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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
MichaelH wrote:

It's a shame Britain got lead into George Bush's crusade against Muslims

If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.

Britain is a great country, with great customs, mentality, a history that is the envy of the world, and high economical influence. But, I couldn't agree more with you Dex4u about its current state. Its political system is a mess right now, and unless something will happen and happen soon, it will be lost forever...
Post 31 Oct 2006, 12:16
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.
yeah, or people from USA would have to stop wasting 40% of world oil supply
Post 31 Oct 2006, 12:36
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4633
Location: Argentina
LocoDelAssembly
Quote:
If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.


However the "crusade" was so "succesful" that now we can spect all that mess even before 2020 and much worser things like a 3rd world wide war...
Post 31 Oct 2006, 15:48
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
LocoDelAssembly wrote:
However the "crusade" was so "succesful" that now we can spect all that mess even before 2020 and much worser things like a 3rd world wide war...
The reasoning behind Bush is a false claim. Like vid said, he did it for the oil. Americans are greedy, and selfish. But then again, I don't blame the americans, I blame the people -- everyone in power and politics does just the same thing.
Post 31 Oct 2006, 15:54
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8903
Location: ˛                             ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣Posts: 334455
sleepsleep
those politicians like to treat us like stupid idiots Mad
maybe earth would get peace only when abundance of new form free everlasting resources are found. Crying or Very sad
Post 31 Oct 2006, 16:19
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
LocoDelAssembly wrote:
However the "crusade" was so "succesful" that now we can spect all that mess even before 2020 and much worser things like a 3rd world wide war...

US presidency did not initiated the world wide turmoil we all witnessing now. It has been brewing for a long, long, time already and Bush's campaign merely gave an acceleration to it.
The current situation is similar to holding a jar of nitroglycerin under your bed. Its irreversible. The jar WILL blow up. The only question whether you will prefer to go every night in bed and hope that it won't be that day or take your chances, remove the jar and have a peaceful sleep every after.
Post 31 Oct 2006, 16:30
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
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Dex4u
The_Grey_Beast wrote:
everyone in power and politics does just the same thing.
I agree power corrupts Mad
Post 31 Oct 2006, 16:32
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.



That's why I'm so mad at George Bush, I was really looking forward to wearing a sheet on my head, I think it's a must have fashion accessory Wink ..... you have a vivid imagination arafel.


Quote:

yeah, or people from USA would have to stop wasting 40% of world oil supply


Yes Vid, time the world stood up and started politely asking the US to stop steeling our oil! ..... however I guess they've got the big guns (and clearly not afraid to use them) so maybe not Sad
Post 31 Oct 2006, 22:02
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Don't misjudge America on what you hear. Stealing oil? Ridiculous. I don't follow politics, don't understand it, don't want to get involved, but please, don't believe every bad thing you hear: it's not always true!

You don't like our president? Well, you didn't vote for him, did you? So don't worry, you aren't to blame. He's only human, he's not perfect. Remember, there will be someone else in two years. Will you blame him/her too? Must there always be someone to blame for everything? Is anyone really perfect?

Anger is the weak man's form of power. Don't let it control you (or grow to even more dangerous levels). Please, be kind, be patient, and pray to God for all world leaders and an end to all wars.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 04:54
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Quote:

Don't misjudge America on what you hear.


I don't know whether to laugh or cry Sad

Quote:

I don't follow politics, don't understand it, don't want to get involved, but please


Yet you thought it wise to try to educate others ....

But rugxulo, it's OK, this level of complete apathy/ignorance is the usual US input Sad

BTW, I do follow politics (specifically US politics). I watch the whitehouse briefing most days. I take various news feeds from many world news source so understand the US view as well as many opposing views.

Have a nice day rugxulo
Post 01 Nov 2006, 07:23
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
arafel wrote:
MichaelH wrote:

It's a shame Britain got lead into George Bush's crusade against Muslims

If he hadn't started his "crusade" as you call it, by year 2020 you probably would have started to take 4 a.m. prayers, dress your wife in Hijab, and watch occasional executions of 'Sharia code breakers' on the streets.

