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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
I thought it was a super nice gesture of him. We should all be so lucky to have such generous friends (giving gifts on their birthday? Not around here!).

You can deny the Pope, but you cannot deny Jesus. Any flaws which you claim to see in the Holy Father are not present in Christ in any form (see the Gospels). Therefore, you would gladly follow Him, no? Why not?! (Bah, always some silly reason.)

But whatever, the point was just to prove that the Pope doesn't hoard what he has (nor does God). Give it up, the world isn't as bleak as you make it out to be. Boo hoo, we have a generous, loving God who listens intently, treats us nice, and wants us all to get along. What a pity!

Seriously, if the Vatican (or whoever) annoys you so bad, then pray for their improvement. God listens and answers speedily. But it may not be what you think, only what He thinks is best. Don't wish evil, we are all frail and weak. We all need strength and love. (Seriously, there's enough unhappiness and hate in the world. Let's not let that rule over us.)
Post 24 May 2007, 08:39
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
What are those priests supposed to do with those extra $1300 given as personal money? Spend them with whores? For cocaine?

A priest is not supposed to own nor spend money for himself.

Quote:
You can deny the Pope, but you cannot deny Jesus.

I can deny whatever I want. And there aren't even historical 100% certain proof of the existance of that MAN.

Quote:
Seriously, if the Vatican (or whoever) annoys you so bad, then pray for their improvement.

Like before Franklin invented the lightning rod, when people were praying for lighting not to strike churches? Churches were the type of buildings more often hit by lightnings. And that didn't happen because of sins, but because the churches were often the highest buildings in town, and had wood roofs.

Would an intelligent person pray or seek for a scientifical solution? In the specific case, a real solution against the crappiness of the Vatican is not to pray (what a useless waste of time!), but first of all removing their tax privileges and all other privileges they abuse in my country. Also, prosecute all those thousands (if not more) of priests who made pedophile acts, instead of covering them like the Vatican does. Shame on you!

You pray, we rather act instead. If it was for me, I would cancel the Vatican from the face of my country. They're the financial cancer of Rome, they own most of it with their dirty business, and no child is safe with a priest in range!

Quote:
God listens and answers speedily. But it may not be what you think, only what He thinks is best.

Oh yes, when a priest rapes a child, then it's certainly God's will, and God knows it was the best for the child, right? Or for the bastard priest? When you hear about a 3 months old child with terminal cancer, also that was for his own best, right?

Come on, get a life, the Middle Ages are abundantly over, you catholic monkey!!
Post 24 May 2007, 09:17
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
I thought I'd throw this into the conversation. I think its an interesting concept and in-line with some of the opinions I've seen in this discussion.
Post 24 May 2007, 13:37
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
nice. another guy who believes in his own brain.
Post 24 May 2007, 14:37
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Here's a quote from HyperVista's link:
"We believe in Original Virtue rather than Original Sin. We are a Doubt-Based rather than Faith-Based religion."
Obviously an improvement over the conventional Judeo-Christian sects, but, nevertheless, clearly influenced by them. How would their web site appear, if they had been influenced instead by Gautama, i.e. Buddhism? Perhaps there are other web sites which similarly espouse belief in secular, atheistic, sensory based cognition, but which are derived from influences of religious doctrines other than Judaism.
rugxulo wrote:
God listens and answers speedily.
dear god: I won't ask you to stop the senseless brutality by USA, murdering, raping, and abusing so many innocent Iraquis, whose only crime was to have been born on top of the USA's oil field; nor, will I ask you to stop the barbaric murders in Africa, where the muslims have butchered millions of innocents, but, please, can you just give me a simple cpu, one with a single addressing mode, one with a design acknowledging the plentiful, cheap memory available today, instead of an architecture, as at present, which imagines that memory still costs $1000/kilobyte. Thanks for your "speedy" reply, your humble servant.....
Post 24 May 2007, 20:12
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
It is way too easy to point the finger at someone else than to look at ourselves. But, it is also "easier" (though still not easy) to change / control our own actions than someone else. And we are not supposed to control others. We are supposed to be free (by design). No matter how much hypocrisy you see (or claim to see) regarding the Church, the idea is still that God exists (aka, Jesus) and is good.

