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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
Do not blame the American people for the worlds problems, just because they are the biggest world power, The American people are some of the nicest people i have met, the American public do not want there son's or daughters killed in far away lands, anymore than Iraqi's want there son's or daughters killed (and remember most people killed in Iraq, are not killed by American soldiers ).
If your a soldier, you go where your told to go.

And we all know Americans carry a big stick, but if you ask me to choose any country in the world to carry that big stick, i would still feel the safest with it in the American hands.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 18:45
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
i wouldn't... after the intervention ?Yugoslavia? (not sure how to spell it).
Post 01 Nov 2006, 19:12
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
@vid, So who would you choose, if you had to choose one country ?
Post 01 Nov 2006, 19:29
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Reverend



Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 408
Location: Poland
Reverend
Every country has some mess, unfortunately. In Poland, people in government responsible for education are ultra-nationalists, and are against darwinism/evolution. That's sick, and I think that the best thing to do is just not to get too involved in this political crap. Just for your own sanity!
Post 01 Nov 2006, 20:21
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
Maverick wrote:
Give their people the same dignity you give to your people. Give them their land.


Give them their land... Yes, the infamous Israeli occupation.

Ok since we are discussing occupied territories now, we surely must know the historical background:

About 2000 years ago Roman Empire ruled the Palestine (Roman and Greek name for the area). During this period the Roman Empire has killed or forced to leave most of the Jewish population and after two thousands years Jews were only ~10% of the overall population and Muslims became dominant ethnic group. In 19th century Jews started to return to the Palestine and the grow of Jewish population began to take momentum. The Jews started to buy lands from Arabs, and Arabs eventually realized that the Jewish population in such temps will became the new dominant ethnic group. All this led to a huge revolt in 1930 which were initiated by Arabs against British (they occupied the Palestine at that time) and Jews. The revolt was suppressed. However since the British were meant to leave the area, both sides quickly realized that they need to form a organized military formations to defend themselves from each other after the British leave. The Brits left in 1947 and UN resolution proposed a division plan for the territory: ~55% for Jews and ~45% for Arabs.. Jews obviously accepted the resolution, and established the State of Israel. However Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon were opposed the resolution and initiated an assault on Israel ("The Independence War"). Jews won the war, and many Arabs located in Israel started to flee into neighboring countries.
At this point (1949) Palestinians started a guerilla war against Israeli settlements, which led to Israel military actions against Palestine, which in return led into even more terror attack from the Palestinians... In 1964 militant group from Lebanon formed by Yasser Arafat joined in attacks and in 1968 (or maybe 67 I am not sure) two terrorist attacked Israel civilian aircraft in Beirut and killed one. Israel revenged by destroying ~10 civilian aircrafts in Beirut (only machinery were destroyed, no people hurt). In 1972 after the Munich Olympic's Massacre, Israel decided to invade Lebanon in order to eliminate the terrorists responsible for the attack. In 1976 the same organization hijacked Israeli plane with 100 people aboard and flew it to Uganda. (fortunately almost all of them were rescued). After a few other incidents Israel has launched another operation against Lebanon. The new terrorist organizations started to form, attacks increased,
And the saga continued up to the present time...
And it will probably continue for eternity. Because, you see, Israelis believe that they are entitled to the land known as Israel since according to Judaism, Yahweh (the God) gave them the land; while Palestinians believe that they are entitled to the land known as Palestine since according to Islam, Allah (the God) gave them the land. There is one slight problem however, 'Israel' and 'Palestine' refers to exactly THE SAME geographical area. So you proposition of the return of occupied territories would be rather hard thing to accomplish without ceasing to exist.
(and I hope you don't mean Golan Heights as the occupied territory the Palestinians wish. since it's a completely different story)

In defense of Israel government, I must say, unlike Palestine's one it did tried to live in peace. However since the whole West Bank and Gaza Strip is practically runed by terrorist organizations, which _suprise_ _suprise_ have quite a different definition of peace than you and me, it wasn't possible.
Palestine autonomy in its current stage is driven solely by hatred and by terrorist organization with only one aim which may sound so innocent and rightful on the media: "the end of occupation".

Dignity you say.
Do you know what would happen if I take my bike, drive to the nearest PA city and take a walk on the street? I will be beheaded instantly. Do you know what would happen if a Palestinian visited Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv or any other city? Nothing. Literally nothing.
Dignity you say.

Quote:

US invasion of what country? Iraq? But Iraq had less than nothing to do with Al Qaeda and terrorism, for CIA itself admission. I think there's some royal confusion around here. The twin towers attacks were used just as a pretest to make this long-wanted war. It's a Bush family and friends affair, nothing else.

