal?)

P.S. The masses love Windows and Linux. I guess both of those are crap too since everybody loves 'em. The masses also seem to love MASM and FASM. Rosasm is the one that isn't very popular, so maybe that's the one we should use (on ReactOS, perhaps?). Go ahead, switch to that, I won't mind! Smile

tom tobias, I have plenty of Proverbs to read without bothering reading more about Confucius. Virtue and love, that's what the Bible is concerned with. See if you can find it, it's right there in front of you!
Post 20 Jan 2007, 22:41
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
rugxulo, criticizing tantrikwizard, wrote:
Strange that you decry Christianity so strongly and yet defend what you claim to not even believe. I would call that a misplaced priority and a waste of time on your part.
I may be in error on this point, but as I understand it, tantrikwizard does not defend the religious aspect of buddhism, simply the philosophical thrust, in conformance with Siddhartha's writings. In any event, whether or not he accurately or adequately defends Buddhism, he did not introduce, as you have done, dear friend, something irrelevant, i.e. Christianity. The judaic-messianic model of religion (underpinning the original lister's concept of religion) served as counterpart to commence the thread: To what extent is Buddhism a religion, i.e. a "spiritual" experience, with promises of heaven after death, and gods and other paraphernalia associated with all religions, monks, nuns, special clothes, incense, candles, temples, parades, etc? Your submission, rugxulo, honest and thoughtful though it certainly was, tended to ignore the subsequent submissions aimed at exploring our FASM forum-wide ignorance of Buddhism. Your earnestness, much appreciated, and your sincerity, certainly worthy of emulation, are simply misplaced on this thread devoted to exploring the nooks and crannies of Gautama's legacy. One way to integrate your goals of introducing Paul (I prefer his proper Jewish name, Saul) and Aquinas, would be to juxtapose their thinking on truth, science, knowledge, and civilization with the thinking of Buddha. That was the gist of tantrikwizard's rejoinder, imploring you to offer some data, or some argument exposing a weakness in the writings of Siddhartha---possibly a weakness which had been addressed by the folks like Saul, a jewish guy who arrived on the scene about half a millenium after Buddha, and was a true believer in the jewish messianic nonsense (Saul's original hostility to Jesus, including persecution and murder of Christian believers, was based on the common perception in the "civilized", i.e. jewish world, that Jesus was yet another false pretender, claiming, yet again, to be the long sought after messiah...) Buddhism, to the best of my understanding, claimed five hundred years earlier, in somewhat similar fashion, that Siddhartha was a messianic figure, of sorts. So, there's an entry point for you, rugxulo, contrast the messianic aspects of buddhism, the religion, as practiced today, by HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, {since you evidently appreciate large numbers of people professing a belief in order for the belief to gain credibility}(as opposed to the writings of gautama, himself, which invariably invoke the reply of uncertainty about heaven, afterlife, etc) with the writings of Saul, the persecutor, who, like all other jews, had been waiting for one thousand years for the arrival of the promised messiah, and then, Paul, the follower of Jesus. Did Paul achieve enlightenment like Siddhartha, by meditation, and reflection, or, since Paul lived in Greece, did he follow Aristotle's by then several hundred year old writings, urging people to go out and explore nature? One hopes that it will not be necessary to invoke ghosts and gremlins and angels to explain Saul's change of heart, from killer, to defender of the delusion that Jesus was some kind of god.
Smile
Post 20 Jan 2007, 23:32
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
It is just frankly impossible to separate Buddhism from its religious aspects as it is to do so for Judaism, etc. Why even discuss Buddhism (a religion) if you don't want discussions of religions in general? Anyways, it is not the external acts that count (much), but the interior composition of the person. Saul/Paul was not perfect but became much less imperfect after his conversion. Certainly you can't call St. Paul's conversion heat stroke because many have suffered and still refused to believe. Is this improvement of his objectively bad?

Certainly Christian writings (esp. the Bible) are every bit as enlightening as anything in Buddhism, IMO. But, I doubt some people here would even consider that idea as truth. That's okay, nobody's perfect (I definitely am not, please don't think I'm implying that).

It's just more honest, IMO, for someone to say, "Well, it was a long time ago, we don't know what really happened," and yet no one here is saying that. They are saying, "a is wrong, but b is right." Sadly, people get too emotional over the subject, feeling like they are being attacked when that is not the case.

I've presented a viewpoint in only a few posts, and several have already made up their mind way before then. That's your call, but I refuse to believe that you're intentionally believing wrongly. I thought a little perspective was in order. We're not too different, you guys and me. Don't have a cow, it's only a silly messageboard.

P.S. To be honest (although I've already said so), I really have not studied Buddhism in depth, but I do know a drop of Christianity. I know enough to NOT believe or even listen to Buddhism, but you're free to read/study/love it all you want. Just keep in mind that if you change your mind later, it's okay. You're not the first (or last) to be fooled. Sad
Post 21 Jan 2007, 01:19
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
The thing I hate about most religions is how they have this "our view is the only view that's right". Now that'd be fine if religious idiots would just shut up and keep to themselves, but hell no - they have to go and preach and try to convert people.

