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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
I have decided to make a post here to discuss a mod's decision of weather or not to lock potential problem threads before they become out of control. I find that certain threads become very close to becomming flame issues, but don't become locked and it distresses me that these boards are just waiting to be divided by opposing opinions about sensative issues such as Religion and Politics. Now a nice friendly conversation about them won't cause any problems, but when you start talking about specific things like "Bush is a moron" or something like that, there are people offended. When people are offended, they start to attempt to affend the offender. These often turn into more serious insults and end up causing people on the boards to hold grudges, when this happens flaming and proper operation of a site can fail. Can anyone explain to me why they do not see this or what they see that overrides this?
Post 01 Jan 2007, 22:15
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Tomasz Grysztar
Locking the thread doesn't in any way solve the problem behind it, so what is the sense of such action?
I like when there are some people able to add some fresh thought into a stuck discussion.
Post 01 Jan 2007, 22:33
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
i just renamed this thread to more descriptive name. Awaiting more opinions on this topic.
Post 01 Jan 2007, 23:01
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
Both the donationcoder and asmcommunity forums tend to disallow politics/religion, since those threads have a tendency to blow up badly...

I think the best solution on this forum is for the faint of heart to avoid threads that too much for their emotions.
Post 01 Jan 2007, 23:58
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Quote:
Locking the thread doesn't in any way solve the problem behind it, so what is the sense of such action?
I like when there are some people able to add some fresh thought into a stuck discussion.


Neither does talking about it if it's out of our hands. We can't do anything about Bush, North Korea, Saddam's death, or even God or other sensative matters. All it does is tick everyone who reads it off, and starts up an arguement that results in half the forum holding a grudge against the other half. Years ago, in america, there were topics as sensative as this that split up families. Then came the civil war. Now, i don't think there will be a major war killing people just because of things said in these posts, but it can interrupt the smooth operation of the boards and even help more flame battles start alot more easily. I'd be surprised if there hasn't been any flame battles here because of some of these topics.

Quote:
I think the best solution on this forum is for the faint of heart to avoid threads that too much for their emotions.


That's the idea, avoid them. if they are brought up, lock them. If they keep bringing it up, they're just starting trouble purpously. You don't want it to escolate too far, and with all the saddam and bush things being posted lately, it is starting to make me a little angry, hence why i'm saying lock it before i end up blowin' out as well. It's hard to ignor topics that tick you off if you don't know what you're getting into, by the time you're already in it you're already ticked off enough to stay and shoot off your mouth. I know this from experience, and if you just wait till fire spouts from everyone's mouth, you're twice as likely to have some one go awall (sp?) and just get fed up and either leave or just starting trouble resulting in a possible ban needing issued. We have plenty of places to vent our opinions on hateful propoganda, we don't need to vent it here on a community where you try to build things. Personally, i feel that this place is for assembly, coding, and perhaps some other issues, but sensative issues have their own place. I wonder how long a talk on abortion would last before some one sprouts and insult.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 00:15
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
So..... kohlrak wants to end the fasm forum tradition of intelligent debate and start flame wars ...... that's sad Sad
Post 02 Jan 2007, 00:46
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
A tradition of starting flame wars isn't exactly a very happy one. I don't mind intellegent debate, but certain issues rarely end with a calm crew.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 00:48
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
kohlrak: you still ignore fact that people learn from such discussions. Many people here are very well educated in certain aspects of history, and we can learn from them.

and tom still has a point: How to separate which topics should be disallowed? What if I want to discuss Marx's economic theories?

You should see that this board is more like community than technical board. Thats what we have Heap for. You don't have to read it, if you are not interested in other people's opinions. For us others, we want develop our own opinions, and test them against others' arguments.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 01:06
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Well some issues have a tendancy to bring out strong emotions of anger. Are you saying that you would allow topics such as rape to float around without locking for a long time if they don't go into detail? I personally see that some topics are potential threats to the smooth running of the community. The name "Bush" has become as offencive as the words "Jew", "Honkey", "Gook", "Jerry", and some other things, only "Bush" isn't a racist term, but still just as offencive to some, especially when people hear him being slandered behind his back. And that's just one of the issues that need to be avoided, but Bush is the issue i've been seeing here lately, and i've seen some pretty nasy things said about him on other places, and not as nasty, but still nasty things said about him here. Now i don't stick up for people picking on Iraq's citizens or even terrorists. Those topics too should be avoided. I feel that some topics should be avoided all together, because some of them almost always end up in disaster. The war in iraq, bush all together, abortion, anything you find on the news is a bit radical. It should be the opinion of the moderators which threads to lock, but they should at least see some of these threads as a potential threat of the smooth running of the community.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 01:58
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
Maybe I shouldn't say this but perhaps some good will come of it.

