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tantrikwizard



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
tantrikwizard
tom tobias wrote:
I am unable to explain why "rugxulo" cited the "Declaration of Independence", authored by slave owner and renowned atheist Thomas Jefferson
There's a new social engineering project under way indocterinating the jesus cult members to believe the united states was based on christianity. This makes kookoos like rugxulo believe their cult has more creditability.
in 1786 Thomas Jefferson wrote:
our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
Sam Adams wrote:
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
In 1797 John Adams wrote:
the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
Post 26 Feb 2007, 13:39
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
<sarcasm>
Sounds like Thomas Jefferson couldn't make up his mind. Too many contradictions in his writings. He must be a total liar! Therefore, we must throw all his writings out!
</sarcasm>

tom tobias' link URL wrote:

We all know that "enlightenment" is a state of mind which is unthinkable, indescribable and beyond any notion of duality: Saints and common people are all the same; God, if there is any, and Devil are not different, so what use is it "to draw near to God," when one is enlightened?


Several problems here: separation from the world is impossible, "hell" is a state of mind (!), plus God and the Lame-o are definitely NOT the same.

Quote:

However, for others, especially for those who are open-minded and who have a minimum respect for intellectual honesty, this analysis may provide some food for conscientious thought.


This basically is a back-handed insult towards the Church. In other words, the Church (in this guy's opinion) is not "open-minded" nor has any "respect for intellectual honesty". That reeks of pride, putting yourself above others intellectually and spiritually. Pride is a bad thing, in God's eyes and man's. There is no good in pride. Pride is the worst kind of attitude. It is not conducive to love. (Remember, "God is love" : He is the source of all pure love.)

I have already denied having any extraordinary spiritual powers or any kind of inherently better ability to deal with God than anyone else. However, if I am exposed to truth, I cannot pretend that it does not exist just because someone else doesn't know or agree. That does not make me better, but it is my own responsibility not to mislead myself or others.

Quote:

A member of the Federation of Buddhist Organizations in Sri Lanka, Nalin de Silva, said the Pope's remarks were malicious and appeared to be a reaction to the recent spread of Buddhism and Islam in Europe. "He is trying to defend his faith," de Silva said, "Islam and Buddhism are the main challenges to Christianity."


If he is telling the truth and wants to spread that truth for the benefit of others, he is not being malicious. If he knowingly is telling a lie, that would be bad. However, who here can know for sure what he was thinking? Do not man's words and actions show his intentions? Somewhat, yes, but we cannot fully know for sure. So, it's better not to assume bad intent. Give him "the benefit of the doubt" (i.e. give him a little credit since he has not proven himself to be such a horribly angry, mean person).

It's also a two-way street. Christians (like me) are not to assume or act as if everyone who isn't perfectly following Christ is intentionally evil. (If that's what you feel, it's not true. I do not hate or want to "fix" anyone. But maybe you've already seen the limits in your own current line of thought. If it doesn't work, you have to find something else.)

Quote:

Rev. Ken Tanaka, a professor at the institute for Buddhist Studies in Berkeley, said it is clear that the pope "hasn't done his homework" and presents "a very simplistic view of Buddhism. "Essentially, Buddhism is about becoming detached from greed, hatred and ignorance - not from the world," Tanaka said. "That's how one awakens to a higher level of awareness."


Sorry to burst your bubble. It's not like I'm so inherently smart either. I wasn't born with this knowledge, and I can't claim any real good of my own doing. Face it, if you could "save yourself", wouldn't you have already done it by now?? What are you waiting for? It's because you can't. "But there's nothing to save ourselves from!" Yeah right, like the world is perfect, and everybody likes it exactly the way it is. No way does anyone want anything better ("utopia", anyone?).

Quote:

Rev. Thomas Hand, a Catholic priest, said he wished the pope "were able to speak about Buddhism from experience. You can't speak about anything as obviously profound as Buddhism without getting into it."


Buddhism as a religion is invalid. Buddhism as a philosophy (if it denies Christ) is invalid. Any Catholic priest "should" tell you that much.