Thank god (hah, the irony!) that Denmark is a pretty secularized country without too many religious nuts; our main plague are the jehova's witnesses, and they tend to bugger off and not visit you again if you make the wormsign and tell them you already have a lord.

Religion is superfluous, it's silly, and it's for the weak and feeble people. "But look how much good has come from christianity!" - yeah, like the witch hunts, slaughtering of the Aztecs, raping of catholic choir boys, et-fucking-cetera. Way to go.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 01:29
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
tom tobias wrote:

It will always exist, as long as humans proclaim some kind of special ability to interact with non-existant, supernatural life forms--god--which is what any pope is supposed to be able to do.


To play devils advocate, well maybe since I'm defending rugxulo view of things, "Gods" advocate Wink .... can we really be so sure that humans can't communicate with "something" that we do not understand in our current evolutionary phase. What "something" means, I really don't know, but maybe one day humans will be able to explain what the "something" I mention means/is?


That sense of deja-vou (I'm sure several of you know what I mean) just happens so often to me and no where have I found an explanation of what it is, something wrong with my brain or can I really see the future Wink I've read the theories like a glitch in the human memory, and totally stupid things like reincarnation, i.e you're living a life you've already lived but nothing that really explains what I experience that actually satisfies me. So I guess the best explanation is that I'm suffering some form of insanity not to dissimilar to the insanity rugxulo exhibits Smile


f0dder wrote:

The thing I hate about most religions is how they have this "our view is the only view that's right". Now that'd be fine if religious idiots would just shut up and keep to themselves, but hell no - they have to go and preach and try to convert people.


Amen to that comment!
Post 21 Jan 2007, 01:59
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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
rugxulo wrote:
tantrikwizard, you are way too emotionally angry over this. I do not rescind the fact that I think Buddhism is a path to insanity.


You do not have to resend your statements, but the error is in making such statements without backing them up with evidence. In the world of facts, opinions matter nothing. You clearly dont understand the difference between opinions and facts. Your opinions mean absolutely nothing unless you have a PHD on the subject. You are certainly entitled to any goofy, off the wall, irrelevant and uneducated opinions, but not many are going to take you serious.

rugxulo wrote:
If you're ideas are so great, I challenge you to compare them to St. Paul's ideas in his writings.


Saul was a kookoo with many delusional beliefs in an imaginary god and imaginary messiah. Clearly you dont understand the difference between subjective thinking and imaginary beliefs. This is one of the side-effects of the damage caused by modern jesus cults which renders the fanatics completely incapable of rational thinking and therefore irrelevant in any debate. The difference between modern intellectuals and kookoo christians like Saul is the ability to use logic and common sense, not faith. Saul was a very simple man with no logic. The problem with all religion is the requirement to have faith in supernatural. It is not based on evidence, observation or fact, just someone's belief. In an age of science, where evidence and facts form intelligence, belief and faith really have no place. You cannot expect people to take you seriously when you just throw around a bunch of opinions (like Saul). Back in the bronze age it may have worked, but not today.


rugxulo wrote:
Let's see who is more correct, you or him. (Go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore God).


I would be more correct because I would use logic based on evidence, not fantasy based on faith. Also, I do not ignore god, it seems god ignores everyone else. The fact is there is zero creditable evidence for any god. Zero evidence, zip, zilch, nada. What exactly is it that we're supposed to pay attention to? I've been waiting for this jehova prick to show up for a long time, i have a bone to pick with him, alas he keeps hiding, I think he is scared, maybe hiding under jesus' robe. Do tell me when he shows up, he's got a lot of explaining to do and needs to ask for my forgiveness.

rugxulo wrote:
Thanks to that, we all have to suffer. Don't blame me, blame them. Don't follow their path (unless you really, really want to, which I highly doubt ... you do have free will, ya know)..


Where do you people come up with this nonsense? Wait I know...the porno bible. The bible is no authority on anything. The only thing the bible proves is that bronze age men had fantastic imaginations and didn't know a thing about science, logic or common sense. The bible should be classified as hard core pornography. Full of incest, rape, bestiality, sodomy, etc.

rugxulo wrote:
What makes Buddhism so great? What does it accomplish? Nothing.


Care to backup your opinions with some evidence? You have said several times that its good for nothing but have failed to backup your opinions, meaning your opinions are just your uneducated opinions and therefore completely irrelevant. I have told you one thing Buddhism is good for, it is a good cure for christianity.

rugxulo wrote:
I am not trying to "fix" anyone, only correct certain ideas which I know to be wrong.


