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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Post 12 Dec 2006, 23:35
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
i am afraid there is nothing to do about it, as long as world is driven by capitalistic people and ideas
Post 13 Dec 2006, 00:23
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Well, we can reduce the rate of fossil fuel usage by changing our lifestyle a little bit. For example, shut down your computer NOW to cut down electricity consumption! Sadly, doing so could only delay the meltdown by, say, a couple of decades. As long as we maintain our "modern" way of living, there is no turning-back - global warming WILL CONTINUE!

YONG
Post 13 Dec 2006, 12:44
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
vid wrote:
i am afraid there is nothing to do about it, as long as world is driven by capitalistic people and ideas

However there are also people that think that it's the global warming concensus that is driven and supported by capitalistic people and ideas. Wink

Quote:
Good effects are the opening of the maritime routes and the economic boom for Canada and Russia.

So I guess Canada and Russia should be happy with global warming?
Post 13 Dec 2006, 13:37
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

However there are also people that think that it's the global warming consensus that is driven and supported by capitalistic people and ideas. Wink


Indeed! In fact I can not believe how the majority of people have swallowed such a stupid theory without even questioning it. It's a great time to be a scientist wanting money for research, no matter what they want the money for (maybe just a holiday), just put the words "global warming" in with the request for great wades of money and they've got it Smile

Here in New Zealand we've just come through the coldest winter ever recorded. Records go back well over a hundred years.

When I first heard of the global warming theory and rising sea levels, my first thought was the massive increase of sea surface area would increase condensation, there would be more rain and hence, like a giant condenser, the earth would cool down.

But really all we're experiencing is the natural fluctuating world temperatures that have been occurring since the beginning and I don't really believe the earth's temperature will change much in a human's life span.

As for worrying about fossil fuel emissions, what little old NZ could do to improve our emissions would probably be undone in less than an hour as the mighty US of A puffs out it's endless population, so until they change their ways, is there any point in worrying about it. At the rate they're burning the worlds oil it'll all be gone in 50 years and the non existent global warming problem will be gone as well.
Post 14 Dec 2006, 00:15
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
MichaelH - I agree 100% with your view. Nature, by far, puts more carbon monoxides and dioxides in the air/atmosphere than any man made devices (automobiles, factories, etc.). Vulcanoes alone spew more "polutants" than all the factories and automobiles combined. The largest source of methane gas in the atmosphere comes from cows, yes, cow asses.

In my opinion, your observation that we're seeing a normal and natural (minor) periodic rise in temperature, which will be followed by an equally minor drop in global temperature in a few years or perhaps decades is spot on.
Post 14 Dec 2006, 01:12
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
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f0dder
There's been reports for and against global warming - in the end the reports for end up sounding most credible. And there's more than just carbon mono/dioxide in the equation... I'm not a scientist, so I won't even pretend I understand the full picture.

I just know that (and this is subjective, I haven't looked at statistical data Smile ), the winters in .dk seem warmer and warmer from when I was a kid back in the 1980'es - we hardly have snow in December anymore, and I can jeans+tshirt in August and even October.

Natural fluctuations? *shrug*. Something is happening, though.
Post 14 Dec 2006, 01:51
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
All global warming is, is an interesting study on mass hysteria.

Another recent mass hysteria in New Zealand was the thought that the ozone hole was the cause of increased skin cancer. It is now thought to be stupid to go out for long periods of time without protection in the midday sun. No one ever points out that it has always been stupid to go out for long periods of time without protection in the midday sun and the increase in skin cancer was probably more to do with the fact that we all forgot this point and went out for long periods of time without protection in the midday sun, causing an increase in skin cancer .... DUH!

It was all made crystal clear to me how powerful mass hysteria can be when some bright spark said to me, (note, NZ is in the southern hemisphere), the sun is in the north, the ozone hole is in the south, so how exactly can the sunlight pass through the ozone hole and hit New Zealand .... answer, it can't, it was all mass hysteria and so too is global warming.
Post 14 Dec 2006, 02:18
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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vid
all i wanted to say is that while money/power is the force that drives mankind, no one will ever care about environment.

I don't really have any good info about specific cases (like global warming).

I was just answering question about what/if we can do something about environmental problems
Post 14 Dec 2006, 03:20
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Global warming, amoung the list of many theories that aren't questioned. I don't hear carbon dating questioned that much, either, but i don't know much about that, but i'm assuming it's based on the assumption that carbon forms on things at the same rate no matter where it's burried. Personally, i see that we beleive too many theories, that are based on other theories, which are left unquestioned. I heard a theory that global warming melts the ice over 20% faster recently "than before." I question how anyone knows what "before" was like, considering we'd have to know how long the Earth was around to figure that out, and that we really havn't found proof of. We can sit and argue for a long time over how old the earth really is. The governments places enough rules against pollution and such all the time, so i don't feel that we should even care. lol At the rate things are going, the follow rule should apply: "No matter if you beleive we lived here for thousands of years, or millions of years, we've still been here that long, so we shouldn't be able to destroy it in less than 100."
Post 14 Dec 2006, 03:45
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
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MichaelH
As I've said, I think global warming and fossil fuel emissions being problems we need to worry about is total nonsense. It frustrates me that while the world spends so much time and money on a complete nonsensical theory, animal species are continuing to be wiped from this earth on a daily basis and nuclear waste piles higher and higher along with aging nuclear reactors ..... yet the world thinks next to nothing of it.