Quote:

Lama Ole Nydahl, a teacher affiliated with the Kamtsang Choling, U.S.A., part of a Tibetan Buddhist sect, was not surprised with the pope's comments. "How could a man like him possibly agree with a religion like Buddhism, which takes people beyond dualism and produces a healthy relationship with their bodies and minds?" he asked.


What has Buddhism ever done for the body? What has it ever done for the mind?

Quote:

"In most European countries, secularism has already triumphed completely. In that region, organized religions - Catholic, Protestant and Jewish - are regarded as alike in their insistence to absolutes. They are considered to have little or nothing to contribute, therefore, to the current political, economic and cultural life of Western European countries...


Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish all admittedly share the same God (and the Old Testament as "inspired"). Granted, they are not entirely "equal" in doctrine, but they do indeed have a common center.

Quote:

"The Pope is well aware that, in the next century, Catholicism will survive only in Third World countries. Catholicism has always flourished only in poor population of low educational quality. The sophisticated West can take Catholicism's narrowness no longer. The Pope realizes that."


Again, you're saying that you are inherently smarter than others, than only "intelligent" people can know the truth. Does God scorn anyone? No, in fact, He loves us all equally.

No, the truth from God comes when He wants. He is in control, even if we don't agree. If God wanted us to all suffer, we would be suffering MUCH more than now. Man can NOT live without God! If only you would recognize your own weakness, you would cling to Him forever!

I have seen some suffering (maybe not as much as others but enough to scare me). Surely, God's help does come, especially when it is sorely needed. It is just impossible to deny (for me ... at least, why would I??).

Seriously, I lived without knowing God, and my life was no better. There is no advantage, not a drop. Besides, if you have a choice, surely you want what is good.

Quote:

He has no hope in the more advanced, civilized countries where his followers directly confront him with their opinions on the Church's outdated dogmas that are against their time and incompatible with their social realities.


Yes, how outdated: love of God and neighbor, rejecting evil, following God's example, not letting ourselves fall into anarchy, accepting some discipline and authority (parents, anyone?) as being helpful to life.

Quote:

No wonder that Romanists are unpopular with progressive and intelligent people;


Sound of one hand clapping? It must be the same as that of patting one's self on the back 24/7. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

If we are agreed that democracy is the ideal political form, we agree also to teach all people to think critically and inquire without restriction as the only way to get it to work satisfactorily. The law of the Catholic Church is just the opposite. You must not inquire outside your own creed and you must not think critically even within its range."


Since when was democracy the all-holy good for the whole world?? Who Catholic says you can't think critically?

Quote:

"Rome loves the illiterate. They are so easily persuaded to burn "heretics" and kiss bogus relics."


Heresy is more complicated than just disagreeing with Christian teachings. In fact, it is not thrown around at all (at least, not in my area). We haven't kissed any relics (although how can you call them "bogus" without good reason?)

Quote:

"It is my contention and my sincere conviction, from my experience in the Catholic educational system, my life of 15 years in the priesthood, and 13 years of constant observation and intense study since leaving the Church, that its influence on all civilization has been far more evil than of good. Intellectually, the Church of Rome has done its best to strangle the human mind and stifle mental initiative. It must do this if it is to survive. No thinking, intelligent, historically studious person, especially a freedom-loving American, can become or remain a Roman Catholic."


Pride: he despises the Catholics. It is "evil" in his eyes, even though no building or group of people are inherently "evil". Only actions can be evil, and even then, I can't fix that (except my own). And what does he revere? Is it God? Nope, but "intelligence" and "freedom" and "America" (ooh, I can feel the non-Americans on this forum fuming at that idea! "America is good?!?").

Quote:

In America today, the fanatic Catholics are the first who fight against the new traditions and the scientific world.


Yeah right. Abortion: 1,001 ways to kill a baby. How progressive, how open-minded, how wonderful.