So back it up with evidence already. Your uneducated opinions really dont matter, present some evidence to substantiate your claims or no one is going to take you seriously. Your beliefs are your beliefs and youre certainly entitled to any form of delusion your tiny mind can conjure, but it doesn't make them real. Your belief in unicorns do not make unicorns real. You're certainly entitled to believe in unicorns, but no one is going to take you serious unless you present some evidence to substantiate it. We are in the age of science, not fantasy. You must present creditable evidence to backup your claims in todays age or else you're irrelevant.

The fact is there is zero evidence for any god. Most religious fanatics say nature is proof of god. This is a very weak argument. To say nature is proof of god is to say rainbows are proof of leprechauns. There's no leprechauns and there's no god. One can easily say a band of flying unicorns sprinkled pixie dust on magic mushrooms to create the cosmos with equal logical consistency as saying god created it. Intellectuals have made the argument for god a thing of the past century. There are not even creditable arguments for god which have not been disproven. Today is an age of science with evidence and facts, not fantasy and faith. If you expect to be taken seriously by intellectuals you must back up your claims with evidence or have a PHD in the subject matter, else youre just a religious fanatic with zealous irrelevant opinions.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:04
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Look, you either need Jesus/God or you don't. Yes or no. It's not something that's relative. Medicine either heals or it doesn't. Food either nourishes or it doesn't. Code either works or it doesn't. A blind man doesn't deny that something outside of himself exists, does he? No, because he probably knows better. But, in this case you have to be shown or told the truth (or both) or you'll never learn.

f0dder, who exactly is NOT weak and feeble? All of us were small children at one point. Should we scorn all babies because they can't feed themselves? No. And none of us is strong at everything. Try having some compassion on those who are so-called "weaker" than yourself.

If you ever read up on any 12 step program (e.g., AA), you'll see that they believe in a higher power. Not because they want to out of pride or vanity, but because they have to. Else they just rot in their own bad habits.

EDIT: Every Catholic priest has to go to school for approximately 8 years minimum just to become a priest. And deacons have to go either 3 or 4 (depending on diocese, e.g. 4 in mine). And there's at least one priest I've seen on tv who's been in school more than I've been alive! They are not all rubes huddling around a fire amazed at the impossible. They are practical, reasonable, intelligent. The pope has been a priest for 50 years. Seriously, can you ignore that completely?? Read the links I gave, if you can tolerate 'em (which I highly doubt now, but oh well).


Last edited by rugxulo on 21 Jan 2007, 02:24; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:14
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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
MichaelH wrote:
That sense of deja-vou (I'm sure several of you know what I mean) just happens so often to me and no where have I found an explanation of what it is, something wrong with my brain or can I really see the future Wink I've read the theories like a glitch in the human memory, and totally stupid things like reincarnation, i.e you're living a life you've already lived but nothing that really explains what I experience that actually satisfies me. So I guess the best explanation is that I'm suffering some form of insanity not to dissimilar to the insanity rugxulo exhibits Smile


From Elizabeth Baker phd psychology, oxford, deja-vu is experienced when one hemisphere of the brain registers slightly slower than the other. Its a sort of mental echo and can be reproduced in brain surgery.

George Carlin asks "Have you ever had vuja-de? Thats the feeling you get that none of this has ever happened before, then its gone"
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:16
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
I suggest we add to the "wonderful" Acts of Christianity:
- the genocide of the native indian population of North America
- the genocide of the Australian natives
- the burning of Giordano Bruno
- persecutions of Galileo
- Inquisition
- countless wars inside Europe
- crusades against Muslims
- forced conversion of natives and elimination of their culture in favour of "better" Christian myths
- ethnic cleansing
- the wonders of Auschwitz
- editing the Bible to suit the needs of manipulation of local power lords (elimination of Gnostic and other gospels via political councils)
-overpopulating of the planet by insisting to be agains abortion and contraceptives
- promotion of commerce and capitalism since Jesus was mad against this
- ah...and the two nuclear bombs over Japan


I wonder why US is not turning the other chick towards Bin Laden after 9/11 after all that would have been a christian act to do Razz

Ah and the Bible is a nice book, something a child should read: nice stories of rape, murders, wars, killings, massacres, prostitution, nice sex etc etc... and once in a while the edited and twisted assumed words of Jesus ... all in the name of God ...

And then there is this nice "loving" idea: if you do not obey and do what we want you to do then you will be punished Very Happy...

hihihihihi... funny to say at least...


Last edited by bogdanontanu on 21 Jan 2007, 02:38; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:34
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Quote:
I've been waiting for this jehova prick to show up for a long time, i have a bone to pick with him, alas he keeps hiding, I think he is scared, maybe hiding under jesus' robe. Do tell me when he shows up, he's got a lot of explaining to do and needs to ask for my forgiveness.


Everybody hurts sometimes. (REM -- new Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame inductee).