The commandments are it, that's the center of it all, loving God and neighbor. You know full well that none of us are perfect, so why do you hold priests to be more accountable? Ridiculous. If the computer is prone to failure, you can't get mad because that's the way it is. Why get angry at what you can't control?

Quote:

http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/special/serenity.html

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


Anyways, I was really NOT trying to bring up this debate again, only wanting to prove that the Pope isn't living in an ivory tower getting fat, ignoring everyone else on Earth. Indeed, we all have a long way to go to know, love, and serve God in His goodness.

P.S. Prayer is powerful, certainly not useless. Never, ever could I pretend otherwise. It is central to the entire relationship with God which we need so much.
Post 24 May 2007, 21:41
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
rugxulo: does prayer have any effect observable by human senses?
Post 24 May 2007, 21:49
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
vid, when you have extreme difficulty at something and pray and the problem improves or even goes away completely, it is hard to deny that. I gain nothing by telling you this, so why would you not believe me? No one wants to control you, only help. (Dare I say that I'm young and unpretentious like you? I'm not trying to be annoying here.)

God is 100% willing to accept and help anyone with open arms. God wants us to be happy (especially after death), but sometimes that isn't immediately possible here on Earth. However, He does help A LOT, even regarding temporary stuff. "All good comes from God", so whether you know it or not, He's already helping. No reason or advantage to denying His existence or genuine goodness. Just a quick glance at the Gospel of John itself shows his immediate concern and help towards the poor, the suffering, etc. He loves us with all His heart (sappy but true, thankfully!).
Post 24 May 2007, 22:05
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
vid, when you have extreme difficulty at something and pray and the problem improves or even goes away completely, it is hard to deny that.

Only if there are no other factors that could have helped. Until then, you can't be sure.

do you realize that this is scientifically testable claim? We can get together people with problems, let half of them pray and other don't, and see if problem of those who prayed gets better (without their intervention) than of those who didn't. We can repeat this test many times, and if result would go towards something significantly higher than 50%, it suggests that prayers really work.

Do you believe prayers would pass such test?

BTW: We could also pray for something, and then immediately pray for exact opposite, and see results :]
Post 24 May 2007, 22:37
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I pray that ragxulo gets a life and becomes an illuminated atheist.
I PRAY A LOT.

ragxulo: please drop some blasphemous words if you're here!! Very Happy
Post 25 May 2007, 07:30
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
DustWolf
vid wrote:
do you realize that this is scientifically testable claim? We can get together people with problems, let half of them pray and other don't, and see if problem of those who prayed gets better (without their intervention) than of those who didn't. We can repeat this test many times, and if result would go towards something significantly higher than 50%, it suggests that prayers really work.

Do you believe prayers would pass such test?

BTW: We could also pray for something, and then immediately pray for exact opposite, and see results :]


I think I know the circumstances under which prayers would pass this test.

It's if the problem was psychological. You might think of this as a single exception, but I think these cases are those that make the biggest impression on people who are not yet completely decided if to believe or if not to.

Most problems in a human life are purely pyschological. Prayers would help in those cases, but only if the prayers were true believers. Laughing Tho, indeed, these may or may not pass the "without their intervention" criteria.
Post 25 May 2007, 11:46
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon

My thoughts in square brackets

Sing along everyone!!!!!


Us And Them.
Quote:

Us and them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do

"Forward" he cried from the rear and the front rank died [This is brilliant to sing, hold onto "died", don't go flat!]

And the General sat, and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side [All these wars just for lines on a map Sad ]

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words the poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside

Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about.
Out of the way, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died.

[This is why people like Maverick rebel against the church ..... how many slices can 500 euro buy?]





Brain Damage.

Quote:


The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path.

The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more.

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane. [You = the church/religous leaders ..... am I sane or just brainwashed???]