Every serious analyst would tell you that you will indeed do all of that in 2020 thanks to these stupid crusades.
And if I were in you would think a bit about treating Palestinian people a bit better than beasts, because your country is bringing the rest of the world into hell. We western countries are giving our blood to defend you, for what? Your leaders politics is as wrong as Bush's one. Pray (in whatever religion style you wish) that we allies don't get tired some day.

_________________
Greets,
Fabio
Post 01 Nov 2006, 08:55
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
Every serious analyst would tell you that you will indeed do all of that in 2020 thanks to these stupid crusades.

sure, because they had those weapons of mass desctruction, right.
whoops, they didnt? Oh no, you get wrong. This was about freedom of attacked country, not about weapons.

Movie "Team America: World Police" expresses my opinion greatly.

Politics is always dirty. Normal people seldom want to get into politics, and even then they cannot survive without dirty tricks. And those which use dirty tricks usually haven't devoted their lives to world happiness, more like to their own happiness.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 11:54
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
Maverick, let me ask you this: what would be your solution to Israeli-Palestinian crisis?
Post 01 Nov 2006, 13:24
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
while i have serious reservations about the US policy that lead to the invasion of Iraq, i would like to offer one suggested change to the discussions assumption that this is a "crusade against muslims". it is not. this is a knee-jerk reaction to a terrible terrorist attack.
the US protected muslims in Bosnia. you don't see mosques burning in America as you see churches and synagouges blowing up and burning in muslim countries and in some cases across Europe. it's instructive to point out that many of the church burning incidents arose from someone merely "saying" something against the muslim religion or writing a book unfavorable to the muslim religion (Sahlman Rushdie). America doesn't have issues with the muslim religion, only terrorists who bend the muslim doctrine to their philosophy. this is NOT a crusade against muslims.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 13:46
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arafel



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 131
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
arafel
Thank you. At least one sane person here remembers the actual reasons behind US invasion.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 14:19
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
arafel wrote:
Maverick, let me ask you this: what would be your solution to Israeli-Palestinian crisis?
Give their people the same dignity you give to your people. Give them their land. Two states. Both people have a right to a state, not only your people has (but indeed it has).
Come on, be honest: do you think Palestinians have been treated fair in the last xx years?

And if it was for me, I'd start banning all damn religions from the face of the Earth, for the good of everybody. They only bring fanatism in the end, whatever is the religion, it doesn't matter.

_________________
Greets,
Fabio


Last edited by Maverick on 01 Nov 2006, 15:05; edited 1 time in total
Post 01 Nov 2006, 14:59
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
arafel wrote:
Thank you. At least one sane person here remembers the actual reasons behind US invasion.

US invasion of what country? Iraq? But Iraq had less than nothing to do with Al Qaeda and terrorism, for CIA itself admission. I think there's some royal confusion around here. The twin towers attacks were used just as a pretest to make this long-wanted war. It's a Bush family and friends affair, nothing else.

Le me ask you this: do you give a BEEP that 655000 Iraqi people have died so far for this latest stupid useless endless war? Do you? That's about 15% of the population of your country. Do you care at least a bit? How many new holocausts must there be?

And what benefits did this war bring to your people? Let away to the USA one.