Seriously, Job, Jeremiah, Isaiah, St. Paul, actually all of the 11 Apostles (plus Matthias), Mary, and especially Jesus (the so-called Suffering Servant foretold in Isaiah) all had many hardships to overcome. God does not necessarily take away every ache and pain we have, but some good can always come out of it. And miracles do happen, can you deny them too? "Well, it never happened to me." Then okay, that's all you can honestly say. Don't pretend to have seen for sure every so-called miracle and debunked 'em. Seriously, there only so much you can deny without sounding hysterical. I understand you don't believe it, but guess what? That's your view. You have reasons (good or bad) for believing or not believing something. That's okay. Nobody reasonable expects you to drop everything and believe immediately (although that happens sometimes too, see Acts of the Apostles in the Bible). FYI, I did not come to believe overnight.


Last edited by rugxulo on 21 Jan 2007, 02:45; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:34
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

If you ever read up on any 12 step program (e.g., AA), you'll see that they believe in a higher power. Not because they want to out of pride or vanity, but because they have to. Else they just rot in their own bad habits.



Studies have shown that AA have lower success rate of a long term cure of alcoholism than people who cure themselves without the christian nonsense AA tries to inflict on alcoholics. I agree with tantrikwizard, if you're going to produce "evidence", make sure it's not total bias BULLSHIT!!!!!



tantrikwizard, thanks for your view about deja-vou but still this doesn't seem to be what I experience. When it occurs, I usually end up trying to think my way out of it by estimating the odds of what just occurred. Usually the odds are so huge my brain can't comprehend it logically, so I look for rational factors to explain how I managed too state something completely out of the blue that actually occurs 30 seconds, 1 hour, 1 day later (or some similar event) and often I never manage to come up with anything other than, I'm insane. Thanks for trying to help me find my way out of my insanity though!.


Last edited by MichaelH on 21 Jan 2007, 02:43; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:41
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
bogdanontanu wrote:
I suggest we add to the "wonderful" Acts of Christianity:

And then this nice "loving" idea: if you do not obey and do what we want you to do then you will be punished Very Happy...

hihihihihi... funny to say at least...


In Christianity, people are not restrained in their freedom, only guided away from objective evil. That leaves plenty of leeway in choices. "Some people are friends in name only" (Sirach). Do you directly accuse Jesus of doing these acts? What about me? You know full well I didn't attack or forcefully convert anybody because I'm too young. Also, I've never honestly heard anything bad said about Jesus. Read the Gospels, He is a nice guy. Even Islam can't knock him. And Judaism has yet to proclaim a Messiah. If it ain't Jesus, who the heck is it then?? Certainly, this Jesus fellow has gotten way more publicity and has been described as quite a historical figure.

You dislike evil acts? So do I. That does not mean Jesus isn't God. Remember, humans are all frail, and they do what they want (free will). We can all lie. I still sin as much as anyone probably. I'm no better than anyone. It's not a competition.

But, it's just ridiculous to bring up stuff from the past as if it was a worldwide conspiracy by Christians to hurt others. That's just unfair. You are blaming a lot of innocent people. Certainly, if the Bible says something is bad and some Christian does it anyways, it is not the Bible's fault. It is not God's fault. It is that person and that person alone. "You have no one to blame but yourself." (Exodus)

EDIT:
MichaelH wrote:
Studies have shown ...


Amazing, someone disagrees with someone else. Alert the media! Anybody can deny anything or argue any view. That's not news. What is important is that a lot of people believe in it and continue to believe in it whether you do or not. Nobody is born believing in anything. But, through rational means (that's all we tangibly have, really), you can become convinced of something more than just the superficial.

"90% of all statistics are made up."
Post 21 Jan 2007, 02:43
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
http://www.aerosmith.com/news.html

Quote:

11.29.04 - Tyler's Thanksgiving

While some of us were sitting on the couch watching football, playing with young cousins, and thinking about our third slice of pie, Steven was celebrating his Thanksgiving with some new friends. Check out the story below...

Steven Tyler served up turkey and a helping of advice on Thanksgiving at a substance abuse treatment center for women. Tyler, front man for the band Aerosmith, shared his own struggles with drugs and alcohol with the two dozen residents of Women's Hope. "If I can just tell them how good it is for me now, and that it is possible … then I've done my job," said Tyler, who lives in the Boston area. The singer, who has been clean for nearly 20 years, describes himself as "a living example" that addictions can be conquered. "Letting go and letting God really does work," Tyler told the women. His words inspired Shannon Holland, who's enrolled in the 28-day residential program. "It was a surprise to all of us," Holland said of Tyler's visit, "and I think all of us are really excited that somebody cares so much enough to stop by the house and do this for us."


P.S. And these guys have been through a lot SINCE then (and a lot before, too) but are still alive and kickin' (no coincidence). Their latest studio album was "Honkin' on Bobo", and the final track on that was "Jesus is on the Main Line".

Also, Joe Perry put out a solo album about two years ago too.