"Babies? Who needs 'em. It's all about us. We rule the world, we love our intellect and toys, and nobody can take it away from us. We propose that baby-making shouldn't be allowed to make babies unless we say so. We want complete control over who lives and dies. We should be able to kill whom we wish. Why shouldn't we? Aren't we our own gods?"

Quote:

The above documents are only a small sample from the vast amount of literature about the Catholic Church, readily available in public and university libraries. These documents prove that the remarks of the theologian Malachi Martin are accurate.


Right, and the Bible proves nothing? I trust the Bible more than some recent meandering from a so-called scholar who has his own agenda. Surely more effort (years and years!) went into the Bible than this guy's writings.

This is why people shun God: not that He sounds bad, but everyone claims something different, and it is impossible to choose. Again, if God does not "help" us, we cannot change, convert, improve, love, do anything good (really).

Quote:

In the underdeveloped poor countries, population growth without control will lead to millions of human beings, mostly infants, dying of malnutrition, diseases etc... Who is responsible for this? Does the Vatican care about this?


Millions of babies (in the U.S. alone) are killed intentionally every year. The Vatican still decries that as immoral, but does anyone listen? Some do, but most don't. And yet, why is the starvation of innocent others important if you disregard the innocent murder of the unborn? You cannot pick and choose. Either all life is precious or none is. Stop pretending that one kind of death is acceptable and the other is not.

Quote:

"The pope goes on traveling around the world preaching that birth control is against God; that any method of preventing the birth of a child is anti-God - particularly in the countries of the East where people are so poor, and they are going to become poorer everyday. But the pope's interest is not that man should live comfortably, without hunger.


So having a baby makes everyone else suffer and go hungry? You equate new life to badness?? And you can't just say, "Well, let's not have sex."?? This is so impossible for you? You, who claim you are so intelligent and can enlighten and save yourself, can't even abstain from sex?? Then who is the master: you or the craving? Who is really in control?

Quote:

...The popes don't seem to be interested in saving humanity. Their basic interest is how to get more and more people into their religion, because that is going to be their power. It is pure politics."


The pope cannot save anyone, only God can. Besides, if you deny heaven or hell, good or bad, what do you care??

Quote:

And, you will be surprised to know that on one hand, the pope goes on talking against birth control methods; and on the other, the Vatican has a hidden factory where they make birth control pills - because it is good business; it brings millions of dollars.


So now you're against birth control?? First, the Church is bad because it forbids it. Then, the Church is bad because it "sells it in secret"?? Which is it? Make up your mind.

Where do people get all these dumb ideas? Oh yeah, I forget:

"Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out."
"GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out"
Post 26 Feb 2007, 20:00
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
rugxulo, at nine pages long when you said "eof", I thought to myself, nine pages of bigotry and hatred aimed at those who are different to yourself was something quite astonishing and hard to believe. However I was pleased you finally decided the total rudeness you had exhibited towards those different to yourself was finally over. But alas 12 pages ( and counting ) it's still going Sad

Not to mention the fact you're wasting Tomasz's storage space for your hatred ..... I find you to be one of the rudest I have met on the net and I've met some really rude people. How about since you claim to be a christian, you actually follow the christian teachings and at least try to be humble!!!!!!!
Post 26 Feb 2007, 20:50
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
http://buddhismtoday.com/english/dialogue/04-tcn-doithoaigiaohoang.htm
writing in this article, above, Dr.TranChungNgoc offered criticism of the Catholic perspective, as elaborated by JohnPaulII.
rugxuolo, responding to this criticism of the catholic church, wrote:

Rev. Ken Tanaka, a professor at the institute for Buddhist Studies in Berkeley, California wrote:

it is clear that the pope "hasn't done his homework" and presents "a very simplistic view of Buddhism. "Essentially, Buddhism is about becoming detached from greed, hatred and ignorance - not from the world," Tanaka said. "That's how one awakens to a higher level of awareness."
Sorry to burst your bubble. It's not like I'm so inherently smart either. I wasn't born with this knowledge, and I can't claim any real good of my own doing. Face it, if you could "save yourself", wouldn't you have already done it by now??
Umm, "rugxulo", do you understand the meaning of non-sequitur? I can not seem to engage in dialogue with you. I can not communicate with you. Your answers are laborious, verbose, and rambling, but incoherent. What are you seeking to explain in response to Tanaka? How have you "burst my bubble"? So "inherently smart"? What does intelligence have to do with this discussion? Your answer, in my opinion, is disjointed, and without relationship to the theme of the thread. Maybe the problem is with me...Perhaps some other forum member can intercede to clarify what you are trying to write.....I cannot follow your arguments.
Yesterday, out of nowhere, you introduced Thomas Jefferson's ideas. I can not fathom why. What does Jefferson have to do with Buddhism? Do you not grasp that this topic is about Buddhism---its shortcomings, its features, its parameters, its limitations, its history, its modus vivendi. I submitted a link, above, to assist you in relating your own interest, Catholicism, to the intent of the thread, and your long winded rebuttal of Dr. Ngoc, from my narrow minded point of view, was utterly irrelevant. You failed, in my opinion, to address any of the central themes of Dr. Ngoc's article, for example, this one:
Dr. Ngoc wrote:
Although it is very unlikely that we will have a dialogue with John Paul II, if we want to make some comments on his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, then we should, because this is one of our basic rights in this free world. We should try to understand his motive for writing this book. Once we understand his motive, our understanding and compassion will lead to forgiveness, and we will be able to detach ourselves from everything [unfavorable] he has written about Buddha and Buddhism.
rugxulo, responding to Ngoc's criticism of the Catholic ignorance of the fundamentals of Buddhist ideology wrote:
...and the Bible proves nothing? I trust the Bible more than some recent meandering from a so-called scholar who has his own agenda. Surely more effort (years and years!) went into the Bible than this guy's writings.

Gosh, so many errors in logic, here. First, do we measure the validity of anything, in terms of the effort and time needed or devoted to affect its outcome? I don't think so. We do not applaud Aristotle for commencing the scientific perspective because of the centuries of effort that preceded his own studies....Time, and EFFORT, do not equate to VALIDITY. Einstein's theory of relativity came to him in a flash, as he recognized, while gazing upon two clock towers, that time itself is not constant, but rather, dependent upon the frame of reference of the observer. Validity of something depends upon independent verification, not centuries of toil. Conversely, the fact that TWO MILLENIA have been devoted to spreading falsehoods about certain matters, does not change water into ice, or plumbium into aureum. In computer science, "rugxulo", you know, better than most, the longer and larger a program, the LESS likely it is to be accurate, notwithstanding the enormous amount of energy that went into its creation. Finally, NO. No, we do not know how much effort went into this guy's scholarship. Your attack against his writing is unjust. He is not here on this forum to defend himself, you certainly ought not denounce him for his effort. You are more than welcome to criticise his ideas, but that you seem reluctant to commence, instead suggesting that the "Bible" has more validity than Buddhist scriptures, written five hundred years before the "Bible". Personally, I don't rely upon Buddhist documents, but I dislike the idea of criticizing documents, Buddhist, or any other, without first reading them. I certainly disapprove of using some other documents, written half a millenium later, bearing absolutely no connection with the former documents as "proof" that the first set are invalid.
Post 26 Feb 2007, 21:38
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
I totally agree with Tom's calls to get this thread back on the topic of Buddhism. How dare you rugxulo consider yourself so important than you destroy a thread just because you dislike it's content. I'm not one for censorship but if vid is still reading this thread, can you move or dump the 10+ pages of hatred posted by rugxulo so this thread can get back to to the subject in the title.

I know Tomasz likes to keep all opinions so maybe the christian hatred posted by rugxulo can be moved to a thread called "the rantings of an insane christian" or something along that line.

Thanks to those who have enlighten me on the subject of Buddhism despite rugxulo's chanting of christian bigotry.
Post 26 Feb 2007, 22:05
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
tom tobias, my quoting of the Declaration of Independence was an example of how someone (besides myself) acknowledged the creation of the world by God and His intent that we have certain unalienable rights. It was a response to this:

tantrikwizard wrote:

Sense you like what others have to say so much...here's a few quotes from esteemed founding fathers of the United States.