A few years ago an ex Australian prime minister by the name of Bob Hawke was pushing an idea that Australia, with the most geological stable rock in the world, could make money out of burying the worlds nuclear waste in the Australian outback. Then December 26 2004, just above this geological stable rock in the Indian ocean, the entire sea floor collapsed and we all know what happened. Imagine this occurring and the worlds buried nuclear waste being pushed up and floating around the worlds seas. What's the alternative, put it in space.... how???? What if the rocket carrying it exploded and we had nuclear waste floating around the worlds seas?

Yet the world just doesn't want to stop producing the stuff ...... how are we gonna fix this problem????? ...... OH that's right, it doesn't matter cause global warming is occurring Sad


Sorry about the negativity folks but really, lets all start talking about the real problems so maybe something might get done about them.
Post 14 Dec 2006, 03:56
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
MichaelH wrote:
As I've said, I think global warming and fossil fuel emissions being problems we need to worry about is total nonsense. It frustrates me that while the world spends so much time and money on a complete nonsensical theory, animal species are continuing to be wiped from this earth on a daily basis and nuclear waste piles higher and higher along with aging nuclear reactors ..... yet the world thinks next to nothing of it.

A few years ago an ex Australian prime minister by the name of Bob Hawke was pushing an idea that Australia, with the most geological stable rock in the world, could make money out of burying the worlds nuclear waste in the Australian outback. Then December 26 2004, just above this geological stable rock in the Indian ocean, the entire sea floor collapsed and we all know what happened. Imagine this occurring and the worlds buried nuclear waste being pushed up and floating around the worlds seas. What's the alternative, put it in space.... how???? What if the rocket carrying it exploded and we had nuclear waste floating around the worlds seas?

Yet the world just doesn't want to stop producing the stuff ...... how are we gonna fix this problem????? ...... OH that's right, it doesn't matter cause global warming is occurring Sad


Sorry about the negativity folks but really, lets all start talking about the real problems so maybe something might get done about them.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, true. Here's an interesting idea... When we used to use oil in the past, we used to discard alot of it, now we use all of it. Perhaps, later on, we'll find a productive usage to our nuclear wastes, but no on ever thinks of trying to find a way to do that. The thing we should really be concerned about is dishonest politics and the fact that despite how close they've been to finding a cure for so many years, why they havn't found one yet. (And i know that you know what cure i'm talking about.)
Post 14 Dec 2006, 04:01
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cod3b453



Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 619
cod3b453
to much writing havn't read what anyones said but heres what I remember about global warming:

1) Global warming is mainly caused by carbon dioxide (CO2) [mainly from man] and methane (CH4) [mainly from cows] these reflect/absorb the infrared (IR) radiation that gets reflected from the surface

2) This trapped heat causes heating of the sea and atmosphere

3) The heating ohf the atmosphere means it has more energy which means big storms and lots of damage

4) The heating of the oceans causes a rise in sea level due to thermal expansion which means a LOT of landmass could be under water

5) There are pockets of methane under the sea and carbon dioxide dissolved in the sea (the seas are becoming more acidic as a result) if the sea temperature rises further an insane amount of methane will be forced up. methane traps 4 times more IR than carbon dioxide.

6) When the sea is saturated with dissolved carbon dioxide all our emissions will go straight into the atmosphere and accelerate global warming. a lot of sea life that produces oxygen from carbon dioxide will also be dead.

7) More sea water will evapourate which means more cloud and rain and storms etc

8] Tidal patterns such as the gulf stream could change which means warm water from hot places that goes to cold places doesn't go there any more and the cold places freeze over. hence most of europe could be desert like siberia.

9) Weather patterns are changed, diverting rain to other areas, this has happened in europe and africa already.

10) The effects of global warming are dampened by air travel, the vapour trails cause global dimming which causes global temperatures to drop BUT the carbon dioxide produced to make the vapour trail outweighs the vapour trail. this was shown after 9/11 when all the planes in US were grounded and average temps went up about 3°C across the board in just 24h.