Quote:

What about Joe Perry's lyrical inspiration for these tunes? "Well, most of the songs are love songs," he confesses. "Some of them are fast and some of them are slow, that's about it. You sing what you know."


Interesting that some of his song titles are "Mercy" and "Pray for Me" as well as "Ten Years" (ode to his wife).

Gee, sounds evil to me too (not). Razz
Post 21 Jan 2007, 03:41
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
rugxulo wrote:

In Christianity, people are not restrained in their freedom,


Of course not... they are only killed, burned, hanged, tortured, dropped bombs at or even glazed with discontent...

rugxulo wrote:

only guided away from objective evil.


And how do you define this "objective evil" ?
- By what Christians say?
- by some paper written by humans and then named LAWS?
- by some old book edited to suit power lords?
- by what a group decides against a minority?

What is legal or moral for one group or culture might be illegal and non moral for another group or culture...

Who decides? The ones that have more bombs, more army and more airplanes? the ones that have "God on their side..." ?

And what about the ways to "apply this guidance" Very Happy

rugxulo wrote:

That leaves plenty of leeway in choices.


Yeah, like the choice in betwwen:
- catholic Christians God
- orthodox Christians God
- protestant Christians God
- jehova's Christians God
- adventists Christians God

As we can clearly see: plenty of "choices" of course...

rugxulo wrote:

"Some people are friends in name only" (Sirach).


Again quoting form other people's knowledge?

Well if they are friends in name only maybe you should publicly delimit yourself from them and clearly state that"

-Every one that participates into a war no matter the reason is no longer respecting Jesus?
-That anyone that supports capitalism and commerce is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?
-That anybody that participates into a form of organized religion is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?
-That anybody that allows a pope, or a cleric as an intermediate in between him and God is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?

rugxulo wrote:

Do you directly accuse Jesus of doing these acts?


Oh, NO. Where did you get that idea from?
How could I since Jesus is dead from 2000+ years? he did not participat in any war AFAIK. When asked to participate against Romans... he declined honorably.

But I am accusing anybody that claims to be a Christian group member...
Since they all have to assume the crimes of their group or exit the group and delimit them self from such a group of criminals

As far as I know Jesus never said he is a Christians. It is only Christians that claim Jesus as a personal supporter and justification for their crimes...

rugxulo wrote:

What about me?


What about you?

rugxulo wrote:

You know full well I didn't attack or forcefully convert anybody because I'm too young.


Hmm, I do not know that for sure... I never checked you.
In good will, I will assume you are innocent until proven guilty.

However I do detect an "atempt" to convert people in here. And I do suspect you consider your self a Christian but do not want to assume the acts of the group.

rugxulo wrote:

Also, I've never honestly heard anything bad said about Jesus.


Well, he did made some mistakes,like all humans do ...

But yes by the sound of his sayings (the ones that are not twisted) he does sound like a good man possibly with knowledge of GOD... but then again the exact same thing is valid about Buddha and other enlightened people...

rugxulo wrote:

Read the Gospels,


I did, Very Happy

rugxulo wrote:

He is a nice guy.


Yeah. But dead...and we are not talking about him are we?

rugxulo wrote:

Even Islam can't knock him.


I wanted to be informed and I have read the Quaram also...
In short ... yes they can...

For them Jesus was just another prophet that was superseded by Mohamed. Because the teachings relevated by God to Jesus were not complete or not very well understood ---> then GOD had to rewrite them in a better way in Quaram Very Happy

From their point of view any Muslim is better than a Christian that is better than a non believer.

rugxulo wrote:

And Judaism has yet to proclaim a Messiah. If it ain't Jesus, who the heck is it then??


Honestly who cares for such childish beliefs?... And I do mean all of them!

Now I will like to explain to you that I do not advocate for any organized religion whatsoever. But I have studied a few in order to know what they talk about...

rugxulo wrote:

Certainly, this Jesus fellow has gotten way more publicity and has been described as quite a historical figure.


Go figure: "a media Superstar" Razz

It might be news to you but in Islam the prophet Mohamed has much more publicity and is quite a historical figure and in buddism Buddha has more publicity and is quite a historical figure also Very Happy


rugxulo wrote:

You dislike evil acts? So do I.


Good.

To prove that will you state that you dislike the invasion of Iraq, threats on Iran and will you ask forgiveness to North American natives and return their land and resources. Will you also ask forgiveness to Japan for nuking it?

rugxulo wrote:

That does not mean Jesus isn't God.


What is the logical connection in between?

Disliking evil acts and violence has no relevance to this issue of Jesus being God Razz

It is obvious that Jesus is NOT God...

How could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, unlimited being or consciousness... be limited to a single human?

That claim is hilarious... to say at least.
It shows great dis consideration for God.

rugxulo wrote:

Remember, humans are all frail, and they do what they want (free will).


Please do not atempt to tell me what to do...
Conosci tuo anima primo

I prefer to use my neurons for intelligence and not for memory...

rugxulo wrote:

We can all lie.