_________________
Greets,
Fabio
Post 01 Nov 2006, 15:00
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
I agree, and believe me, most Americans believe the war in Iraq is not only a mistake, it is flat-out wrong. Just watch the upcoming mid-term elections for proof of that.
You have no argument from me on the issue of Iraq invasion; the pretext for it. My point is that it's not a crusade against muslims. Personally, I believe it was a grudge Bush had against Sadamm for trying to have his father assisinated after the first gulf war. I also believe they wanted to establish a "democratic island" in the region as a hedge against the growing threat from Iran.
it is terrible that so Iraqis have died in this war (not sure about your numbers, though), but please keep in mind many of those deaths resulted from sectarian violence between muslims (Shia killing Sunni and vice versa).
many Americans believe clearing Afganistan of the Taliban was the right thing in response to 9/11. similarly, many, many know that Iraq was the wrong thing.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 15:55
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Maverick



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Citizen of the Universe
Maverick
I too don't think it's a crusade against Muslims, absolutely. Money drives powerful people, and important families from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have been good friends of the Bush family, and were more than evidently Muslims. The use of the word "Crusade" was very unhappy, whatever Bush and/or his staff wanted to achieve, since the mid-east people remember very well how Crusaders treated them and their women and children when they went there.
While we fully agree on the part that it's not a war against Islam, however, I don't really think the Bush administration aimed at estabilishing a "democratic island" in the region, because it would have been an utopia. Democracy cannot be neither exported nor enforced, only when the people is deeply aware of its value then it will born and self-sustain. And look at our democracies, they're far from perfect, although we have a certain experience in the field (but I also recall that few tens of years ago we (in Italy, Germany and other western countries) had the worst dictatorships ever seen, so what do we want to teach? and enforce it, either!). A people that is not "mature" enough for democracy will never be able to self sustain it. Saddam Hussein, with all his many defects, at least ensured a certain degree of stability and security to the Iraqi people. Now it's probably much worse than before, even about freedoms in general.
Also, in Afghanistan (were a military intervent was justified, as you point out) Talibans are getting back more and more power and control (expecially in the south), it seems like there's something wrong.
Vietnam is a forgotten experience it seems, expecially by those politicians that didn't even bother to go there.

Anyway, too many innocents are dying for nothing but the dirty interests of dirty plutocrats. Call it democracy.. I don't think I live in a democracy. The idea of exporting this fake democracy by massacre of millions of innocents makes me sick.

And about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I think that no government really wants to solve the problem, because it's not in their interest. It's not in the interest of Iran, of Siria, but neither of Israeli (if it means to give back most of the land) nor of the USA one (so that they can keep their troops there and make a new stupid war when the arm industries need to earn some more money).

Anyway, let's not get in fight here (I don't say it to you HyperVista because I think it's far from being necessary to say it, I rather meant it to other fellows who may be mad at me, like arafel), it's not worth, we're just being used by "our" respective leaders for their own - often dirty - interests. In the end it's always the normal people who pay the price for the leaders' mistakes. I would never like to get into a war with any of you, I think we all have better things to do with our life. We could be brothers, best friends if we were grown together. All this thing about wars is plain stupid and sooner or later also outdated, hopefully.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 16:13
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
nicely said, Maverick.

i agree with you, especially with regard to "implanting" democracy. i love my country and i have many freedoms, but congress and the politicians do pretty much as they wish. its seems to be all about big money and special interest lobbies. there seems to be very little difference between republicans and democrates. Dex4U's discussion on the education system in Britain resonated with me because there is a similar situation here in the US education system. Only the very rich can afford the best education for their children here. the public school system that educated the nasa engineers to put a man on the moon no longer exists. there is an ever growing gap between the poor and very rich in this country and it's due largely to regulation and de-regulation of industries in this country at the hands of congress and special interest groups. this situation has grown over many years and through both republican and democratic control of the house, senate and whitehouse.

just this morning when i woke and began to shake the sleep from my mind, i had growing concerns for my own son who is just 16, soon to be 17. i worry that he may have to go to iraq or afghanistan to fight. i can't stand the thought of that.

when i say i believe they tried to establish a "democratic island" in the region, i don't mean they did it to be the nice guy and establish a utopia. i mean they wanted to do it for strategic reasons .... like that game stratego. to block or gain strategic advantage in the region for thier own goals.

you're right, we programmers have better things to do with our time.
Post 01 Nov 2006, 16:50
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