I've been reading the fasm forum for nearly three years now but have noticed since kohlrak has exploded on the scene and gate crashed every single thread posting complete nonsense, I find myself not enjoying coming here any more Crying or Very sad
Post 02 Jan 2007, 04:35
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
perhaps nonsence is mearly nonsence because you fail to see the meaning behind it.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 05:50
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
I'm open to the suggestion my intelligence is lacking and hence I do not see your great wisdom but perhaps there is also a chance I'm correct and you post too often!
Post 02 Jan 2007, 06:47
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Perhaps not a lacking of intellegence as you assume that i'm saying, but a mear misunderstanding of my words. As for my post rate, it is based on a notification system. If the fact that i reply alot is an issue to you, then i'll disable the notification thing for myself so i don't get instant notification every time a post that i was in was replied to, but this topic is not about me, but about the locking habits of the moderators.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 07:16
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Tomasz Grysztar
kohlrak wrote:
If the fact that i reply alot is an issue to you, then i'll disable the notification thing for myself so i don't get instant notification every time a post that i was in was replied to, but this topic is not about me, but about the locking habits of the moderators.

Instead you can try to take your time and use it to read the vast archive of the discussions happening here in the past. Especially the assembly-related ones! (And yes, I've got this strange feeling that this thread is still also about you, not only about the locking habits - which in fact were non-existent here in the past and it never was a problem).
Post 02 Jan 2007, 08:22
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
kohlrak wrote:

That's the idea, avoid them. if they are brought up, lock them.

Not what I meant... If you see a political thread, just stay out of it if you know you can't handle it.

kohlrak wrote:

It's hard to ignor topics that tick you off if you don't know what you're getting into, by the time you're already in it you're already ticked off enough to stay and shoot off your mouth.

Yeah well, this is the intarweb - don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Now, political and/or religious threads often lead nowhere; in the extreme situations either people end up patting eachother's backs, or massive flamewars erupt, and everything turns into an opinionated soup of shit. If you can't handle that, just stay out of the discussion.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 08:25
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
Quote:
Are you saying that you would allow topics such as rape to float around without locking for a long time if they don't go into detail? I personally see that some topics are potential threats to the smooth running of the community.
If the topic will for example analyze rapists thinking, behavior, methods, suggest prevention and treatment... why not?
If it would be anyhow supportive for them - i would lock it. Because raping is bad in my eyes. Talking about politics and religion isn't. It shifts society towards, and breaks rule of old "masters" and sets new ones who are better to people. Those people who tabooized these problems were the ones who refused this improvements, often for their own profit.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 09:24
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
This thread purports to identify the advantages of censorship. I vigorously oppose all attempts to block those who repudiate my thinking about XOR. I am HAPPY that so many contributed ideas COMPLETELY the opposite of my own thinking. That's how we LEARN, by reading ideas contrary to our own. I am grateful to Tomasz for permitting all manner of ideas to float about on this forum. vid mentioned Marx, one should not forget that FASM, including this FASM forum, represents a THREAT to capitalist mentality. You need not take my word for it, simply look to the history of CP/M, and you will find that corporate interests will strive to destroy competition. America loves monopoly power. Censorship represents uniformity of motion. ONE idea, ONE cause, ONE belief. In summary, if the FASM forum were to "lock down" particular threads, simply because someone submitted a message deemed offensive by a particular group within FASM, perhaps even an OVERWHELMING majority of FASM forumer's, there would never have been any discussion about XOR!
Wink
Post 02 Jan 2007, 10:47
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Quote:
Instead you can try to take your time and use it to read the vast archive of the discussions happening here in the past. Especially the assembly-related ones! (And yes, I've got this strange feeling that this thread is still also about you, not only about the locking habits - which in fact were non-existent here in the past and it never was a problem).