Le me ask you this: do you give a BEEP that 655000 Iraqi people have died so far for this latest stupid useless endless war? Do you? That's about 15% of the population of your country. Do you care at least a bit? How many new holocausts must there be?

And what benefits did this war bring to your people? Let away to the USA one.


Who said anything about Iraq? I was referring to Afghanistan.
As for the Iraq invasion, unfortunately I haven't followed the 'story' and neither have any in deep knowledge on the subject, so I can't discuss this issue.
But since you asked about my fillings regarding the death toll. I will answer anyway. Even despite the fact that I don't see any relevance of death toll in Iraq and the population of Israel.
Children in Africa die in dozens per day, every fifth women is being sexually molested, hundreds of Iraqis die every month.. All of this is tragic and wrong, and if it was depending on me I probably would have tried to make it stop. However it' a cruel world and bad thing happen. If I would felt bad for every time a person in this world gets hurt I probably would committed suicide a long time ago.

I can't speak for 'my people', But I will say what the war in Afgan. brought for me: a peaceful sleep, knowing that myself, and my friends from US and different parts of Europe are safer now from those fanatics.


Last edited by arafel on 01 Nov 2006, 20:37; edited 1 time in total
Post 01 Nov 2006, 20:22
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
Maverick wrote:

And about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I think that no government really wants to solve the problem, because it's not in their interest. It's not in the interest of Iran, of Siria, but neither of Israeli (if it means to give back most of the land) nor of the USA one (so that they can keep their troops there and make a new stupid war when the arm industries need to earn some more money).


Of course Israel don't want to give away the Golan Heights (which it occupied during the war initiated by Syria by the way) since both Iran and Syria claimed quite openly that Israel has not right to exist and should be wiped form the face of the earth. The moment Israel returns the GH it has signed it's own death-warrant.

Quote:

Anyway, let's not get in fight here (I don't say it to you HyperVista because I think it's far from being necessary to say it, I rather meant it to other fellows who may be mad at me, like arafel),


Everyone is entitled for their own opinion. And I respect that. I have no reason what so ever to be angry at you or any other discussion participantand I think neither of my posts showed the opposite.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 20:32
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
arafel, first you join this thread and blurt out complete hatred for others different to yourself ..... now you're giving us a lesson in history as seen through the eyes of arafel ..... man the world is in worse shape than I thought Sad


BTW, if some of you don't like the term crusade.... tough, I call it as I see it!
Post 01 Nov 2006, 21:27
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
MichaelH wrote:
arafel, first you join this thread and blurt out complete hatred for others different to yourself .....

We are probably living in a different dimensions, since I don't recall writing anything even remotely resembling a hatred for others.
Wait. Maybe the remark about rightness of US invasion in Afgan. catch your eye? Then yes, I consider Al-Qaida members different from myself and I am not ashamed to blurt bad words in their direction.

Quote:

now you're giving us a lesson in history as seen through the eyes of arafel .....

It's a lesson in history as seen through numerous historical evidences and world wide approved facts. Before you start accusing someone in truth distortion at least read a book or two so you will have facts to backup your opinion.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 22:11
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote: arafel -

Quote:

If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.


Hatred for others different to yourself! .... plain and simple and I'm ashamed at myself for trying to make light of your statement and replying to it with what I thought at the time was humour. My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 22:32
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
MichaelH - I respect your opinion.

Quote:
BTW, if some of you don't like the term crusade.... tough, I call it as I see it!


In the interest of enlightened and civil discussion, can you give us your thoughts on if this is in fact an American crusade against muslim, why haven't muslims in America been arrested and deported or put into concentration camps (like the Japanese were during WWII - point is America is capable of it). If this is a crusade, why haven't American legislatures banned the Islamic religion and mosques boarded up and locked? If this is a true crusade, why are muslims allowed to immigrate to America to work and/or study, even post 9/11? A true crusade is easiest implemented at home, if this is a crusade by America against muslims, why haven't we seen ANY of these things right here in America?
Post 02 Nov 2006, 03:13
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
MichaelH wrote:
Quote: arafel -

Quote:

If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.


Hatred for others different to yourself! .... plain and simple and I'm ashamed at myself for trying to make light of your statement and replying to it with what I thought at the time was humour. My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended.