I do not, however, put a lot of faith in what anyone says (even presidents), though, if they contradicts the Bible.

MichaelH, this discussion is not for the faint of heart. It is not meant to make you immediately happy. Even the topic warns you, so why are you still reading if you are easily offended? Can we adults not temper our emotions? Are not words just empty sounds and letters? How is it my fault if you're offended? Is that my intent? It's really that you just disagree and have issues with my posts here. I broke no law telling you these things. Besides, 12 pages hardly wastes huge amounts of server space. (However, if the admin wants to lock this thread, I can't stop 'em.)

For sure, I can find (and have seen) many, many offensive things on the Internet, whether I seek it out or not. However, I cannot change their minds, and I cannot control them. All I can do is advocate truth, especially in regards to God. I cannot be silent in this matter without hurting someone. (There are a LOT of kooks out there regarding faith.)

However, I do take some offense at someone attacking the entire Church, and I scorn their anti-Christian delusions. It is beyond one person's right to criticize and demonize an entire Church of people, especially when the attackers have no composure of their own besides alleged quotes from random other people. (It is not me attacking Buddhists themselves, although I completely deny their so-called truths, but instead it is me responding to a vehemently anti-Catholic person, this so-called "doctor"). I also don't see John Paul II here to defend himself, so can I not defend his beliefs here if I wholeheartedly agree? What about Christ? Should I ignore His feelings too?

But yours (and theirs) is the common reaction to Christianity. People don't like being told this. They want to live their lives however they want. But you can't do so without imploding.

St. Augustine wrote:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected.


EDIT:

tom tobias wrote:

instead suggesting that the "Bible" has more validity than Buddhist scriptures, written five hundred years before the "Bible"


Perhaps you are referring to the New Testament. The Old Testament (most of it, anyways) has been around for several thousand years B.C.
Post 26 Feb 2007, 22:27
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
I don't give a shit what your religous opinion is you arrogant jerk!!!! Vid can you deal with this wanker's religous bigotry so we can get back to learning about Buddhism.
Post 26 Feb 2007, 22:41
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
MichaelH: sorry, i started to split this thread, but that would be job for at least a hour. And still, there are many posts discussing both christianity and buddhism, so even splitting buddhism off and renaming this thread won't help.

I would suggest new thread where we will discuss budhism only, and every discussion on christianity would be banned and removed (for sure less work for me).
Post 26 Feb 2007, 23:04
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
If it's agreeable to Tom and tantrikwizard, the two main ones who have tried to teach us all something about Buddhism, I would appreciate them reposting their constructive teachings about Buddhism in another thread and delete this thread.


In future any posts that have religious bigotry in them should be deleted. I appreciate the fasm forum for all the things it's teaches but I for one do not think religious bigotry should be one of the things taught.

Thankyou for your time vid
Post 26 Feb 2007, 23:22
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vid
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vid
how about mixed posts (both budhism and christianity)? leave them here or move them to new "cleared" budhism thread?

By the way - no reason to delete this, that would be censorship.
Post 26 Feb 2007, 23:33
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Start a new Buddhism thread and ask those who want too, to add intelligent, constructive posts void of religious intolerance. Anything else and it's deleted.

If rugxulo feels aggrieved then let him start a christian thread and protect it against attacks the same way you protect the Buddhism thread.

Quote:

By the way - no reason to delete this, that would be censorship.


I'm against censorship as well but doesn't that apply to intelligent constructive debates. There is little to no intelligent or constructive debate in this thread!
Post 27 Feb 2007, 00:04
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
On second thought, save yourself the time and effort vid and just ban religious debates altogether. I can't stand religious intolerance. I'd rather come to a fasm forum free from it but don't believe it will ever happen by just asking those who preach religious intolerance here to stop it. So although it would be nice to be able to learn different religious beliefs from one another, I believe all that we will learn by allowing religious debate is religious intolerance ..... as usual Sad
Post 27 Feb 2007, 00:31
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vid
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vid
there was discussion on this some time ago, and i expressed myself that no opinion should be banned. I also like to take part in religious debates, and i don't feel offended in any way by them.

i see banning religious debate as intolerance against religious people too. Then, goodbeheaved people may be offended by rude jokes, ban those too. And political discussions too. And some people might be offended by someone presenting and advocating some technology from Microsoft. Someone other might be offended by someone else advocating GPL, and result in flame. And you would end up doublechecking every word whether it doesn't belong to list of forbiddent things.