We can... but why should we?

rugxulo wrote:

I still sin as much as anyone probably. I'm no better than anyone. It's not a competition.


If you say so...
Being extra humble is also a form of "pride" Wink

Did I say it is a competition? What is the purpose of those words?

rugxulo wrote:

But, it's just ridiculous to bring up stuff from the past as if it was a worldwide conspiracy by Christians to hurt others.


And Why is that?
... and did i say anything about any "conspiration" ? Why do you bring such conspiracy non-sense to the table?

You do bring up a book written thousands of years ago and that suffered many editing in the past.

You do bring up past "historical" events and people...

You also bring up other dead "saints" that have lived in the past in a different contexts and have said some things a long time ago...

You offer links toward stories of their presumed acts in the past...

It is just FAIR to make a complete picture in TIME of the atrocities committed in the name of such Christians...

rugxulo wrote:

That's just unfair.


It is clearly fair.

rugxulo wrote:

You are blaming a lot of innocent people.


No. I am only blaming the ones that can not stand on their own feet in face of God or Existence and feel the need of "protection" from a group of criminals named Cristians that have hijacked a myth about a human named Jesus for their own personal use.

If you do not declare yourself as belonging to any group then you only have to answer for your own actions.

rugxulo wrote:

Certainly, if the Bible says something is bad and some Christian does it anyways, it is not the Bible's fault.


Yes usually it can not be the fault of an object for somebody's actions.

But if it presents wars and crimes in a way that suggests that some group can do it under the "protection" of God against non other humans... they I would say it is a book of bad reputation at least...

If the book is used as an "excuse" for crimes... well what shall we do then?
What If the book instigates to such actions?

rugxulo wrote:

It is not God's fault.


Well, if God exists Razz Then clearly He is beyond good or evil...

Everything is his fault ... or... if you prefer nothing is his fault...
If Omniscient then he must have agreed to all evil in the first place...

rugxulo wrote:

It is that person and that person alone.


Unless they belong to a "group" ...

rugxulo wrote:

"You have no one to blame but yourself." (Exodus)


Well... that is what Budism say Razz

But I ask: is this your own experience or a quote from some book? Is it "memory" or intelligence?

What about instigation, what about misdirection, what about manipulation?
What about self illusions?

What about needs for survival? If we need OIL... Can we kill then?

Can we force others to do something... "for their own good" ?

Can we at lest guide them without them honestly asking for this "guidance" ?

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."
Post 21 Jan 2007, 04:58
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
bogdanontanu wrote:

What is legal or moral for one group or culture might be illegal and non moral for another group or culture...

Who decides?

rugxulo wrote:

"Some people are friends in name only" (Sirach).


Again quoting form other people's knowledge?

Well if they are friends in name only maybe you should publicly delimit yourself from them and clearly state that"


I am saying that not everyone is sincere, and Christians are not inherently "better" than anyone. You can be Christian and still be wrong about your beliefs.

bogdanontanu wrote:

-Every one that participates into a war no matter the reason is no longer respecting Jesus?
-That anyone that supports capitalism and commerce is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?
-That anybody that participates into a form of organized religion is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?
-That anybody that allows a pope, or a cleric as an intermediate in between him and God is no longer respecting the words of Jesus?


Not for me to judge. Definitely beyond my ability.

Quote:

How could I since Jesus is dead from 2000+ years? he did not participat in any war AFAIK. When asked to participate against Romans... he declined honorably.


He is not dead. Many have seen him after the resurrection. I have not, but I suspect neither have you. Interesting that we have different views then.

Quote:

But I am accusing anybody that claims to be a Christian group member...
Since they all have to assume the crimes of their group or exit the group and delimit them self from such a group of criminals


No. You cannot blame a group for the actions of its members. How can I blame you for your grandfather's misdeeds? That would be insane. To be a Christian, all you have to do is attempt to truly follow Christ. That's all. It doesn't matter how well or badly you fare, it only matters that you try. That is the definition.

bogdanontanu wrote:

As far as I know Jesus never said he is a Christians. It is only Christians that claim Jesus as a personal supporter and justification for their crimes...


"Christ" is the Greek word for "Messiah" (Hebrew). He claimed to be the Messiah and God and man.

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

You know full well I didn't attack or forcefully convert anybody because I'm too young.


Hmm, I do not know that for sure... I never checked you.
In good will, I will assume you are innocent until proven guilty.


I mean WW2, killing Native Americans, Crusades, etc. Stuff that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago. Surely you can't blame me for that stuff!

bogdanontanu wrote:

However I do detect an "atempt" to convert people in here. And I do suspect you consider your self a Christian but do not want to assume the acts of the group.


I am a Christian, but I cannot take the blame for anybody else. I am only responsible for my own sins. I am not trying to convert anyone, but seriously, I just have the urge to try to set the record straight. Christianity is not evil. God does exist. Buddhism is not the way.