Oh, so indeed you meant that remark. Just to make it clear it wasn't humor, but neither was a mockery of Islam as you obviously think. I merely tried to illustrate the point the the only thing terrorist organisations do is to inforce their customs on other people and seed fear. It's even more than just enforcing, it's either you convert or die. It doesn't really matter whether it's Al-Qaida from Afghanistan, Hamas from Palestine, Hizbollah form Lebanon, or Scholl Girls United form Japan. It just happens that in this case it's an 'Islamic' extremists.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 07:50
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
"to inforce their customs on other people and seed fear. It's even more than just enforcing, it's either you convert or die"

Sorry arafel but that's plain bullshit. Since you talk about history, you should know that were Christians that enforced with the sword the conversion. When Islam ruled Europe, they proved to be MUCH more tolerant in this (and many others) regards than Christians. Jews do not enforce their religion on others probably because they are the "The Elected People", and thus don't give a beep about the other people which evidently are inferior in the eyes of God. So I still think Islam is still, by history, more tolerant than Judaism and Christianity towards the other people they happen to rule.

But the real point I'd like to do, before quitting this thread definitely, is that all the blame IMO goes to religions. If we remove this plague then I see no differences between a Jew and me, an Arab and me, and between each other. If we don't, then the Jew is the one elected by God, then Arab is the one that will get tens of virgins in heaven if he makes himself a martir, etc.. all as stupid as it can be.

Thanks God I'm atheist!
Post 02 Nov 2006, 08:11
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
HyperVista, if arafel's comments are not proof to you that all is not well in the US, then I see no point in continuing this debate.

I want to thank Maverick for his efforts to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 08:48
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
Maverik,

I am not talking about religions!

Islam and Islamic Extremists Formations are not the same thing and I do realize the difference between the two. However many people don't and that's probably the reason why a number of people here interpreted my words against terrorism as a crusade against Muslims.

I am not familiar with the plank of tolerance in different religions. But perhaps you are right, and Islam historically were more tolerant. However it still doesn't change the fact that particular groups of people in this world live by idea of: convert or die. This is not the way of Islam. (nor Judaism btw. Yes, I actually read both Quaran and Torah. and, no, I don't belong to any of those religions. I am atheist too). The problem that such groups have very perverted interpretation of their own religion and it basically lowers the plank to the minimum.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 12:02
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
comment moved to us/muslim conflict topic ....
Post 02 Nov 2006, 12:29
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Hi MichaelH.


Quote:
Quote:
HyperVista, if arafel's comments are not proof to you that all is not well in the US, then I see no point in continuing this debate.





errrrhhh .... arafel lives in Jerusalem, Israel, not the US. so i don't get your point.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 12:35
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
i did quick research about prices of oil in USA. correct me if i am wrong. price of oil in USA has risen from 25$ to ~80$ dollars per gallon (189 litres) in last 3 years. I'd quess USA called this a crisis.

quess what is price of oil here... it's about 200$ per gallon. And out wages are about 5 times lesser! Well-paid programmer earns about 1000$ a month. Average wage is about 600$... and this is stupid average algo sum_of_wages/number_of_people, where one milliionaire has bigger effect on result than 100 normal people.Real average wage for normal people is maybe 400$. Situation is not much different in other euoropean countries.

i leave implies about oil usage to you.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 12:42
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
vid, yep!! you are absolutely right. this goes back to my comment about strategic reasons for the invasion of Iraq as a hedge against the growing threat from Iran. I think the US policy makers saw the growing power of Iran in the region and the relative weakness of Iraq and saw an opportunity to establish a "democracy" beachhead in the region as a block to Iran taking over control of huge supply of world oil. the fear being Iran would use oil as an economic weapon against the US if they take control of Iraq oil fields. My belief is they moved into Iraq before the Iranians did so to block control of the oil fields and to provide protection for Saudi Arabia at the same time. they simply used the excuse of "war on terrorism" or "weapons of ass distruction" Laughing as an excuse because the had to "sell" it to the US population somehow.

the US definitely needs to curb the waste of oil. I know people who jump in thier cars to drive only two blocks just to get a cold drink. Some neighbors living next to each other and work in the same building complex drive to work separately, etc. the US is a automobile centric society.
Post 02 Nov 2006, 13:24
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
there is some power growing in Iran?
Post 02 Nov 2006, 14:55
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
you didn't see those pictures of guys dancing around on stage with enriched plutonium some months ago? they're pushing full ahead with nuclear weapons development despite UN and world wishes to the contrary. their current leader believes it's his destiny to bring about some predicted Islamic revolution by starting the "end of times" via world conflict..... yeah, that's the kind of leader you want with access to nukes. oh yeah, and he's been spouting something about incinerating Israel....

some recent news:
http://tinyurl.com/yyd8qv
Post 02 Nov 2006, 15:26
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