Like recently on ALA, i wrote "don't be nazi" to someone who was adhering rules beyond logic (quite usual phrase for me), and man, should you have seen those reactions. That is not what i want.

Censorship is not a solution.
Post 27 Feb 2007, 00:51
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Quote:

Censorship is not a solution.


It's a better solution than religious intolerance! Please do something about it.
Post 27 Feb 2007, 01:17
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tom tobias



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tom tobias
in my opinion, vid is absolutely correct.
censorship is NOT a suitable response.
Michael, RELAX.
Yes, "rugxulo" is wasting bandwidth, but the solution is not to ban all discussions except what person xyz finds appropriate.
Nor is it vid's job to take a pair of sissors and cut and paste the relevant components.
Relax.
Remember what Voltaire wrote, on the occasion of the Lisbon earthquake, as Pangloss and Candide were going along: It is the best of all possible worlds!
Post 27 Feb 2007, 01:48
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Go get stuffed Tom! I hate religious intolerance and I'm making my feelings known .... or is it just you delusional people with your belief, that posting endless mindless drivel from either the bible or in your case some other ridiculous moron who decided to put pen to paper, are the only opinions that count?

I don't know whose worse, rugxulo's bible bashing or the other mindless side of this threads mindless debate. I once thought you tom had a mind that was worth listening too but since all you have done lately is endless tit for tat retribution with rugxulo in a pathetic showing of complete contempt for anyone who wants to see a coming together of differing views, I hold you as responsible as rugxulo for what has happened to this thread. What on earth do you people think you're achieving?????????

Bring back the days of intelligent debate, cause this "I'll have my way at all cost with no thought too others" nonsense has gone way too far!


I HATE RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT ..... is that clear enough for you tom!


Last edited by MichaelH on 27 Feb 2007, 02:47; edited 1 time in total
Post 27 Feb 2007, 02:19
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tantrikwizard



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tantrikwizard
MichaelH wrote:
Bring back the days of intelligent debate...
Sorry, not going to happen when trying to talk to people who discount education, logic and science for fantasy, cliches and fanaticism. Afterall, there is no logic or intellegence in faith based systems, that is why theyre based in 'faith' and 'belief' not logic or evidence.
Post 27 Feb 2007, 02:36
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
I don't give a shit what your opinion is tantrikwizard. You, tom and rugxulo are just mindless morons entrenched in a war of never ending oneupmenship. I've grown tired of the intolerance from all three. So rugxulo has found god, good for him. So you found god doesn't exist, good for you. So tom hates the Jewish view of things (his own people), good for him ...... now can we just move on!
Post 27 Feb 2007, 03:00
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vid
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vid
MichaelH: you know the solution... don't take part in topics you don't like. I think i can say this is official way of board, because even Tomasz does it this way.

Quote:
Quote:
Censorship is not a solution.

It's a better solution than religious intolerance! Please do something about it.

no it's not better solution. It's not a solution a tall. Bringing it to extreme, discussion of evolution could be marked as religious intolerance too...
Post 27 Feb 2007, 10:00
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MichaelH



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MichaelH
Quote:

MichaelH: you know the solution... don't take part in topics you don't like.


That's just a comment from a weak admin who is too afraid to do anything in case someone gets angry at them. As you can see by what has happened the participants agreed that their behaviour was out of hand and have gone about rectifying the situation themselves. However it frustrates me that it took me to get angry to get people to change things. Next time save me the stress and do your job!
Post 27 Feb 2007, 20:53
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