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

Also, I've never honestly heard anything bad said about Jesus.


Well, he did made some mistakes,like all humans do ...


Eh? No sense in arguing with you about this (or any of this, really). You don't believe, and I can't change your mind. But, for the record, God does not make mistakes.

bogdanontanu wrote:

But yes by the sound of his sayings (the ones that are not twisted) he does sound like a good man possibly with knowledge of GOD... but then again the exact same thing is valid about Buddha and other enlightened people...


I did not say Gautama was evil or that anyone is intentionally being a bastard. All I'm saying is that I firmly believe that it does not accomplish anything and can get in the way of real, concrete truth.

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

He is a nice guy.


Yeah. But dead...and we are not talking about him are we?


Okay, I guess you know that the Gospels proclaim that he rose from the dead. You don't have to believe that (and obviously don't), but strictly speaking, he is alive.

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

Even Islam can't knock him.


I wanted to be informed and I have read the Quaram also...
In short ... yes they can...

For them Jesus was just another prophet that was superseded by Mohamed. Because the teachings relevated by God to Jesus were not complete or not very well understood ---> then GOD had to rewrite them in a better way in Quaram Very Happy

From their point of view any Muslim is better than a Christian that is better than a non believer.


There is a whole section of the Koran dedicated to Jesus. Even his mother is revered. Yes, they don't acknowledge that He is God (don't ask me why, too many religions, I'll agree to that!). But, I am under the impression that they do not slander, insult, or mock Him as that is against their religion (even if they believe somewhat differently).

bogdanontanu wrote:

It might be news to you but in Islam the prophet Mohamed has much more publicity and is quite a historical figure and in buddism Buddha has more publicity and is quite a historical figure also Very Happy


I have not read the Koran (and don't intend to). But, if one book says Jesus is God, that surely is a much stronger claim than "so-and-so is the biggest prophet". Both books revere Jesus, but only one mentions whats-his-face. I do find it odd that a so-called Abrahamic religion had to rewrite the entire thing. Certainly, you can't throw away the 10 commandments (and I honestly dunno if they did or didn't, just seems odd). I wish I could ask Gabriel (the angel) what the heck the deal is. "Why do they claim you told them this and that?"

bogdanontanu wrote:

To prove that will you state that you dislike the invasion of Iraq, threats on Iran and will you ask forgiveness to North American natives and return their land and resources. Will you also ask forgiveness to Japan for nuking it?


I did not nuke Japan as I wasn't even born. I don't even understand the circumstances (and I do NOT expect any dopey ass Wikipedia article or other such rubbish to inform me, okay? Give me a break!), so I do not go around calling my fellow countrymen names. Death is not a good thing inherently, but we will all die eventually. Besides, I don't enjoy thinking about such things anyways. Call me naive, but I have better things to think about.

bogdanontanu wrote:

It is obvious that Jesus is NOT God...

How could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, unlimited being or consciousness... be limited to a single human?


Obvious to you maybe, but many, many others disagree. Oh, and he's not limited to a single human (duh, because the human part was created, and how can the Creator create himself? Impossible.). I shudder to tell you because you'll just be obstinate, but ... God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit = God (the Trinity: three persons, one God). Don't ask me to explain that! Laughing

bogdanontanu wrote:

That claim is hilarious... to say at least.
It shows great dis consideration for God.


"A light-hearted man has a continual feast" (Proverbs). It's good to laugh sometimes. I actually thought the whole Gandalf/Frodo thing was quite funny. Smile

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

We can all lie.


We can... but why should we?


We shouldn't. Lying is inherently bad. I do not advocate that, only saying that it does happen regardless.

bogdanontanu wrote:

rugxulo wrote:

I still sin as much as anyone probably. I'm no better than anyone. It's not a competition.


If you say so...
Being extra humble is also a form of "pride" Wink


No. Pride is scorning others as beneath yourself. I have not done so.

bogdanontanu wrote:

It is just FAIR to make a complete picture in TIME of the atrocities committed in the name of such Christians...


It is not fair. You know full well that most of those alleged "crimes" are either wrong or misplaced. You cannot decry a religion just because its followers are not perfect. Only God is perfect. Where did anyone say, "Go with Jesus, and He will fix you immediately"?? Making a sweeping generalization about people (not the religion itself) and their alleged guilt is a bit beyond a simple "I don't believe" or whatever.

bogdanontanu wrote:

If you do not declare yourself as belonging to any group then you only have to answer for your own actions.


Nobody "belongs" to any group outside of mere words. I am a separate person from everyone else, including God. What I do is my own business. However, I am the one who will suffer for my misdeeds, and no one else. That is only fair, according to God. Sorry if eternity is not enough for you.

bogdanontanu wrote:

If the book is used as an "excuse" for crimes... well what shall we do then?
What If the book instigates to such actions?