You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me [ the words come out of my mouth "God is light, love etc" ..... but it's not me speaking Sad ]

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon. [dark side of the moon = depression]




Eclipse. Turn volume to ear drum brusting levels and sing along.

Quote:

All that you touch
All that you see
All that you taste
All you feel
All that you love
All that you hate
All you distrust
All you save
All that you give
All that you deal
All that you buy beg, borrow or steal
All you create
All you destroy
All that you do
All that you say
All that you eat
Everyone you meet
All that you slight
Everyone you fight
All that is now
All that is gone
All that's to come
And everything under the sun is in tune
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon. [But the sun is eclipsed by religion/God Sad ]




Out of the way rugxulo, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
Post 29 May 2007, 01:23
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Quote:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=51373

Lviv, May. 25, 2007 (CWNews.com) - Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) has donated €100,000 ($135,000) toward the construction of a student residence for the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv.

The gift from the Holy Father, received last week by Cardinal Lubomyr Husar, the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, is being welcomed as a strong sign of papal support for the Byzantine Church. The university's rector remarked: "We are very grateful to the Holy Father for his gift, which is not only material, but also spiritual aid.”


P.S. Prayer alone does nothing. It is God, if He chooses to be generous (as He often does), that answers. And it is not necessarily what we want but what we need. You cannot (or should not) be wishy washy and try to manipulate, trick, or misuse God's goodness for silly reasons.

Physical miracles are the only real proof of prayer's efficacy. No sort of personal experiments will fully prove it, but God does not hide. He is always available, even if He is too gentle and humble to make a big scene over everything. (Please don't offend Him: He deserves our best.)
Post 29 May 2007, 03:28
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
1) So if I'm not catholic I will not benefit from this university, or at the very least (if the sect makes me enter) I will be looked as a stranger and forced in the head a lot of catholic bullshit. Why don't he donate to a state university instead?!??!
2) 100000 EUR for the ultra hype rich Vatican which owns 22% of all the buildings of Italy (and bet it, they're the biggest and most expensive ones!) are MUCH LESS THAN NOTHING, will you ever realize that?!?
3) By developing the catholic universities and making them more comfortable than the State one, he's only doing his own and the Church's interests in the end.
4) He's really sticking a hot rod in the ass of the Ukrainian orthodoxes with those 100K, don't you realize it?
5) He's really sticking a hot rod in the ass of the pro-Russia Ukrainians with those 100K, don't you realize it?
6) The Pope is politics, not religion.
7) When will he donate 1 billion US$ to atheist poors? Or to poors in general? Or to help develop them? 1 billion US$ is still NOTHING for the Vatican.

Wake up naive kid!


Last edited by Maverick on 29 May 2007, 07:13; edited 2 times in total
Post 29 May 2007, 07:05
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
PLEASE PUTIN BRING BACK THE USSR!!!

Here I'm not saying the USSR was perfect or neither good, here I'm not saying Putin is any good: but at least when the USSR existed, the USA and the Vatican were much less arrogant. Enough to ask it again: PLEASE PUTIN BRING BACK THE USSR!!!

I want the cold war to be back! Very Happy
Post 29 May 2007, 07:11
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Maverick wrote:
1) So if I'm not catholic I will not benefit from this university, or at the very least (if the sect makes me enter) I will be looked as a stranger and forced in the head a lot of catholic bullshit. Why don't he donate to a state university instead?!??!
3) By developing the catholic universities and making them more comfortable than the State one, he's only doing his own and the Church's interests in the end.


Own interests? Technically, yes, but ... well, duh! He's supporting the faith, which he has spent 50+ years devoting his life to. Why would he support a non-Catholic university when there are Catholic ones which he can help? Helping Catholics in no way hurts non-Catholics. (And you obviously, as you probably know, don't have to be Catholic to attend Catholic school.)

Maverick wrote:

2) 100000 EUR for the ultra hype rich Vatican which owns 22% of all the buildings of Italy (and bet it, they're the biggest and most expensive ones!) are MUCH LESS THAN NOTHING, will you ever realize that?!?


