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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
I decided to post this here, instead of HLLs, because this is a bit less of a serious coding topic and more of a humerous one.

I'd like to start off with that I have respect for the programming teacher in the local school, and i think that the following may be a result of teaching him wrong, bad course outlines setup by some one else, or a mixture of both.

1. First week of programming one(C++), i see binary on the board. I get excited thinking that the course is low level. I find out it's actually for the java class. Was it explained to us? Nope, infact, from looking at the course book, i don't expect we'll learn the binary operators in either of the two C++ programming courses. Considering java all runs through the JVM and how the variables are set up in java (the compiler just looks at what you want to put in them and decides type for you it appears), i don't think binary will benefit them at all, verses in C++ where it can be used to make things alot simpler for sending values to certain functions that require "flags."

2. Recently i asked former C++ students in this course, they don't even know what a DLL is... Considering that DLL is an important part of C++, i am appauled.

3. I mention ASM to this guy this year and last year, and he has a very bad opinion of it. Interesting comments like, "I don't want to have to worry about all those registers."

4. He emphasises that if code gets lengthy (not neccesarily reoccuring, but lengthy) you should put it in a function. By the way, we still havn't learned the #define keyword and this is how he views that coperate people tackle debugging in C++ (reminds me of the term, "Spaghetti code" and even more emportantly, the effects jump statements have on verticle pipe lining).

I could come up with more, but any more info would be rediculous and you would feel sorry for what i have to hear everyday in a course that i already know, but i took because i thought it would have information that i didn't learn that i could benefit from... I guess i was wrong, but i'll continue to programming two so i can put it on my resume, but this does make me feel kinda sorry for myself. lol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:36
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
typical theoretist. ignore them.

someone who haven't ever written anything big, can't teach others how to do it. I would rather undergo Randall Hyde's asm course than one more fuckard like this. In 2 years at university, i had more than enough of them. And then, people like Tomasz are teaching *math* at universities....

somehow, this is exactly the topic of last dailyWTF: http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/106950.aspx
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:51
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
Well, like i said, i don't think he was properly educated, and i know the course material (which wasn't written by him) isn't exactly written by anyone intellgent either, unless, of course, it was written to write slow code to help slow down windows to make the next version of windows seem faster or to sell hardware, cause that's what this all ends up pointing to.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:55
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
The university is just to get a degree, then you forgot everything you learnt at there Very Happy (well, actually you must select only the invalid content to forgot, not all is bad but unfortunatelly "the concepts" are more important than workable code/programs :S)
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:59
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
i'm learning assembly through a collage course book called, "The art of assembly." I don't have enough experience to contradict anything it says, but so far of what i heard seems to be pretty lagit.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 01:06
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
It's from famous ASM guy called Randall Hyde. He was pretty active times ago.

Then he designed his own language, somewhere between ASM and C, and uses it to teach assembly (which isn't right IMHO). His tool allows you to write HLL style code, with predicable resulting ASM code. It's something like original C many years ago.

Problem with him is, that he makes lot of fame for his language saying it is assembly, and many people hate him for that (especially Betov, author of RosAsm)
Post 15 Dec 2006, 01:26
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
So, essentually, i shouldn't trust his book too much? lol Actually, i've gotten to a point in it where he just starts rambling about how to use certain instructions... I think it's chapter 5 or 6, and it is starting to get annoying and boring, hence why i started to start coding without looking at it. My guess, is that all i need to do is understand how to use the I/O functions and maybe a breif tut on string functions and i should be good on my own without any tutorials, just a list of instructions.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 01:34
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
it is annoying and boring, but it's a good book. Feel free to trust it. He has just becomed slave of his own tool, and is propagating it too much, even with dirty ways etc. But let's leave this, this is topic for yet another flamewar.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 01:48
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
kohlrak wrote:

My guess, is that all i need to do is understand how to use the I/O functions and maybe a breif tut on string functions and i should be good on my own without any tutorials,
I would urge you to trek up to your local library, the public library, not the school library, and ask the reference librarian there to assist you with an interlibrary loan. The title you want is this:
Introduction to Assembly Language Programming by S.P. Dandamudi, (2005) Springer publisher, 690 pages, ISBN 0-387-20636-1
Post 15 Dec 2006, 11:56
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
tom: man, why are you so obsessed with Dandamudi's book. Open your eyes, it's not the only one. I'm not saying it's a bad book, but be more open Wink
Post 15 Dec 2006, 21:01
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zhak



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 490
Location: Belarus
zhak
kohlrak, the things that take place at your highscool are awful Sad and more awful, that the same things take place everywhere. When I played with ATA/ATAPI some years ago, I accidentally wiped out MBR on my hard drive (only one byte was wrong, he-he). I came to my university teachers asking for any asm compiler, but the answer was: we don't have one. we don't allow students to use asm in classes because they can destroy data, blah-blah-blah.... I was stunned! And it is the university of informatics and radioelectronics I always wanted to study at........
Post 15 Dec 2006, 21:36
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
don't use something, because it can be used in wrong way. "can be". These people should realize that idiotproof programming is trend just because there is need for crap programmers to code crap bussiness applications.