Anybody can say, "The Bible made me do it," but we all know that people have free will. It makes it much harder to blame the Bible, though, because it explicitly says, "You shall not kill, you shall not keep a grudge against your neighbor, you shall love him, pray for him, help him." This is explicit. I'm not saying no one is guilty. In fact, the Bible says, "Hate not your neighbor. Remember, we are all guilty." (Sirach 28, 8)

bogdanontanu wrote:

Everything is his fault ... or... if you prefer nothing is his fault...
If Omniscient then he must have agreed to all evil in the first place...


No. Just because you give somebody the freedom to own a gun does not make you guilty if they misuse it. We have free will. That's better than us just being empty, vacuous robots who just do what they were programmed to do. Our dignity lies in our freedom. Love wants love, not emptiness.

bogdanontanu wrote:

What about needs for survival? If we need OIL... Can we kill then?

Can we force others to do something... "for their own good" ?

Can we at lest guide them without them honestly asking for this "guidance"?


No. Evil must never be done for good's sake. That does not ever work and is always forbidden. Not only shall we turn the other cheek, but we must "do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who mistreat us" (Luke 6). Love is patient and kind. (1 Cor 13).

Do you guys think I hate you? Do you think Christians hate you? (Not if they know what they're doing). Seriously, nobody on Earth is inherently "evil", but we all make selfish and stupid decisions sometimes. Don't forget that. There's good in everyone, but there's also free will. You can trip somebody or help them up. It's all up to you.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 05:54
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

To be a Christian, all you have to do is attempt to truly follow Christ. That's all. It doesn't matter how well or badly you fare, it only matters that you try. That is the definition.


Jedi Master Yoda -

Quote:

Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'



The Jedi religion has been around since a long long time ago, in places far far away Smile .... but just over a quarter of a century here on earth and it has millions of followers. Now there's a religion I can relate to. Protect the weak, follow the religion or don't, there is no "Please God forgive me for I have sinned, I gunned down twenty people with a machine gun .... Cheers God, BTW I'm going to do another twenty non believers tomorrow in your name, hope I make you proud" type christianity rugxulo follows.


May the force be with you rugxulo Wink

Quote:

No. Pride is scorning others as beneath yourself. I have not done so.


Really, I suspect you're alone on that belief.

Quote:

Do you guys think I hate you?


Yep! You wouldn't disrepect me by posting your religous hatred if you didn't hate me.


Quote:

Do you think Christians hate you?


Yep! The Christians that come knocking at my door and insist unless I believe what they believe I have the devil inside me clearly hate me .... for no reason! Of course in your ignorant way you are going to dismiss this statement even though it occurs at least once a month to me and yet I still thank them and wish them a good day. Here you are doing the same thing as these self proclaimed christians.... have a good day rugxulo Wink
Post 21 Jan 2007, 08:33
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
rugxulo wrote:

Every Catholic priest has to go to school for approximately 8 years minimum just to become a priest. And deacons have to go either 3 or 4 (depending on diocese, e.g. 4 in mine).

"school". You mean brainwash - and it does show.

rugxulo wrote:

And miracles do happen, can you deny them too? "Well, it never happened to me." Then okay, that's all you can honestly say. Don't pretend to have seen for sure every so-called miracle and debunked 'em.

And you probably believe in David Copperfield, UFOs and George Bush as well? ^_^

rugxulo wrote:

He is not dead. Many have seen him after the resurrection. I have not, but I suspect neither have you. Interesting that we have different views then.

"Yeah, and I've seen god - what a goddamn miracle. Cost me $100 a pop".

rugxulo wrote:

No. Evil must never be done for good's sake. That does not ever work and is always forbidden.

No christians have ever done evil against other people, and there's never been killing in the name of god. *cough*.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 10:54
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
I am deeply convinced that it's catholicism that turned my land from the most civil (in all senses) empire of the past, the Roman one, to a country where being a lazy asshole dishonest robber has sadly to be considered quite the "normality". Our culture got polluted with that f*cking catholicism to a point that we're quite the opposite that we used to be a thousand or two years ago.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 11:02
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
rugxulo wrote:
In Christianity, people are not restrained in their freedom

True, but the presence of the Holy Spirit is supposed to have some influence on the peoples, or not?
Well, I didn't saw this influence anywhere. If you count the crimes dones by atheist leaders and those dones by popes, just to make one example, the latter are even worse. So much for this Holy Spirit! The world is more good and inspired without. Very Happy

_________________
Greets,
Fabio
Post 21 Jan 2007, 11:08
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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
MichaelH wrote:
The Jedi religion has been around since a long long time ago, in places far far away


HA, last time I checked (which was about 6 years ago) The census bureau was only a few people short to make Jedi an official religion. So many people were marking 'other' and writing in Jedi Knight that they only needed a few thousand more people to to dedicate a box for Jedi Knight and make it a state recognized religion.
Post 21 Jan 2007, 14:31
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