I've been directly insulted in one of those posts, actually. Perhaps you don't consider what this user said as an insult or a potential problem, but i surely do. Perhaps that it's not me in general that's the problem, but that my opinion itself in many subjects (including this one) seems offencive to everyone else. No offence, but i thought we're all starting to pride ourselves that the fasm community can handle opposing opinions.

Quote:
Not what I meant... If you see a political thread, just stay out of it if you know you can't handle it.


Not all of them are so obvious. "The world is waiting for..." that started to go political.

Quote:
Yeah well, this is the intarweb - don't wear your heart on your sleeve.


Well they have "moderators" for a reson. They don't just remove spam. That attitude says that they have no purpose.

Quote:
Now, political and/or religious threads often lead nowhere; in the extreme situations either people end up patting eachother's backs, or massive flamewars erupt, and everything turns into an opinionated soup of shit. If you can't handle that, just stay out of the discussion.


When they end up in the "soup of shit" it ends up dividing the boards if there is enough people involved and enough people with opposing opinions.

Quote:
If the topic will for example analyze rapists thinking, behavior, methods, suggest prevention and treatment... why not?


Well, if you're a rape victim and the subject didn't have a nice little warning on it that you're about to be reminded of things that haunt you, you'll end up being reminded of things that haunt you. I must ask, then, that if you guys ignor such threads in the heap, what your purpose for even being a mod if there is only ever a few junk posts that have no meaning and need cleared up.

Quote:
If it would be anyhow supportive for them - i would lock it. Because raping is bad in my eyes. Talking about politics and religion isn't.


Talking about abortion is no different than rape, only that it's abortion, rather than rape. Many people (though not myself) beleive that rape is something that's fine. Just like abortion is seen as fine. Just like being crazy maniac is seen as fine by some. Abortion is a political issue, perhaps Bush isn't as hateful as a topic as rape or abortion, but at the same time some people did vote that guy in, and anyone who voted for him and still supports him would be highly offended by garbage said against him. Some of the attacks i've seen against Bush aren't exactly treating him as if he were a human being, and that offends me. Is opposing any of your other opinions bad in your eyes?

Quote:
It shifts society towards, and breaks rule of old "masters" and sets new ones who are better to people. Those people who tabooized these problems were the ones who refused this improvements, often for their own profit.


And the "new masters" are the ones who take over for their own profit, but this is for another discussion.

Quote:
This thread purports to identify the advantages of censorship. I vigorously oppose all attempts to block those who repudiate my thinking about XOR. I am HAPPY that so many contributed ideas COMPLETELY the opposite of my own thinking. That's how we LEARN, by reading ideas contrary to our own. I am grateful to Tomasz for permitting all manner of ideas to float about on this forum. vid mentioned Marx, one should not forget that FASM, including this FASM forum, represents a THREAT to capitalist mentality. You need not take my word for it, simply look to the history of CP/M, and you will find that corporate interests will strive to destroy competition. America loves monopoly power. Censorship represents uniformity of motion. ONE idea, ONE cause, ONE belief. In summary, if the FASM forum were to "lock down" particular threads, simply because someone submitted a message deemed offensive by a particular group within FASM, perhaps even an OVERWHELMING majority of FASM forumer's, there would never have been any discussion about XOR!


But unlike the political issues that i'm talking about locking, your issue is under our control, since it is us. Bush is out of our control, Saddam is out of our control, Rape is out of our control, Abortion is out of our control, the environment is out of our control, even. I could come up with more examples. I have a simple rule to follow, if it is out of our control and talking about it won't make any difference except hearing different opinions and no actual change can be done, and if it is sensative, it's locked. That's my personal opinion, and how i myself would moderate. I'm mearly giving my opposing opinion to how the forum should be run, and that is something in the power to some of the people reading this to change. Yet they're changing the topic, saying they don't like it. Heck, if vid didn't ask for this topic's reaction, it probably would have either been locked, deleted, or some one else would have asked for this one to be locked, or am i wrong on this? May i point out that one of the topics that i wanted locked (actually, the one where we came out shaking hands) is one where i wasn't alone in wanting the topic locked.