11) The bad news is that global dimming has been happening for decades, hiding the true extent of global warming. another big factor is tress which have absorbed a LOT of carbon (and are too becoming saturated) BUT

12) On land temperatures will rise across the hot countries nearer the equator causing forest fires or turning them to deserts and therefore a LOT more carbon dioxide ends up in the atmosphere

13) volcanoes and other source of dust/soot (cars etc) also cause global dimming because they block IR, as well as contribute to acid rain and cabron dioxide emissions

14) we are coming out of the current ice ace (they occur every 30,000 years or so on a natural cycle) if the rate of global warming was normal then the ice ages would only be a few thousand years which we know arn't

Summary: googling Global Warming, Global Dimming, Nuclear Winter, Asteroid Impact Winter, Carbon Stored in Trees (Carbon Sequestration?). Some bits apply, some don't. basically earth could end up 10°C warmer on average with huge storms and end up mainly desert with a good splash of acid rain.

So some places get HOTTER some get COLDER some will get HOTTER then COLDER or vice versa. basically everywhere gets warmer then hot places (near equator) get hot and cold places (near poles) get cold because of the effects above.

I would say that there's some pretty logical stuff being said and there's a chance if the entire "modern" world flips a switch on their act and exercises both energy conservation/efficiency and renewable that the situation would improve...im not crossing any fingers though.

bottom line is WE won't know until it's too late...theres always the flipping of the poles to worry about in a few centuries time...man are we gonna need a big magnet

@kohlrak: radio carbon dating is pretty well founded. carbon-14 has a half life of about 5000 years (or something) and so an object can be dated back many thousands of years becauses its one of the most common and most stable unstable nuclear isotopes. e.g. if 1% of carbon is roughly C-14and theres only 0.5% C-14 (half the amount before) you know its about 5000 years old.

and there are a few ways to tell what earth was like before including rock layer analysis and ice pole drilling which analyses air trapped in ice to establish the makup of the atmosphere. i think this had some evidence that global warming was happening too....something along the lines of there has never been this much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere before or something...
Post 14 Dec 2006, 05:39
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1421
Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
cod3b453 wrote:
@kohlrak: radio carbon dating is pretty well founded. carbon-14 has a half life of about 5000 years (or something) and so an object can be dated back many thousands of years becauses its one of the most common and most stable unstable nuclear isotopes. e.g. if 1% of carbon is roughly C-14and theres only 0.5% C-14 (half the amount before) you know its about 5000 years old.


From what i gather, they measure the amount of carbon on it, and considering that carbon is more abundant in some places than others (hence why we can't just drill for oil anywhere), i think it's rather obvious that if they're measuring the amount of carbon on an item, it's bound to be a really unstable process. I won't comment the global warming thing because it's getting late here, but i must point out that for the ice caps to melt from CO2 ouputs near the equator, we need to be burning our guts out all year long before then, cause the energy spreading out would dicipate, rather than keeping the same "intensity."
Post 14 Dec 2006, 05:54
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Thanks cod3b453, I needed a good laugh Smile

The best one by far is this one -

Quote:

The bad news is that global dimming has been happening for decades, hiding the true extent of global warming.


I don't care what anyone says, that's humour at it's best Smile
Post 14 Dec 2006, 20:58
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
I just heard on the radio today that Switzerland is having trouble with their glaciers, and that there's been an acceleration in their decline since 1995... I don't think that global warming is disputable, even if you're not agreeing on the cause.

And well, even if you should be right (which I don't think Smile ) and pollution doesn't have anything to do with the warming, there's other bad effects from pollution, so it makes sense to decrease it.

But of course we could all just say screw it, the Koyoto deal is retarded, "we're all living in Amerika", who cares, we own the damn planet and it's not OUR problem since there won't be major problems for the next few generations anyway Rolling Eyes
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:35
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
i say, screw it, because everyone else is worrying about it (especially government officials in particular who are trying to get popularity in a democracy or republic) and we have enough things to worry about. We have our lives, (we in particular) have our code to worry about, (and especially for computer skilled people in america, but not limated to them) our jobs, our families, our friends, political issues, conspiracies, and other things. We don't need to add the inevitable, yet unsolvable, to our list of problems.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 00:42
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Well f0dder, we'll probably never agree on the global warming thing but I just love it when you beat up on Americans Smile

I'd like to meat the scienctist who come up with the "global dimming hiding global warming" thing, that's just brilliant Smile
Post 15 Dec 2006, 01:20
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cod3b453



Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 619
cod3b453
MichaelH wrote:
Thanks cod3b453, I needed a good laugh Smile

The best one by far is this one -

Quote:

The bad news is that global dimming has been happening for decades, hiding the true extent of global warming.


I don't care what anyone says, that's humour at it's best Smile
Confused what's funny about that?
Post 15 Dec 2006, 13:38
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Here's a series of relavent articles compiled by CNet:
http://news.com.com/2038-12_3-0-topic.html?id=7927&name=Global+warming&tag=st.bp.topic

Most seem to argue for global warming as a serious concern.
Post 15 Dec 2006, 18:48
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