That's a bit silly. So now he doesn't even get credit just because he supposedly has more? I don't see anyone on this forum giving anywhere near that much. That's a lot of money, whether you're rich or not. It's ludicrous to assume that he isn't being generous here.
Post 29 May 2007, 13:03
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
ragxulo wrote:
It's ludicrous to assume that he isn't being generous here.
Oh my God (so to speak), don't you spot your big big mistake here? How can he be generous, when he owns nothing!! Have you forgot?

Did Christ own anything? His panties maybe? Would that be enough to own trillions US$ as a consequence?

That's really sick.. it's like talking to walls.
Post 29 May 2007, 13:15
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Well I kinda got used to these kind of discussions. Really. And I wanted to lessen the hot atmosphere a bit. People come on, these kind of discussions never lead to anything, it's all the repeat-same-stuff.. just let people choose what they want freely.

"You can tell a person about God. You can tell a person about the theory of evolution, Big Bang, etc... Both should be allowed and both should be treated equally, in a "fair" system of course? The idea is, you don't force the person to that particular idea, but let him/her choose freely".

vid made good points about the "perception" with our human senses. Because we are limited to that. If God exists, and He has shown himself to the first humans, isn't that ignorance if we just ignore Him? Note however that atheists want to find historical proof. Well to be honest, that's why probably no one heard from a person from the future. Because perhaps there are A LOT of people from the future (we call them crazy) but they can't prove to us.. because we want '5 senses' proof method, we are blind in that situation. Wink

Imagine yourself being Jesus.. What would you do to make people believe you? Of course, perhaps everyone would believe you in that century, but later on?? they will want proof with their 5 senses?

What if you have some proof, but people will lose their eyes after a few centuries somehow and become blind -- and now no one knows what colors are, nor light rays.. Therefore light rays are not considered 'proof' anymore? What would you do with your previous proof (notice that by this time you're long time dead). That's why limiting ourselves to our five senses (and consequently proofs) is not the wisest solution. Perhaps it's the clearest one, but not the wisest one Very Happy


Athiests usually start with "The Pope sinned, the Pope is greedy, etc.." stuff like that Very Happy it's perfectly understandable since the Pope is a human just as everyone.

Pope doesn't equal God. That's the main confusion. He is still a human. Note this is talking in general, not pointing fingers on any particular priest or the Pope.

Humans make sins, make mistakes.. Hey I can become a priest and be greedy as well, but just because I'm a priest doesn't mean I'm necessarily a "pure" person (that is, without sins) and with God. Very Happy

You need to look at God's teaching rather than Pope. Pope can go to Hell as well if he sins Wink


In the Ten commandments, killing someone is a sin. Therefore, those who claim "In the name of God, I sentence you to death" are, unfortunately, not following God's teachings, therefore their statement is false. In fact, it's more like a pretext, they can't find a better excuse. If we were all following God's commandments (even if you did not believe in God, but just followed the commandments 100%), this world wouldn't have any wars at all because such acts are sins. And we wouldn't be greedy either, we would live in harmony, much like elves in fantasy. Smile

Unfortunately as can be seen, we have wars, greed, etc... so we don't follow the commandments 100% (everyone, includes the Pope). But seriously, I don't remember an atheist being more "generous" if not for his "fame" or power/money.


Now you can get to a different scenario:

Imagine deaf people -- they cannot hear, therefore 'sound' is not a proof at all.. right?

now imagine some people (few of them) had ears.. will those deaf believe them that sound exists? Why and why?

Maybe religious people have a "spiritual" sense with which they "see" or "feel" God, and atheists fail to use? I don't know it's just a saying Wink

By the way everyone, let's just not heat up this board with this kind of talk. I have summed up my first impression on it, and probably last post on such thread. (I hope so) Razz
Post 29 May 2007, 14:35
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6034
Location: Poland
MHajduk
Maverick wrote:
PLEASE PUTIN BRING BACK THE USSR!!!
USSR - United Sardino-Sicilian Republic? Wink
Post 30 May 2007, 08:51
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
hehehe.. why not, islands united against the mainland! Wink
Post 30 May 2007, 09:03
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