Now i'm not pickin' on any of you in particular, but it appears that you guys like opposing opinions, and here i'm giving one that's a little more close to home than some of you (actually debating the moderator's opinions) so some of you see that as more sensative that politics i guess. I guess that the "problem" with me is that i oppose the opposition. You like to hear opinions that oppose the norm, but can you handle opinions that oppose the opposition of the norm? As for marx's theory... I actually support communism to some degree. My opinion on communism is not for here, though. This is for the opinion of how moderators should decide what needs locked and what dosn't.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 12:14
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vid
Verbosity in development


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vid
kohlrak wrote:
I've been directly insulted in one of those posts, actually. Perhaps you don't consider what this user said as an insult or a potential problem, but i surely do.

could you be specific about the insult?

Quote:
but that my opinion itself in many subjects (including this one) seems offencive to everyone else. No offence, but i thought we're all starting to pride ourselves that the fasm community can handle opposing opinions.
i don't remember anyone seeing some of your opinions as offensive.

Quote:
Not all of them are so obvious. "The world is waiting for..." that started to go political.

so after you noticed, you can ignore it. or ignore all political comments and don't respond to them, if you dislike political discussions.

Quote:
Well they have "moderators" for a reson. They don't just remove spam. That attitude says that they have no purpose.
purpose of moderators is more than just censoring unwanted discussions and deleting spam. Now, i (as moderator here) could have taken this as insult. (i didn't - successful insulting me is way harder Wink )

Quote:
Well, if you're a rape victim and the subject didn't have a nice little warning on it that you're about to be reminded of things that haunt you, you'll end up being reminded of things that haunt you.

and if you are victim of car crash? should we ban discussion about cars?

Quote:
[...] Some of the attacks i've seen against Bush aren't exactly treating him as if he were a human being, and that offends me. Is opposing any of your other opinions bad in your eyes?

sorry to feel offended, but you must get over it somehow. For example someone may be offended by discussing masturbation on TV. Should TV completely censor this topic, just because of few individuals? Tom gets offended by someone using xor to zero registers. Should we ban using xor because of that? How about linux vs. windows?

You see, there is always something that can offend you, and instead of closing your eyes, you should calm your mind and face the problem.

Quote:
But unlike the political issues that i'm talking about locking, your issue is under our control, since it is us. Bush is out of our control, Saddam is out of our control, Rape is out of our control, Abortion is out of our control, the environment is out of our control, even.

so we shouldn't discuss things like MASM, common programming habits, linux pros and cons, just because they are out of our control?

Quote:
Heck, if vid didn't ask for this topic's reaction, it probably would have either been locked, deleted, or some one else would have asked for this one to be locked, or am i wrong on this?

there were so few lock requests on "hot" topics before, that i'd say you are wrong. Tomasz pointed this out already.

Quote:
May i point out that one of the topics that i wanted locked (actually, the one where we came out shaking hands) is one where i wasn't alone in wanting the topic locked.
i think the second request was initiated by your request. Still, most of involved people liked to discuss further.

Quote:
Now i'm not pickin' on any of you in particular, but it appears that you guys like opposing opinions

sure we do Wink
it's great way to widen our range of knowledge.

Quote:
and here i'm giving one that's a little more close to home than some of you (actually debating the moderator's opinions) so some of you see that as more sensative that politics i guess. I guess that the "problem" with me is that i oppose the opposition. You like to hear opinions that oppose the norm, but can you handle opinions that oppose the opposition of the norm?
we like to hear your opinion on this subject. This is still a productive discussion which can make the board policy clearer for both us and you. But opposing opposition of norm, means, to enforce the norm. And yes, i don't like enforcing any opinion on anyone.
Post 02 Jan 2007, 13:18
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
tom tobias wrote:
I vigorously oppose all attempts to block those who repudiate my thinking about XOR. I am HAPPY that so many contributed ideas COMPLETELY the opposite of my own thinking. That's how we LEARN, by reading ideas contrary to our own. I am grateful to Tomasz for permitting all manner of ideas to float about on this forum.

I completely agree with tom. This is a free forum - every member is allowed to voice his/her mind, whether it is a minority view or popular opinion.

When a message contains offensive or indecent materials, the mod or admin would take appropriate measures against it. We should trust his/her discretion. And it is up to the members of this board to judge whether the mod or admin is exercising his/her power correctly.

YONG
Post 02 Jan 2007, 13:34
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