Programmers should not afraid of something just because it CAN be misused.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 22:07
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
zhak wrote:
kohlrak, the things that take place at your highscool are awful Sad and more awful, that the same things take place everywhere. When I played with ATA/ATAPI some years ago, I accidentally wiped out MBR on my hard drive (only one byte was wrong, he-he). I came to my university teachers asking for any asm compiler, but the answer was: we don't have one. we don't allow students to use asm in classes because they can destroy data, blah-blah-blah.... I was stunned! And it is the university of informatics and radioelectronics I always wanted to study at........


That's why i am doing as much teaching as he is in his class. I'm trying to not outdo him. Because of my recent realization and a recent call, i've decided that it might be right to change my education path so i can teach computer programming courses (cause it's so easy to get a teaching job for it in america, cause in my state you don't have to have a programming course to teach it in pulic schools) and maybe people would learn more. I found out how he got hired. they were just starting to approve computer programming at the time, and no one wanted to teach it. He's got his degree in teaching and science. He started teaching years ago knowing nothing, and he came out and admitted it to me in class today infront of everyone. If some one like this can get hired, imagin how fast they'd hire some one who knows what they're talking about.

Quote:
don't use something, because it can be used in wrong way. "can be". These people should realize that idiotproof programming is trend just because there is need for crap programmers to code crap bussiness applications.

Programmers should not afraid of something just because it CAN be misused.


ASCII 7 ("The Bell" or \a in some programming languages) comes to mind... Could you see a school highering a disassembler to take out that escape sequence from the compiler then writing a check into the program to see if anyone ever gets a value of 7 then disables it? As for the top part, i coudln't say it any better myself. Take a look at windows... i heard XP was coded ENTIRELY in C++ (though i doubt that's true, i do beleive it was coded mostly in C++). Even the highschool teacher says that as long as he can read the code, we can use any tactic we please to speed up the code, but he has absolutely no clue how to do it himself.
Post 16 Dec 2006, 03:06
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Ehtyar



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 51
Ehtyar
As far as idiot teachers go, I'd say get used to it. And also, be prepared for it to get even worse if you attend a community college. Only one out of four of my teachers knew a single instruction and it's purpose, and my vb teacher couldn't tell me how one might import an API into a .net application. Pretty sad huh.

Ehtyar.
Post 16 Dec 2006, 23:08
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
Wow... XD Heck guys. If you need a job, get a teaching degree at the local uni, a math degree, then come here. My state only requirers a math degree and a teaching degree.

EDIT: I'm looking at the intro sections of my course book and this is amazingly political sounding... It's like HLL verses ASM is political in some kind of way.

Quote:
An important advance in occurring in the 1960s was the development of programming languages. Previously, computers had to be programmed by rewiring different switches to their ON or OFF positions. THe first programming languages, referred to as low-level languages, used 0s and 1s to represent the status of the switches (0 for OFF and 1 for ON). THe lowest-level language was called machine langauge and consisted of directly typing in 0s and 1s, eliminating the time-consuming task of rewiring. However, accurately typing instructions consisting of only 0s and 1s is extreemly difficult to do, therefore high-level languages were developed that allowed programmers to write in English-like instructions.


Am i the only one insulted by that?
Post 17 Dec 2006, 00:31
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
kohlrak wrote:
Am i the only one insulted by that?


Well, manually entering 0s and 1s isn't quite what we do. We have "macro" assemblers now using mnemonics, structs, bitfields, SIZEOF, HLL control structures (if, else, while), plus lots of other "goodies" that you can technically live without (see Brainf*** for a minimal, Turing-complete language). Face it, HLLs ain't all bad, but it's just not for everything (why does no one REwrite their program, or part of it at least, in ASM??).
Post 18 Dec 2006, 00:43
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
rugxulo wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
Am i the only one insulted by that?


Well, manually entering 0s and 1s isn't quite what we do. We have "macro" assemblers now using mnemonics, structs, bitfields, SIZEOF, HLL control structures (if, else, while), plus lots of other "goodies" that you can technically live without (see Brainf*** for a minimal, Turing-complete language). Face it, HLLs ain't all bad, but it's just not for everything (why does no one REwrite their program, or part of it at least, in ASM??).


Yea, but from the way i see it, 1s and 0s and 00 through FF is machine language, and instructions like mov is assembly. It kind of makes it look like we're so obcessed that we'd learn 0s and 1s and program windows insanely like that, when we have HLLs. That insults me. I remember my programming teacher asking me directly, "Do you like that assembly stuff?" It kinda hints that i'm kinda insane for learning it. Books like these make us look obcessive, at least that's how i see them making us look.

As for not using asm at all in their code, not sure. Heck, beleive it or not this book was how i found otu that there is an __asm keyword in visual studio, but they didn't include the __ (probably to purposely cause an error to unnerve us from using assembly code, because that's what it seems like they want).
Post 18 Dec 2006, 02:00
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
kohlrak: you aren't the only one, for sure. where do you have it from?
Post 18 Dec 2006, 06:16
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
School... He said it came with "the old version of visual studio" which was VS 6.0, but i don't recall getting this book. Anyway, it's called "A guide to Programming in C++." It's printed by Lawrencevill Press and at the the credits go to "Tim Corica, Beth Brown, Bruce Presley." Well, we now know who's books not to read.
Post 18 Dec 2006, 06:57
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